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Best Engine RPM for minimal FE loss.

1 bar burn 2 bar burn RPM

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99 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   BretJ

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 04:27 PM

On a steep grade, the Insight will burn less fuel during the climb even though the RPMs were higher due to the EV assisting. The instant MPG rate will show poor milage, but the overall MPG will climb. While the milage appears poor for a short period of time, there is a "happy spot" where the shorter burn duration uses less because of the EV assist. Wanted to see if the CMax would respond the same way.

 

I might add that the Insight hypermilers recommend full acceleration from a start in order to get the EV to kick in. Again, as traffic and speed limits allow.


Edited by BretJ, 11 February 2014 - 04:30 PM.








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#62 OFFLINE   Jus-A-CMax

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 06:48 PM

That may be the case with the Insight but the CMax EV motor & battery pack is far more powerful than the Insight, I would suspect. For us Maxers, EV start is recommended as the CMax is a very heavy car and why burn gas to put momentum into it from stationary. Also, from 0 to 10 mph, the EV has more than enough power to keep up with the regular traffic and then kick in the ICE to power on....


Edited by Jus-A-CMax, 11 February 2014 - 06:49 PM.

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#63 OFFLINE   Tdefny

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:58 AM

On a steep grade, the Insight will burn less fuel during the climb even though the RPMs are higher due to the EV assisting. The instant MPG rate will show poor milage, but the overall MPG will climb. While the milage appears poor for a short period of time, the shorter burn duration uses less because of the EV assist. Wanted to see if the CMax would respond the same way.


Interesting behavior. I only drove a Honda hybrid once and didn't have much chance to play with it. It was an early Accord hybrid and it was more about power than economy.

My impression of Honda hybrids is that their systems achieved through finessing and fine tuning what Toyota did through high technology. Except that Toyota has a high degree of finesse as well and Honda couldn't achieve the same high mileage AND low emissions. Even the C-Max is behind Toyota in that repect but it is because Ford also prioritized the driving properties and "feel" of the car.
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#64 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:01 AM

Any of you guys that have myFord Touch, have you ever noticed on the Hybrid Information Screen, the following behavior? As you know it will show what the drive system of the car is doing and why. The other day I noticed, while in the midst of a 2 Bar Burn, that when the load indicator on the Empower screen reaches 2 bars, the status of the Hybrid Info Screen goes from "Charging HV Battery" to "Hybrid Drive"

Now I know this doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary except, over on the left screen the battery meter continues to show a chevron above it, indicating that the vehicle is in a state of charge, furthermore if I switch to the Engage screen, it shows no assist by the battery. I have observed this on every occasion since first discovering it, so it doesn't seem to been an oddball occurrence.

Could this just be a fluke in programming, or is the car actually giving assist and not reporting it in the standard information screens, and could this be why JUS and others feel that it will get better FE at 2.1 bars? Because the battery is actually taking some of the load off.

Just my observation. Anyone feel free to chime in. :)

#65 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

I would think that is a programing problem do the fact it is one step farther away from the computer than Smart Gauge. IMO :)

 

Paul



#66 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:05 AM

Maybe it is a brief period of ICE high?



#67 OFFLINE   bemyax

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:49 AM

Any of you guys that have myFord Touch, have you ever noticed on the Hybrid Information Screen, the following behavior? As you know it will show what the drive system of the car is doing and why. The other day I noticed, while in the midst of a 2 Bar Burn, that when the load indicator on the Empower screen reaches 2 bars, the status of the Hybrid Info Screen goes from "Charging HV Battery" to "Hybrid Drive"

Now I know this doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary except, over on the left screen the battery meter continues to show a chevron above it, indicating that the vehicle is in a state of charge, furthermore if I switch to the Engage screen, it shows no assist by the battery. I have observed this on every occasion since first discovering it, so it doesn't seem to been an oddball occurrence.

Could this just be a fluke in programming, or is the car actually giving assist and not reporting it in the standard information screens, and could this be why JUS and others feel that it will get better FE at 2.1 bars? Because the battery is actually taking some of the load off.

Just my observation. Anyone feel free to chime in. :)

I was able to observe this phenomenon on my drive home yesterday. In the Engage display. Someone with additional instrumentation would need to report what high-voltage battery current flows are occurring. I have a sneaking suspicion we are seeing something like a toggle between plus zero and minus zero. This is contradicted by the fact that the up chevron remains. I will use the following term despite my limited ability to comprehend it: Negative power split mode. I suspect we are seeing constant charging with a toggle to hybrid drive while charging continues. The quantity of drive assist is so small that it doesn't register on the blue EV bar.


