Recurrence of battery failure

[drdiesel1]

I think he was just trying to get rid of car problem he knew nothing about.  Horrible way to treat a customer.  This "short trip" excuse is basically nonsense (unless something is defective - in which case they should fix it!).  As soon as the key is turned to ON (not even Start) the HVB gets connected to the car and the DC-to-DC converter starts charging the 12V battery.  The HVB starts the ICE - not the 12V battery.  As far as I can tell, once the key is ON the 12V battery never discharges, everything is powered by the HVB & ICE.  See this post.  For the "short trip" idea to hold, the trips would need to be very short (maybe 1 minute) and in between each one you'd have to run lights/radio/etc for a considerable time.  That DC-to-DC converter can put out a lot of charge current.

If you can't DAZZLE them brilliance, BAFFLE them with BS :lol2:  I think you're absolutely 110% correct.

This is an all too common issue when dealing with people in the WRONG job.

[SanDiegoDP]

I'd like to make a suggestion (and I see it is mentioned to some extent in another thread)... .After reading many of these posts, I am struck by the direction of focus regarding this problem as being caused by a "bad battery", or a problematic drain on the battery. 

 

Perhaps there _have_ been unintended problematic drains on the battery in some cases, but in other cases possibly not.  So I would like to ask if any of the Ford technical people, or service technicians, or any of the posting public here has considered the possibility that the 12V battery is not getting charged properly while the vehicle is operating.

 

If this were the case, then over time, a perfectly good battery would be drawn down to failure.  Vehicle operations could appear be fine one day as "12V" voltage and current supply was just enough to operate the startup systems, then the next day, (still not getting charged) it's below threshold, and no go.  You would then think that you "suddenly" had a problem.

 

This scenario would lead to an easy jump start because it would not take much input current to pull the weak 12V battery up enough to operate the startup systems.  ...and I see that in many cases this "easy jump" is reported.  (This is probably why a small jump start power pack is able to pull the voltage up enough to restore system startup.  If the 12V battery were solidly dead, one of those little power packs wouldn't stand a chance of budging the dead 12V battery into the lifelike state suficient to rouse the vehicle.)  Once re-started, if the 12V battery continued to receive little or no charge during vehicle operation, another failure would be soon to follow.  .. and in some cases this is the case.  Also, as low voltage was setting in, other auxiliary systems might start acting flakey (like the windows not going up all the way, or the auto-up button not working, or clock not behaving properly, etc... as has been mentioned throughout these posts...)

 

So I would like to suggest that someone look into whether the 12V battery _charging_ functions are operating correclty.  A simple diagnostic would be to put a voltage logger on the 12V system and plot the 12V level as a function of time between these persistent failures.  For example a logger which can be set up to record 32,000 data points at 10 second to 12 hr sample intervals) (http://www.amazon.com/Measurement-Computing-Voltage-Data-Logger/dp/B001ELC6H4/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1425274405&sr=8-10&keywords=voltage+logger) Connect this to one of the 12V ports, and let it record voltage readings until the next "dead battery" failure.  At 10 minutes between samples, you could record for 7 months before filling the recorder record.

 

The record of how long the voltage took to fall form nominal 12V to failure levels will give a huge clue as to the nature of the problem.  A voltage drop-off over a few hours would suggest an unintentional high current drain (several amps or more).  A fall-off of several days suggests an unintentional drain of many 10's of mA.  A fall-off over a week to month, including some driving along the way, suggests the battery is not getting any, or enough, charge during vehicle use, and this would conclusively direct attention to the charging systems.

 

Those of you with the most problematic vehicles have the most valuable test subject available.  If you get failures every month, it would not take long to obtain this telling voltage vs. time record.

 

Forgive me if this has alrady been discussed.

 

I'm seriously considering buying a C-Max, but found this battery issue while doing my pre-purchase "homework" on the vehicle.  So I'm a bit concerned by it.  I'm very glad to see all of you sharing your experiences and working to remedy the situation.

 

Regards to all.

[Adrian_L]

Welcome to the forum DP.   It's a very good suggestion, but as far as I know both parasitic and charging issues have been ruled out.  Also, a member noticed a few months ago that his battery was healthy at 2 a.m. and dead at 6 a.m.  Something seems to be draining the batteries fast, and it always seems to be in the morning after the car has been sitting for several hours.

