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Snow tires and wheels


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54 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   shaners

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:06 PM

My snow tires tend to be on from early October to mid April although snow in September is not unheard of or a late April or early May surprise.  I drove studded tires for a long  time, but after driving studless Blizzak's, I will not go back.  Michelin Ice X's are also a good choice.  I went with the Blizzaks because Costco had them in stock and on sale here, so no shipping.  You just do not to run them when it is too warm or they will wear fast.  The Focus options for 16 inch wheels work great and there were zero problems installing.

 

I will get myself in a photo at some point and a review as I get more experience with the car.

 

 

I agree!  I went off the Focus sizings when I bought my Michelin X-ice in 16 inch size for the C-max.  I hope to get the stock wheels and tires (with the TPMS sensors) installed back on our car in late March or early April.  I don't know for sure, but I actually think that a 15" wheel will fit...









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#22 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:44 PM

Does anyone have any idea on the correct size wheels and tires for snow tires/wheels? TireRack and Discount Tire Direct do not have the C-Max in their system so they cannot advise as to what will fit. I am thinking 16" x 7" wheels with 215/60 R16 tires but I need to find out if they will fit without rubbing.

 

Well it's getting to be that time of year again. The C-Max is in everyone's systems now, and I believe 215/60-16 is still the best recommendation for snow tires on dedicated wheels. Here's why.

 

There are two main snow performance advantages to a -1 wheel with a narrower, taller tire for equal rolling diameter

- narrower section width (215 vs 225)mm) means you push less snow aside in the deep stuff

- the narrower section also means a longer contact patch, which biases tire grip to straight-line acceleration - starting and stopping

and one non-performance "advantage"...

- 215/60-16s are a lot cheaper than 17" options on steel wheels.

 

Based on Tire Rack's tests and reviews, the Michelin Xi3 looks like the best combination of low rolling resistance and good snow/ice performance. (I've also had X-ice "1's" before.) There will be a small rolling resistance hit with 16's due to a longer contact patch, but I expect it's small compared with moving to a snow tire in the first place, the Xi3's LRR status not withstanding. 4 215/60-16 tires, 16" steel wheels, tpms sensors mounted and delivered are ~$1K, but with $170 in mastercard rebates at Tire Rack. Mine are ordered, even if they wait a month or two to get dirty.  

 

Have fun,

Frank


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#23 OFFLINE   joe

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 03:19 PM

Doesn't the use of a smaller (or different) diameter tire change the speedometer reading, either faster or slower?  And therefore, mileage and mpg readings will also be altered?



#24 OFFLINE   StoBro2

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

It's the outer diameter of the tire, and not the size of the wheel, that affects speedo and odo readings. You have to calculate using the section width and the aspect ratio of the tire in addition to the diameter of the wheel. The C-Max's standard 225/50-17 tire diameter is virtually the same as a 205/60-16 or a 225/55-16 (-1 sizing) tire. It's also virtually the same as a 225/45-18 tire going the other way (+1 sizing).

 

I bought Michelin Xi3's for my C-Max last winter in the 205/60-16 size. They worked fine for me.


Edited by StoBro2, 15 September 2013 - 03:36 PM.

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#25 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:45 AM

 Surprised if this works... It didn't, but I have a backup! Backup's not good either... data without headers is worthless, so I include minimal data! Sorry...

 

P225/50R17  803  

 

Here is the Revs Per Mile specs for the stock tires *Michelin Energy Saver A/S". That's the tire spec you want to match when considering +/- size wheels or alternate sizes on the same wheel. It's based on loaded radius, a smaller number than you get using section width and aspect ratio and considers tire pressures as well.

 

Here's the data for the 16" Xi3.

215/60R16  796

 

803 vs. 796 is >1%... did I read that someone found the C-Max odo read 1% low? This should correct it.

 

205/60-16's are 810 vs. 803 rev/mile, so another good choice that will read 1% lower on the odo.

 

Note that the one really important tire spec is load rating, and it's a non-issue when talking snow tires for a C-Max. The Michelin Energy Saver A/S is rated fairly low for a tire it's size, and all the snows I've looked at have exceeded sotck load ratings.

 

Have fun,

Frank


Edited by fbov, 16 September 2013 - 11:04 AM.


#26 OFFLINE   Laurel

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

How anyone bought the recommended 17 winter tire size?  If so, what did you get and how much did they cost?  We didn't put winter tires on last year, but we want to go to snow country this year so want to buy some winter tires.



#27 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:51 PM

Looking at snows for a hybrid means you're interested in rolling resistance as well as winter performance. Recognizing that, Tire Rack included mpg in their most recent snow tire test. It lead me to buy Michelin X-Ice as the best combination of ice and dry road performance with the lowest RR.