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#68 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:02 PM

I was able to observe this phenomenon on my drive home yesterday. In the Engage display. Someone with additional instrumentation would need to report what high-voltage battery current flows are occurring. I have a sneaking suspicion we are seeing something like a toggle between plus zero and minus zero. This is contradicted by the fact that the up chevron remains. I will use the following term despite my limited ability to comprehend it: Negative power split mode. I suspect we are seeing constant charging with a toggle to hybrid drive while charging continues. The quantity of drive assist is so small that it doesn't register on the blue EV bar.

Said much better than I ever could have. +1 Either a toggle or some kind of simultaneous split.



#69 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:13 AM

I took some video of this yesterday. Normally, I never have the main screen showing the vehicle. (I usually either just leave MFT on the Home screen, or I change it to show Map). So, I never saw the changes on the main screen until then.

 

The screen shows three states: Charging Battery, Hybrid Drive and Electric Drive.  During Hybrid Drive, on the Empower screen, you can see ICE/EV both on in the bar graph, and you can see the battery switching back and forth between ^ and - (I can't find an arrow down key on my keyboard). You can also see that the instant MPG graph is moving between about 45-57 MPG, depending upon the split between positive and negative arrows on the battery.

 

I am guessing that we can't load video to this site, and I have never loaded video onto the Internet. So, if somebody wants to tell me a non-laborious method to do so, I'll give it a try, if anybody is interested in seeing the clip. The quality is not the greatest, and unless I can find a way to rotate the frame (because I had to hold the phone sideways to take the video), you'll get a little bit of a stiff neck checking it out. Nonetheless, it shows the whole story.


Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 01 March 2014 - 11:47 AM.

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#70 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:07 PM

Try YouTube. I was skeptical, too, but the process was easy, and I was able to keep it private, so I was the only one with the URL. It's how I loaded the tuft test videos...

Frank



#71 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:15 AM

Okay, here is the link. Again, I apologize for the camera work.

 

You can see the ICE/EV split on the left screen and the Hybrid Drive status on the main screen. On the right screen, you will see the gauge showing that ICE is on but fuel economy is just under 60 MPG at 54 MPH.  On the battery status, you will see the battery nearly topped off, and you will see the arrow up and arrow down on it.

 

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to catch the moment when the arrow switches, but when the split is going for long stretches, it goes back and forth between up and down. That is the sweet spot to consistently get best highway FE.


Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 04 March 2014 - 12:20 AM.

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#72 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:19 AM

Okay, here is the link. Again, I apologize for the camera work.

 

You can see the ICE/EV split on the left screen and the Hybrid Drive status on the main screen. On the right screen, you will see the gauge showing that ICE is on but fuel economy is just under 60 MPG at 54 MPH.  On the battery status, you will see the battery nearly topped off, and you will see the arrow up and arrow down on it.

 

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to catch the moment when the arrow switches, but when the split is going for long stretches, it goes back and forth between up and down. That is the sweet spot to consistently get best highway FE.

I'm glad you didn't get hurt doing that video. How long did you go before ICE had to start charging again? 80 degrees is about the prefect temp and I don't think it gets much better at high temps. :)

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 04 March 2014 - 10:24 AM.


#73 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

I'm glad you didn't get hurt doing that video. How long did you go before ICE had to start charging again? 80 degrees is about the prefect temp and I don't think it gets much better at high temps. :)

 

Paul

The only real issue seems to be in finding a long stretch of flat road. While South Florida is flat, I-95 has many overpasses built in for local traffic crossings.


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#74 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

Guys I'm finding that two bar burn is a great way to keep up your efficiency when you need to accelerate but I still believe that a 2000 RPM burn is the best way to keep up your efficiency when you're going up a hill or even as you're just moving along.

Accelerating is really the only thing that I find a two bar burn good for. Then again around here we have a lot of hills, it's not like other places where it's mostly flat. I don't recommend it up an extremely steep hill because you will get very very very slow.

Loving the warm weather lately. However I wish mother nature would make up her mind. Will have a day or two in the 60s low 70s and then it'll drop down the 40 or 30. With the warmer weather I'm in getting 55 to 59 miles per gallon on my way home and we haven't even got into the mid 70s or even the 80s yet.

