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Best Engine RPM for minimal FE loss.

1 bar burn 2 bar burn RPM

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99 replies to this topic

#41 ONLINE   ptjones

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:43 PM

Over a year ago when I got my CMAX I noticed as well as everyone else on this forum that you don't drive CMAX/FFH like any other hybrid on the market. I personally had 08 and 10 Escape hybrids and I have driven my daughters 2012 Prius. There are several difference including larger Lithium Ion battery, computer charges the HVB very aggressively, higher EV speed , etc.  It seems to me that the computer is programed for the two bar approach and it almost naturally does it. With P&G , 2,000 rpms just is impracticable, maximum EV and minimum ICE gets the best MPG's. :) 

 

Paul


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#42 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

Over a year ago when I got my CMAX I noticed as well as everyone else on this forum that you don't drive CMAX/FFH like any other hybrid on the market. I personally had 08 and 10 Escape hybrids and I have driven my daughters 2012 Prius. There are several difference including larger Lithium Ion battery, computer charges the HVB very aggressively, higher EV speed , etc.  It seems to me that the computer is programed for the two bar approach and it almost naturally does it. With P&G , 2,000 rpms just is impracticable, maximum EV and minimum ICE gets the best MPG's. :)

 

Paul

I haven't really tested the 2,000 RPM thing, but this makes sense to me.  Sure, you may have a momentary improved fuel economy during a lower RPM, but then you have to run ICE for longer to get up to speed.  The important thing is total fuel used during the ICE burn, not how much fuel is being consumed at the moment that ICE is running at a specific RPM.

 

Again, I haven't really tested this, but the best balance seems to be how long ICE runs (not floored, but with reasonable burns) rather than the instant FE of the lower RPM.


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#43 OFFLINE   Jus-A-CMax

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:02 PM

1 3/4 to 2. Also I cannot tell you how IMPORTANT the other factors not discussed here: road condition/slopeage, traffic and weather. Sticking to RPM only and disregarding the other 3 factors is jus a waste of time. As I post in my review, know your roads to max your MPG.

 

Also, I think we're talking pennies here guys. As long as you keep to under or at around the EMPOWER 2 bar burn as I, Matt, Paul and the old hypermilers here, you're doing fine and better than 99% of the other non-forum Maxers who do not have a clue/know.

 

You're killing it!  :)


Edited by Jus-A-CMax, 13 January 2014 - 02:04 PM.

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#44 OFFLINE   MacGyver

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:46 PM

I did manage to get Torque to create a line graph of fuel used, but it's pretty limited, i.e., x=time y=fuel used, but I can't get it to display more than one factor at a time, i.e., fuel used/load/rpms/degree of uphill-downhill, etc.,etc.,etc. so I could easily test and retest the same street using different acceleration curves to determine the most efficient one...

 

There is a "track recording plug in" that WILL display all that info and let you play it back, but then you'd have to create a line graph by hand... maybe I'll get around to that when I'm not in the middle of my busy season, say after march or so.



#45 OFFLINE   MacGyver

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:51 PM

1 3/4 to 2. Also I cannot tell you how IMPORTANT the other factors not discussed here: road condition/slopeage, traffic and weather. Sticking to RPM only and disregarding the other 3 factors is jus a waste of time. As I post in my review, know your roads to max your MPG.

 

Also, I think we're talking pennies here guys. As long as you keep to under or at around the EMPOWER 2 bar burn as I, Matt, Paul and the old hypermilers here, you're doing fine and better than 99% of the other non-forum Maxers who do not have a clue/know.

 

You're killing it!  :)

 

Agreed that we're chasing that last 5% of efficiency, which is ok as long as it's not affecting your life in a negative way- 

 

Also, I find it hard to believe someone hasn't figured out this already, but at the same time, to be the one doing this cutting-edge research is catnip for me, just wish I were independently wealthy so I could just drive around all day testing this stuff.


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#46 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:15 PM

Doing mostly two bar burns is working pretty well for me.
 
71.6
 
From today's drive.

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#47 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:54 PM

So I've been experimenting with incorporating a 2 bar burn into my daily driving.  I find it good for acceleration / pulse & glide but, I live in East Tennessee and we've got a lot of hills around here. (putting it mildly)

 

What I've found is while I get up a hill faster :shift: , my battery has no where close to the charge that it does with a 2000 RPM burn, and it definitely uses more fuel.  That being said, On "more" :airquote:  level ground my findings so far are that if I'm at a good speed, a 2000 RPM burn will generally keep my momentum, okay maybe 2100 RPM, while a 2 bar burn helps with accelerating.