 

Tire Rack has a very niced web site for price comparisons. I won't discuss prices here, except to say that X-Ice will cost you $34 extra per tire for stock 225/50's compared with 215/55's. Per my discussion above, I'd recommend the 215 on performance grounds as well. Rev per mile is 803 stock vs 791 for the 215/55's, about 1.5%.

 

Have fun,

Frank


Edited by fbov, 03 October 2013 - 04:52 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   Laurel

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

I'm not having fun so far Frank.  The dealership just phoned with a quote for tires and rims for $3800!  I nearly fainted with that quote.  He said he was shocked himself and they will be phoning around and get back to me next week.  I have a message left at Kal Tire and he is supposed to get back to me in a few minutes. I haven't heard of Tire Rack but I will google--likely not a Canadian thing.  I'm pretty sure my husband did not pay much more than $3800 for his big honking Lexus SUV snow tires with rims.  I am not driving a Rolls Royce here, but the price seems to reflect that I am LOL.

 

Update:  Kal Tire will put on 17" Nokian Nordman snowtires with aluminum rims for $1700.  So the deed is done.  They sound totally adequate for my needs and that price includes $200 worth of pressure sensing monitors.  I'm happy.


Edited by Laurel, 03 October 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#29 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:27 PM

I'm not having fun so far Frank.  The dealership just phoned with a quote for tires and rims for $3800!  I nearly fainted with that quote.  He said he was shocked himself and they will be phoning around and get back to me next week.  I have a message left at Kal Tire and he is supposed to get back to me in a few minutes. I haven't heard of Tire Rack but I will google--likely not a Canadian thing.  I'm pretty sure my husband did not pay much more than $3800 for his big honking Lexus SUV snow tires with rims.  I am not driving a Rolls Royce here, but the price seems to reflect that I am LOL.

Don't buy factory wheels and don't buy tires from the dealer You can buy aftermarket wheels and save $2000 if you feel

the need to go to a smaller wheel and tire package. Otherwise, buy the 17 inch tires.

 It crazy to buy new factory wheels from the dealer.


Edited by drdiesel1, 03 October 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#30 OFFLINE   Laurel

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:04 PM

I bought the Kal Tire package for $1700 including installation.  I phoned the dealership back and told them not to look for a better deal than the $3800 as I was buying from Kal Tire. I'm not sure what after market tires are, but I bought Nokian Nordman snow tires with aluminum rims painted silver and they have the pressure sensors too. I


Edited by Laurel, 03 October 2013 - 06:07 PM.


#31 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:01 AM

"Aftermarket" is anything other than OEM... Ford or aftermarket are all possible choices. Nothing to be concerned about assuming they pick a wheel that meets Ford specs

 

The one that gets missed a lot is centerbore - the size of the centering hole - as that should be a snug fit. You don't want the lug nuts to be responsible for centering the wheel on the axel, just to keep it tight. Some aftermarket wheels need spacers, which I avoid. There's a discussion here.

 

The Nordman looks very similar to Hakkapeliitta Q's we ran years ago; a very good snow tire. Are your studded? It will be interesting to compare the impact on the car's performance between the Nokian's and Michelins, and whatever other brands and sizes of snows folks try.

 

Have fun,

Frnak


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#32 OFFLINE   lpr

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

Hello,

 

I'm looking at the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 XL and I was wondering what would be the driving difference between the 215/55R16 and the 215/60R16?

 

Thanks


Edited by lpr, 04 October 2013 - 09:34 AM.


#33 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:15 AM

Revolutions per mile differences will affect speedo/odo calilbration and so fuel mileage readouts relative to a GPS-based mileage. Here are X-Ice specs (click specs tab).

 

A 215/55 has a shorter sidewall than a 215/60, so it has a smaller diameter and more rev/mile. The difference, 823 vs. 796, brackets the OEM tire's 803 rev/mi. +1% one way, -2.5% the other. On the road, you'd have the normal differences that result from lower aspect ratio, but they'd be very subtle as 55>60 is a very small change. You'd accelerate faster, but would be traveling slower than you think.

 

Unless you have reasons to want 16's (like cost), the 215/55-17's offer the advantages of a narrower contact patch in the stock wheel size with a 791 rev/mi., +1.5% 

 

Have fun,

Frank, who bought 215/60-16's on steel wheels

 

BTW, I only talk rev/mi. when discussing rolling performance because it assumes rated load @ rated pressure, which is a heck of a lot closer to reality than static diameter and circumference measurements.