 

What you suggest would be similar to a bad alternator in a conventional car---which would lead to weak batteries and then dead batteries at various times (say after sitting in a parking lot for 2 hours).  That doesn't seem to be the case with the C-max (and mostly with the SE model).

 

I have the SEL and the car has been flawless in a year of ownership. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by Adrian_L

[Cmax lover]

I have a CMax 2013 SE and at 9,000 miles started having dead battery problems. (last year) Car would be dead after sitting in the garage all night.  This happened 3 times.  After tons of back and forth trips to dealers and lots of frustrations, I contacted the BBB autoline.  A Ford engineer came and looked at it and did TSB'S on it and after that, it's been fine.  My car was manufactured Nov. 9, 2012, which was the bad timeframe for problems with this car.  If I had traded it in, I would have lost $5,000+.  I couldn't do that.  I may have problems in the future, but I'm crossing my fingers.

[SanDiegoDP]

As I read through some of the later posts in this thread (that I had not yet read as of my first post above last night), I see there has been some very good work done in diagnosing the problem back around pages 10-14.  Since the cable connector and water penetration issues do not seem to account for all the events, I would offer the suggsetion that the voltage logger I referenced above (see also Measurment Computing USB-503)  link:  

http://www.mccdaq.com/usb-data-acquisition/USB-503.aspx?t=1#revhash

could be used to help locate offending intermittent parasitic load that kills people's batteries in the middle of the night.

 

The problem in locating this offending current draw seems to be in large part knowing when the rare offense is happening.  The voltage logger has the ability to register an alarm condition if the monitored voltage drops below a user-selectable value.  Unfortunately, this particular (affordable) logger just flashes an LED when the alarm condition is met.  However, it is a pretty simple matter to add a phototransistor could be taped over the alarm LED which can then activate an audible alarm when the alarm LED flashes. 

 

So when the beeper goes off (at say 4AM when we're all at our very best to start debugging stuff) because the logger detects voltage below say 9 to 10V, you can come down and start snooping for the offending device.  If we're lucky it's a pump or fan that you'll hear that's drawing the multi-amp load needed to kill the battery in a few hours.  If we're unlucky, one might have to resort to pulling fuses to isloate the offending circuit branch as someone previously suggested. 

 

With an Amp-clamp in place durnig the failure, one could record the load current at the time of drain, and capture that valuable bit of data.  (That might give Ford a clue as to which modules are suspect because they can figure out which modules would be nominally drawing that much current when active.)  With the amp-clamp _and_ the voltage log, one could watch how fast the battery voltage goes down.  This would provide a clear indication of the state of the battery capacity.  If the battery has been compromised by too many deep draw-down cycles, or perhaps too much overcharging, or possibly even to many rapid charging events, then the voltage will drop faster than expected for a given load current.  

 

(Side note for those interested... There are some good articles e.g. BU-201, BU-201a and BU-806a at   This is a very good site with many technical details about many kinds of batteries.  )

 

At the very least, if you can't get any debug info at that moment, the alarm might just let you rescue your vehicle by turning it on and recharging the battery before it falls below critical system startup voltage.

 

If someone would like to cobble together such an alarm and needs help, feel free to let me know and I will gladly help you.

 

Regards.

[JAZ]

Above post references Battery University.

 

http://batteryuniversity.com

[SnowStorm]

Great ideas.  Current can also be measured this way without using a clamp.  Here's my alarm which does have a beeper but has a problem beeping when its really cold.  I used some old carbon composition resistors I had so they may be drifting - they are getting replaced.  As you can see, there were no replies to this topic so doesn't appear to be much interest in actually doing anything.

[SanDiegoDP]

Hi SnowStorm.  Nicely done.  I wouldn't have guessed that you could get such a nice clean measurement of the current draw by looking across that short ground cable as a shunt sense resistor, but there you have shown it.  (If you put a battery powered instrumentation amp on that, then you could read the output with any common meter.  You might not even need an instrumentation amp, but a simple op amp gain stage since the source impedance is so low.)