 

All in all I agree with JUS, knowing your roads is a large factor in increasing fuel economy.  For the terrain I have around here I think that 2000 RPM with occasional 2 bar burn mixes up to the best fuel economy but, of course I've just reached 5600 miles on my Cmax so that may have something to do with it too and I'm still relatively new to driving it.  

 

This forum ROCKS :rockon: BTW.

 

(This is just my observation.  I have no app, or scan gauge for hard data)


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#48 ONLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 02:15 PM

So I've been experimenting with incorporating a 2 bar burn into my daily driving.  I find it good for acceleration / pulse & glide but, I live in East Tennessee and we've got a lot of hills around here. (putting it mildly)

 

What I've found is while I get up a hill faster :shift: , my battery has no where close to the charge that it does with a 2000 RPM burn, and it definitely uses more fuel.  That being said, On "more" :airquote:  level ground my findings so far are that if I'm at a good speed, a 2000 RPM burn will generally keep my momentum, okay maybe 2100 RPM, while a 2 bar burn helps with accelerating.

 

All in all I agree with JUS, knowing your roads is a large factor in increasing fuel economy.  For the terrain I have around here I think that 2000 RPM with occasional 2 bar burn mixes up to the best fuel economy but, of course I've just reached 5600 miles on my Cmax so that may have something to do with it too and I'm still relatively new to driving it.  

 

This forum ROCKS :rockon: BTW.

 

(This is just my observation.  I have no app, or scan gauge for hard data)

You need to get on Fuelly and post your average like we do on here. When you get some extra money get a ScanGauge, it will give you more info and improve your MPG's. :)

 

Paul



#49 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:11 PM

Scan Gauge ordered over the weekend, and Torque for my new smart phone... about $20 total.

 

Of course, this is from someone who hasn't remembered to involk Test Mode yet... not even once.

 

HAve fun,

Frank


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#50 ONLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:15 PM

Scan Gauge ordered over the weekend, and Torque for my new smart phone... about $20 total.

 

Of course, this is from someone who hasn't remembered to involk Test Mode yet... not even once.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

I used test mode once, missed empower and love ScanGauge. :)

 

Paul



#51 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:51 PM

But the last thing I need is another display to look at instead of traffic! That's why I'm not looking for a smart phone holder, as I've seen some folks do, and hoping I can log the data and review offline.

 

Then again, I drove my high-MPG rural route today with the middle grill blocked, but without cycling heat, and hit 30.0... I could barely get 1/3 of my mileage in EV, vs. 2/3 in warm weather. Highway nets me 33-38 at these temps.

 

Have fun,

Frank



#52 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:10 PM

 
Each segment starts with a full EV battery so I also calculate a "hybrid-mode"(HM) MPG by subtracting an estimate of 40 miles driven in pure EV mode.  Two bikes on the back also contribute to mileage in some fashion.

Wait a minute. You're getting 40 miles pure EV out of your Energi? I was gonna get one but my dealership isn't EV certified yet so we don't sell them but, they're rated at 21 miles EV and I thought best average was around 26 miles. How are you driving / what speed etc. to get this type of range? Just curious.

Thanks

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#53 OFFLINE   ArizonaEnergi

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:18 PM

Wait a minute. You're getting 40 miles pure EV out of your Energi? I was gonna get one but my dealership isn't EV certified yet so we don't sell them but, they're rated at 21 miles EV and I thought best average was around 26 miles. How are you driving / what speed etc. to get this type of range? Just curious.

 

I wish!  But no, that's 20 for each leg of the trip, with a full charge starting each leg.  My best EV miles in local driving before the ICE started is 25.2, 25.8 and 26.8 so far.  Many times it also looked like it would have been above 24 but I arrived at home before the ICE started.  Thread on this: http://fordcmaxenerg...ord/#entry16221


Edited by ArizonaEnergi, 21 January 2014 - 10:25 PM.

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#54 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:38 PM

I live in East Tennessee and we've got a lot of hills around here. (putting it mildly)

Much respect to those mountains.  In September, I was in the mountains of western North Carolina.  (Here is the trip report.)  At the time, my C-MAX only had about 4,000 miles on it, and I was getting around 48MPG while in the mountains, running the air conditioner.

 

You are absolutely right; there is no one way to drive for best FE in all conditions.  This kind of thing appeals to my nature.

 

I earn part of my livelihood as an instructor for a piece of underwater scuba equipment that is also highly technical.  I tell my students that this piece of equipment is "the thinking diver's" rig.  Sure, you can just go with autopilot and have a lot of fun.  However, if you fly it manually, and you put thought into operating it manually, you get the best efficiency.  It takes a little more work, but by practicing all the time, it becomes second nature, and isn't that big of a deal to do. 