Was getting mid to high 40s at best 51-52 mpg and those were only when it was in the 40s going home.
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#75 OFFLINE   viennacoup

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:40 AM

Okay, so I used to drive a Civic Hybrid, and adjusting to this car has been a little bit of a challenge, (Operates completely different) however I love my Cmax! I've seen a lot of discussion about a 1 bar burn vs a 2 bar burn, and while charging and power is better on a 2 bar burn, I don't think it is the most efficient method.

Something I learned with my Civic is that keeping the ICE at or below 2,000 RPM kept my efficiency up. Although the Cmax doesn't have a prominent tachometer, it can be selected in "My View". I'm finding that I have minimal FE loss when I do not allow it to go over 2000 RPM. Not great up hills, I sometimes get down to 25 mph and would never attempt it on a 2 lane highway or interstate, but gain great speed on the way down. On flat groud I find that the longer you burn at 2000 RPM the more speed you gain and often time will get up to 65-70 and a 90% battery and 55-65 instantaneous FE before dropping back in to EV mode.

So this is basically how I roll. I use Empower and run EV until my threshold falls below one bar and then switch to my view and maintain a 2000 RPM burn until my battery is up and it switches to EV assist or I come to a "decent" downward run. As the battery charges the engine RPMs will slowly drop below 2000.

After filling up the other day I ended my trip at 59.8 mpg for 27 miles, my tank is now at 49.3. It would be much higher if it wasn't for the short runs to the store over the weekend, short trips kill FE.

Anyway, I would like to get other drivers input on this or if anyone else has tried it, what they think.

I live in a rural county and most of my driving is done on 50 mph or less highways.  The method described by John Sparks works well for me.

 

 I often drive 20.1 miles from my house to Costco/Trader Joe's.  Last summer, a good result there and back would have been in the low 50s mpg.  Last Wednesday, using this method I got 58.8 mpg from my house to Trader Joe's and an amazing 61.8 mpg coming home.  This route is up and down hills, and I sometimes used 2 bars on the Empower screen to maintain the speed limit.  The big difference for me is that I am much more likely to intentionally stay in ICE if running at 2000 rpm or lower.  Before reading Mr. Sparks post, I would try to be in EV mode as much as possible.  Now I am driving more aggressively (faster) and getting better mpg.


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#76 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:25 PM

I live in a rural county and most of my driving is done on 50 mph or less highways.  The method described by John Sparks works well for me.

 

 I often drive 20.1 miles from my house to Costco/Trader Joe's.  Last summer, a good result there and back would have been in the low 50s mpg.  Last Wednesday, using this method I got 58.8 mpg from my house to Trader Joe's and an amazing 61.8 mpg coming home.  This route is up and down hills, and I sometimes used 2 bars on the Empower screen to maintain the speed limit.  The big difference for me is that I am much more likely to intentionally stay in ICE if running at 2000 rpm or lower.  Before reading Mr. Sparks post, I would try to be in EV mode as much as possible.  Now I am driving more aggressively (faster) and getting better mpg.

viennacoup, you are getting close to P&Ging(Pulse and Glide) where you speed up(TWO BARS, don't worry about RPM's) to 60mph (55mph speed limit road) then Glide(coast) down to 50mph and bring in the EV power to stabilize at 50mph. When you run out of HVB accelerate(TWO BARS) back to 60mph. You need to watch traffic so you don't become an annoyance. This is the method I used to get 65mpg on to tanks. :)  :shift: 

 

Paul



#77 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:40 PM

I have also been playing around with this. What I am finding that seems to be a good balance is: EV to 13 to 18 MPH (EV has good low end torque, so you get moving nicely), ICE at 1.75 to 2 bars, briefly, to gather some speed and momentum, and then reducing to 2,000 RPM while continuing to accelerate to speed, which corresponds to 1 to 1.125 bars. This allows decent pick up to keep along with traffic, but keeps fuel economy at a good number. ICE runs a bit longer than going with a 2 bar burn, but due to lower RPM, it seems to use the same or maybe even a little less fuel.

 

Last year, on a typical route of 12 miles that I routinely run, I was usually averaging about 50 MPG. Since starting with this new procedure, I haven't made this trip enough to verify with certainty, but is seems that I am now getting 52 MPG on the same trip. When I say last year, and to explain why it has been a while for running this route, up until about three weeks ago, I was running with no air conditioning during the winter. So, I didn't count trips made without the air conditioner in the 52 MPG; those would be more like 60+ MPG.


Edited by ScubaDadMiami, 06 May 2014 - 01:42 PM.