 

I would think that a lot of users would appreciate and use your voltage alarm design, but many are probably not as handy with a soldering iron as you are.  If it were packaged up neatly and could just plug in to a 12V port in the cabin like an old fashioned lighter, I bet you would get some takers.

 

I have another question/suggestion: has anyone done a post mortem on one (or more) of the failed 12V batteries?  (It's a bit messy, so I would hope that Ford would be doing this.)  If the battery lost capacity due to persistent undercharging and/or excessively deep or frequent draw-downs, then it would show sulfation of the negative plates.  If the battery has been damaged by excessive _rate_ of charging, then corrosion of the positive plate should be evident.  If the battery were damaged due to persistent excessive overcharging, then loss of electrolyte should be evident.  (If the issue is just the rare parasitic load draining the battery once, then the batteries should be dinged but more or less ok ... and it sounds like Ford is onto this case as they test the battery capacity now before giving out a new battery after a DOA event.  ... but the batteries that test dead/low-capacity contain valuable information.)

 

I'm just guessing that the battery has sustained multiple draw-downs (due to these various quirky loads) that have gone undetected until the battery capacity has dropped so much that it can't hold up under the load that results in the DOA event.  That's where your current monitor would be great to have in place at all times.  It would be showing the draw-downs that go undetected.  Even just a voltage logger would show when the battery was being drawn upon and when and for how long it was getting charged. 

 

That said, I still wonder if the battery isn't also compromised by being charged too fast.  From what I've read here, it doesn't sound like the vehicle spends long periods charging the 12V battery.  I get the feeling that the DC/DC kicks in and jams a lot of current in for a short time and kicks out, and that could lead to corrosion and loss of electrolyte.  Against that idea though is the reality that a lot of vehicles seem to be doing just fine with whatever methods are being used to recharge the 12V.

[SnowStorm]

I'd say you're right about the op amp.  I thought about taking the project further along those lines but then started looking for something cheap and "off the shelf".  Current monitoring, though, would be a much earlier warning than voltage.  The problem is, the car periodically "wakes up" and does stuff in the middle of the night.  You might have to integrate and do charge monitoring.

 

What you say about battery post mortem is quite interesting.  I don't recall any other comments about it.  Our battery got replaced - the dealer said it was about to leave us sitting - or some such comment.  I don't have any specifics from their tests.  The charging current slowly drops off over time - no sudden shutdown.  I've seen it take two hours to get down to essentially zero.

[william5543]

We have a 2013 C-MAX purchased 9/12 and the 12volt battery has now failed us 3 times.  Completely dead had to be towed each time.  The most recent time was last week while we are vacationing in Florida.  All recalls and "Fixes" have been applied still do not have any real answer to what causes this.

 

One more occurrence and I will be looking to the Michigan Lemon Law.  Really too bad because other than this problem we really love the vehicle.  

 

Does anyone know if the battery problem is only happening on the 2013 models?  I might consider trading up to a newer model.

 

Also will Ford cover the cost of our rental car in addition to the towing charge?

 

Any information anyone can provide would be most appreciated.  Thanks.

 

 

[FordService]

We have a 2013 C-MAX purchased 9/12 and the 12volt battery has now failed us 3 times.  Completely dead had to be towed each time.  The most recent time was last week while we are vacationing in Florida.  All recalls and "Fixes" have been applied still do not have any real answer to what causes this.

 

One more occurrence and I will be looking to the Michigan Lemon Law.  Really too bad because other than this problem we really love the vehicle.  

 

Does anyone know if the battery problem is only happening on the 2013 models?  I might consider trading up to a newer model.

 

Also will Ford cover the cost of our rental car in addition to the towing charge?

 

Any information anyone can provide would be most appreciated.  Thanks.

Hi william5543,

 

Have you already started the Lemon Law process? Please let me know, along with your mileage, so I can see how to best assist.

 

Meagan

[Cmax lover]

William 5543,

   I have a 2013 CMax SE purchased in August of 2013.  Manufacture date was 11/9/2012.  I had 3 dead batteries and my attorney told me the IL lemon law is worthless.  I contacted BBB autoline and they were helpful.  A Ford engineer came to look at my car and spent 5 hrs. with it.  He did a TSB on it and it's been fine since.  Of course, Ford wants you to trade in for something else.  I would have lost $8,000+ if I had. My dealer gave me a rental car (no charge) for quite a while.  Call the Ford tow number and you won't be charged.  If you need both of these phone numbers, let me know and I can give them to you. 