 

The C-MAX is the same.  You learn to develop awareness of road conditions, which allows you to drive in the best way for safety and efficiency. 


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#55 OFFLINE   MacGyver

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:19 AM

lol, I dunno either...

Hey SDM, remember my ole "My 2c: EV" thread...we talked about 1 bar and 2 bar. I didn't check the tachy either but lately I've been flipping between the EMPOWER and the MyView where I set the tachy. I noted that it all depends on the road and speed, a 2 bar could be 2K rpm or 3K rpm. My rule of thumb now - as I sit mostly with the EMPOWER, is about 1 3/4 bar burn after my 15mph EV start...that gives me 2K rpm. Its all relative. Somehow for me...at the end of the day....I still prefer the 2 bar (or 2.1 bar) straight burn as the sweet spot for the decent acceleration & charging...but lack the scangauge to prove this.

 

I don't know how much the scangauge costs, $100-$200, but for $14 ($9=OBDii $5=Torque) you can have a far more advanced interface, "Torque" for both iphone and android I believe, measures and displays about a zillion (well, maybe 100 or so) data points. Highly recommended. 

 

Speaking of which, I've found that Torque is about 10% ... optimistic. That is, when the C-max displays 40mpg on the instant mpg bar, Torque will display about 44mpg. 

 

Now, the good news is; even if it is not accurate to the tenths, it is still useful in that it indicates peak efficiency, if not entirely accurately, and this also explains the disparity when others have tried to replicate my 75mph peak efficiency claim, and have not seen the same 45mpg-60mpg.

 

I've been keeping an eye on the instant mpg readout, and while EV up to 15mph then a measured acceleration- sub-2000 rpms being the benchmark discussed in this thread as the easiest benchmark of peak efficiency, but the instant mpg seems to indicate that your previous finding of 2-2.1 bars is MORE efficient, (which makes a lot of sense really, the engineers would most likely have put the bars at the best efficiency points) as the instant mpg CLIMBS with speed when accelerating slightly more aggressively than the 2000rpm, which results in a really sloooow build to speed and then cruise (which FEELS ECO, but the instant mpg indicates is not the most efficient), which makes sense when you realize the CVT is able to adjust to higher gearing, which means less load, which means better mpg. 

 

As has been noted many times over on the net, there is no "the" best way to drive to achieve best mpg, there are too many factors changing second by second to ever truly master all of them all at once, uphilll/downhill, traffic, temperature, weight of passengers/items/gas, wind, battery level, etc., so having that instant feedback is crucial, which is either really sloppy of Ford to have not given this tool to those in hybrids trying to maximize and game-ify their driving, or a masterstroke of publicity strategy, i.e., speedos are mis-calibrated to show 2-3mph MORE than actual, causing drivers to drive slower than speed limit, at less than peak efficiency, months pass while C-max STILL outsells Prius even WITHOUT equaling or surpassing its mpg, and becomes known as a better car in terms of style, comfort, ride, technology, etc., THEN, BLAMMO, SHOCKING NEWS, the C-max has been MORE efficient than Prius all along, but a simple error in the display made it seem as if it weren't!


Edited by MacGyver, 09 February 2014 - 03:03 AM.

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#56 OFFLINE   BretJ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:22 PM

Here is something I have been working on but have yet to find a consistant method with my CMax. When climbing a hill, one of the techniques recommended for my sons 2004 Honda Insight is to punch the throttle for as long as possible (speed, traffic etc.) in order to engage both EV and ICE. It works very well in his Insight but, as I said, I have yet to find a method to engage both manually with my CMax. Sometimes it works, other times no joy.

 

Thoughts?



#57 OFFLINE   Edsel

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:26 PM

C-Max does this automatically.  Do you have the charge/discharge arrows turned on?



#58 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

Depending on the steepness and distance, I typically make a 2 Bar burn for this type of thing.  If it is really steep but not too long, I can go as high as 3. 



#59 OFFLINE   BretJ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

C-Max does this automatically.  Do you have the charge/discharge arrows turned on?

Yep. I have noticed it happen on occasion and it appears to be dependent on battery charge. The Insight does it automatically under certain circumstances as well but you can work the system to kick it on manually.



#60 OFFLINE   BretJ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

Depending on the steepness and distance, I typically make a 2 Bar burn for this type of thing.  If it is really steep but not too long, I can go as high as 3. 

On a steep grade, the Insight will burn less fuel during the climb even though the RPMs are higher due to the EV assisting. The instant MPG rate will show poor milage, but the overall MPG will climb. While the milage appears poor for a short period of time, the shorter burn duration uses less because of the EV assist. Wanted to see if the CMax would respond the same way.


Edited by BretJ, 11 February 2014 - 04:29 PM.







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