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#78 OFFLINE   John Sparks

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:48 PM

I live in a rural county and most of my driving is done on 50 mph or less highways.  The method described by John Sparks works well for me.
 
 I often drive 20.1 miles from my house to Costco/Trader Joe's.  Last summer, a good result there and back would have been in the low 50s mpg.  Last Wednesday, using this method I got 58.8 mpg from my house to Trader Joe's and an amazing 61.8 mpg coming home.  This route is up and down hills, and I sometimes used 2 bars on the Empower screen to maintain the speed limit.  The big difference for me is that I am much more likely to intentionally stay in ICE if running at 2000 rpm or lower.  Before reading Mr. Sparks post, I would try to be in EV mode as much as possible.  Now I am driving more aggressively (faster) and getting better mpg.

 


This is basically the exact same terrain I deal with. 55 mph or less highways, lots of hills. Everyone always says that a 2 bar burn gives better charging. I have to disagree. I find that going up a hill, big or small, at 2000 RPMs not only uses less fuel (though you will really slow down on big hills), I also find that I have accumulated more charge on the battery. Now this may simply be due to the fact that the engine is running longer, or could be the lower speed puts more load on the engine. Either way it's nice to reach the top of a hill with a higher charge.


 

I have also been playing around with this. What I am finding that seems to be a good balance is: EV to 13 to 18 MPH (EV has good low end torque, so you get moving nicely), ICE at 1.75 to 2 bars, briefly, to gather some speed and momentum, and then reducing to 2,000 RPM while continuing to accelerate to speed, which corresponds to 1 to 1.125 bars. This allows decent pick up to keep along with traffic, but keeps fuel economy at a good number. ICE runs a bit longer than going with a 2 bar burn, but due to lower RPM, it seems to use the same or maybe even a little less fuel.
 
Last year, on a typical route of 12 miles that I routinely run, I was usually averaging about 50 MPG. Since starting with this new procedure, I haven't made this trip enough to verify with certainty, but is seems that I am now getting 52 MPG on the same trip. When I say last year, and to explain why it has been a while for running this route, up until about three weeks ago, I was running with no air conditioning during the winter. So, I didn't count trips made without the air conditioner in the 52 MPG; those would be more like 60+ MPG.


SDM...I just started to have to use the A/C around here and it amazes me just how much of a difference it makes. Fortunately most days I leave early and get home late, after the temperature has dropped however, I suppose that wouldn't make much difference there in Miami

#79 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:25 PM

2000 RPMs not only uses less fuel (though you will really slow down on big hills), I also find that I have accumulated more charge on the battery. Now this may simply be due to the fact that the engine is running longer, or could be the lower speed puts more load on the engine. Either way it's nice to reach the top of a hill with a higher charge.

I agree. 2000 RPM for longer uses less fuel while allowing for more charge, overall. I use this for battery charging when State of Charge is low, such as after a long glide.

 

I've noticed that when stopped, ICE, when running, is at 1200 RPM (it could be 1500; just going by memory). So, that's all that is required to charge. Before, I just wasn't sure if higher RPM = faster charge. Even if it does, the amount of fuel used goes up, and starts to go up much faster after 2000 RPM. That's why I give a short burst to 2 bar, and then I back off to 2000 RPM once I am speeding up sufficiently. It seems to be a good balance between moving along and good numbers.

 

Yes, there is a bit of a difference between AC and no AC, as you see!


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#80 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:34 PM

 


This is basically the exact same terrain I deal with. 55 mph or less highways, lots of hills. Everyone always says that a 2 bar burn gives better charging. I have to disagree. I find that going up a hill, big or small, at 2000 RPMs not only uses less fuel (though you will really slow down on big hills), I also find that I have accumulated more charge on the battery. Now this may simply be due to the fact that the engine is running longer, or could be the lower speed puts more load on the engine. Either way it's nice to reach the top of a hill with a higher charge.


 
SDM...I just started to have to use the A/C around here and it amazes me just how much of a difference it makes. Fortunately most days I leave early and get home late, after the temperature has dropped however, I suppose that wouldn't make much difference there in Miami

 

I think what is going on here is you are trading speed for gas mileage. The slower your average speed, the better your gas mileage. If you wait longer with the two bar method before you start the Ice  so you end up with the same average speed as 2000rpm method I woulld guess you would have atlest as good of gas mileage. Two bar method is a lot easier to do too. IMO :) 

 

Paul 

 








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