[william5543]

CMax Lover

 

Thanks for the information you have provided.  We are about to go to the Ford dealer here in Florida with our rental car bill and ask that we be reimbursed.  We did use the Ford Road Assistance program for our towing.  In the past when using this this we never had any cost with the towing.

 

Also does anyone know if the problem is occurring on the 2014 or 2015 C-Max?

 

In addition I have responded to Meagan from Ford Service with a direct email.  (See above)

[Cmax lover]

William 5543,

   There are some 2014 models that have had the same problem.  Not sure about the 2015.  Ford reimburses your dealer for the car rental. I forgot to mention I was in contact with the local Ford rep. and she was the one who okayed the car rental payment.  They don't offer it, you have to ask (with determination).  Other than that, she was of no help to me whatsoever.

[Kelleytoons]

William,

 

If you searched all the threads of this forum on battery problems (I'm not advising this, just saying that those of us who have read them over the last six or seven months might have done) the overwhelming conclusion you come to (at least IMHO) is that sometime around January of 2014 they made a major "fix" (or series of fixes) that seemed to solve *most* of the issues.  It also appears the SE model has many more issues than the SEL model (again, IMHO -- part of the problem is hard data is, well, hard to come by).  This also appears related to the equipment package (i.e. those of us with an SE with the MFT package have less battery problems than those without -- that early radio in particular was a killer).

 

None of which is to say that ANY Max, 2013, 14 or 15, and SE or SEL, couldn't have battery problems.  But personally I wouldn't be afraid of any car built after January 14, particularly if it had MFT, and particularly if you were armed with all of the TSBs and other fixes that have been mentioned here on the forum.  The later the build, (and an SEL versus SE) the better.  Will someone here report that they have a 2015 SEL with all options and still have a battery problem after all TSBs and fixes have been applied?  Almost certainly, and it will almost certainly be an anomaly.  

 

Conversely, there are most likely LOTS of 2013 SEs with no battery problems at all.  But for someone whose already been down that road, your best bet (short of solving the problem with your own vehicle) would be to increase your odds with a new one.

[william5543]

Excellent information and much appreciated.  I'm probably going to see if Ford and/or our dealer will offer up something I can live with or I'll end up checking the "Lemon" route and ultimately leaving Ford.  I drove Fords many years ago and after lots of issues back then, I thought I would give them a try again.  Sure hope that does not prove to be a costly mistake.  Living in Michigan I really want Ford to succeed especially with their Michigan built vehicles.

[jamshmi]

This is my first post I live in the Detroit Metro and have a 2013 C-Max SE without MFT, 31K, and it was build before January 2014. I have been following many of the threads because they have applied. To date my C-Max has had six batteries installed in it, the original plus five replacements. Because of an impending ice storm I decided to raise the wipers by placing them into their service position, only to find out that the passenger wiper would not raise off the windshield without interfering with the hood. I took the C-Max into the dealer for this new opportunity, while there to have the passenger wiper aligned the battery went dead. Service diagnosis-it down to a Battery Current Sensor “FV6Z-10C679-B battery manage”. I do hope that this is my last post on this subject, and a side note the color of my C-Max is Ice Storm. ;) 

 

 

 

[wab]

This is my first post I live in the Detroit Metro and have a 2013 C-Max SE without MFT, 31K, and it was build before January 2014. I have been following many of the threads because they have applied. To date my C-Max has had six batteries installed in it, the original plus five replacements. Because of an impending ice storm I decided to raise the wipers by placing them into their service position, only to find out that the passenger wiper would not raise off the windshield without interfering with the hood. I took the C-Max into the dealer for this new opportunity, while there to have the passenger wiper aligned the battery went dead. Service diagnosis-it down to a Battery Current Sensor “FV6Z-10C679-B battery manage”. I do hope that this is my last post on this subject, and a side note the color of my C-Max is Ice Storm. ;) 

Greetings and WELCOME

 

You may have the cmax that Ford has been looking for :worship:.