#34 OFFLINE   Laurel

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:32 PM

"Aftermarket" is anything other than OEM... Ford or aftermarket are all possible choices. Nothing to be concerned about assuming they pick a wheel that meets Ford specs

 

The one that gets missed a lot is centerbore - the size of the centering hole - as that should be a snug fit. You don't want the lug nuts to be responsible for centering the wheel on the axel, just to keep it tight. Some aftermarket wheels need spacers, which I avoid. There's a discussion here.

 

The Nordman looks very similar to Hakkapeliitta Q's we ran years ago; a very good snow tire. Are your studded? It will be interesting to compare the impact on the car's performance between the Nokian's and Michelins, and whatever other brands and sizes of snows folks try.

 

Have fun,

Frnak

They don't have studs.  Thanks for all the information Frank.



#35 ONLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:42 PM

Revolutions per mile differences will affect speedo/odo calilbration and so fuel mileage readouts relative to a GPS-based mileage. Here are X-Ice specs (click specs tab).

 

A 215/55 has a shorter sidewall than a 215/60, so it has a smaller diameter and more rev/mile. The difference, 823 vs. 796, brackets the OEM tire's 803 rev/mi. +1% one way, -2.5% the other. On the road, you'd have the normal differences that result from lower aspect ratio, but they'd be very subtle as 55>60 is a very small change. You'd accelerate faster, but would be traveling slower than you think.

 

Unless you have reasons to want 16's (like cost), the 215/55-17's offer the advantages of a narrower contact patch in the stock wheel size with a 791 rev/mi., +1.5% 

 

Have fun,

Frank, who bought 215/60-16's on steel wheels

 

BTW, I only talk rev/mi. when discussing rolling performance because it assumes rated load @ rated pressure, which is a heck of a lot closer to reality than static diameter and circumference measurements.

When my tires were new  the odometer was off by -1.5% and now with 37K it is -1.4% . Smaller tires would fix that problem but make speedometer under more.  Paul



#36 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Paul,

That's a tiny change...  but it got me thinking about how much tire pressure and wear affect revolutions/mile, and so speedo/odo cal.

 

Wear

Per Tire Rack, Michelin makes the OEM tires with 9.5/32" of tread depth.

- I'll calculate using unloaded dimensions; there's a consistent 3% difference between loaded and unloaded radius

- Assuming a 3/32" threshold for "worn out," one expects a 6.5/32" change in radius over life, or a 13/32 change in diameter, 0.406"

 

The result is a 1.6% change in static diameter over life.

 

Pressure

Michelin rates the OEM tire at 1433 lb.@51psi. Tread width is fixed at 8.2". Contact patch length will vary with pressure.

- from Pascal's Law

Force = pressure x area, so contact patch area = force / pressure, or 1433 / 51=28.8 sq. in.

- assuming square corners (a bad assumption), contact patch length = area / tread width

- the hard part is calculating the radius change due to a "flat spot" the length of the contact patch

(Warning, trigonometry)

Loaded R = static R x (1 - cos(x)),

where x = asin(contact patch length / static diameter)

 

The result is a 0.3% change in rolling diameter going from 51psi to 38psi., up to 0.6% if you go down to 30psi.

 

Have fun,

Frank


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#37 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:11 PM

This is a bit of a cross post, but let me add here that my steel wheels have 16x6.5-50 is stamped in the metal; 16" wheel, 6.5" wide with a 50mm offset (love the mixed units, don't you?)

 

The centerbore is 2.5" = 63.5mm and Ford uses a 5 x 108mm bolt circle.



#38 OFFLINE   CarpeNivem

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

Nokian makes an excellent tire, so kudos on that selection, by the way.

 

But what I really wanted to discuss was the first post in this thread, which mentioned that the owner's manual does not recommend using chains. Do you think the manual says that only because they mean traditional chains, which would be too large for the limited available space in our wheel wells? I assume so. And based on that assumption, I bet something like these would be alright...

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HZA2LK

...any thoughts?



#39 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:23 PM

But what I really wanted to discuss was the first post in this thread, which mentioned that the owner's manual does not recommend using chains. Do you think the manual says that only because they mean traditional chains, which would be too large for the limited available space in our wheel wells? I assume so. 

 

From another thread, this document does mention what type of chains will fit: http://www.motorcraf...difer_Guide.pdf


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#40 OFFLINE   CarpeNivem

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:24 PM



From another thread, this document does mention what type of chains will fit: http://www.motorcraf...difer_Guide.pdf

 

Oh, excellent. Thank you. So then, the chains I linked to earlier will fit. Good to know!








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