Your car may be unique, the one that had a real world real time dead battery.

It was on a Ford lot when it failed, they may have never seen one before.

 

As a telecommunications tech my worst fear was to be dispatched on a major problem and there would "no trouble found". Customers just can't understand that high tech seemingly gets well on its own.

 

Again welcome and please give us periodical status reports.

[FordService]

This is my first post I live in the Detroit Metro and have a 2013 C-Max SE without MFT, 31K, and it was build before January 2014. I have been following many of the threads because they have applied. To date my C-Max has had six batteries installed in it, the original plus five replacements. Because of an impending ice storm I decided to raise the wipers by placing them into their service position, only to find out that the passenger wiper would not raise off the windshield without interfering with the hood. I took the C-Max into the dealer for this new opportunity, while there to have the passenger wiper aligned the battery went dead. Service diagnosis-it down to a Battery Current Sensor “FV6Z-10C679-B battery manage”. I do hope that this is my last post on this subject, and a side note the color of my C-Max is Ice Storm. ;) 

Congrats on your first post, and thanks for the update, Don.  :) 

 

I replied to your PM, and let me know if you need anything else!

 

Tricia

[FordService]

This is my first post I live in the Detroit Metro and have a 2013 C-Max SE without MFT, 31K, and it was build before January 2014. I have been following many of the threads because they have applied...

Congrats on your first post, and thanks for the update, Don.  :) 

 

I replied to your PM, and let me know if you need anything else!

 

Tricia

Edited March 27, 2015 by FordService

[Automate]

Service diagnosis-it down to a Battery Current Sensor “FV6Z-10C679-B battery manage”.

 

Interesting, a $50 part. http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/c-max/fv6z10c679b/2013-year/hybrid-se-trim/2-0l-l4-electric-gas-engine/hybrid-components-cat/battery-scat/?part_name=cable

 

Also, even though the power-trains are the same between the Fusion Hybrid and the CMax Hybrid, this part seems to only fit the CMax.  Maybe due to cable lengths being different between the cars. 

[william5543]

Has anyone else had this part replaced?  If so, has it been successful so far?  Our C-Max will be due for oil change, etc when we return to Michigan and I'm planning to ask our local Ford Service Advisor if they have tried this.  I don't believe it was done the other times our car has been in.  I need to check our service records once I'm back home.

 

I will update here if I learn anything.  It sure would be nice to put this issue behind us.

[fourfins]

Unfortunately, after six months and 9,500 miles of driving my 2014 C-max SE, I have joined the bad battery club.

 

I got home from my 50-mile roundtrip commute Friday evening. Car dead Saturday morning. I live in San Diego where there's been no moisture coming out of the sky for a long time. Overnight lows were probably in the mid-upper fifties. I did have a 12 volt phone charger that I have kept plugged in since I got the car. I'll be removing that charger moving forward. 

 

Called Roadside Assisstance and they came out and jumped the car pretty easily. Didn't want to take it in to the dealer as ironically I already had my 10k service set up for Monday morning (tomorrow as I write this), so I'll be bringing up the battery to them on the visit, although it doesn't appear they will be able to do much.

 

Very worried about what happens past five years and no more roadside assistance, and how this will affect the resell value of the car 5-10 years down the line. 

 

No idea when my car was built, but I bought it in October 2014 and it was a 2014 model, so I assume it sat on the lot for awhile. I see references to MFT radio, not sure what that means, but I have all the basic stuff on the car. 

[raadsel]

MFT is My Ford Touch; you have it if you have the 8" touchscreen. As for when your vehicle was manufactured, you can find it on a sticker on the frame of the driver's door, it lists the month and year. If I recall correctly, the sticker is the same one that shows the vehicle weight and capacity.

[fourfins]

MFT is My Ford Touch; you have it if you have the 8" touchscreen. As for when your vehicle was manufactured, you can find it on a sticker on the frame of the driver's door, it lists the month and year. If I recall correctly, the sticker is the same one that shows the vehicle weight and capacity.

 

Thanks for letting me know. I do not have MFT, and my car was built July 2014.