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heat without triggering the engine


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   samw

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:16 PM

Is there some combination of settings that will extract whatever heat there is from the engine without triggering the engine to start.  Yes I realize by cooling the engine it uses fuel but that's got to be less fuel than outright running the engine when the vehicle's not moving and the battery is fully charged.

 

Does anyone have more experience on the impact of cabin heat on fuel economy?   I tried driving today without turning on the cabin heat (approx -15 C outside) and it appeared to only improve fuel economy from 7.2 L/100km to 7.0 L/100km.  (When it was warmer I was getting 5.9 L/100km)

 

Any other tips for conserving heat in the vehicle (short of grill blocks)?  Thanks!

 

Sam.









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#2 OFFLINE   LizM

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:23 PM

This may be crazy, but I sometimes turn off the heat when stopped at a light or traffic, it keeps the ICE from coming on and conserves fuel.  The heated seats have really helped, also.


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#3 OFFLINE   samw

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

Yup.  When stopped, I turn up the thermostat from "LO" to some temperature and the ICE comes on.  When I lower the thermostat back to "LO", the ICE turns off!   Am I extracting any heat when the thermostat is set to "LO"?  I assume not as that's just venting outside air.  (Which is what I need in the summer to avoid the A/C)

 

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Edited by samw, 23 January 2014 - 03:53 PM.


#4 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:57 PM

Is there some combination of settings that will extract whatever heat there is from the engine without triggering the engine to start.  Yes I realize by cooling the engine it uses fuel but that's got to be less fuel than outright running the engine when the vehicle's not moving and the battery is fully charged.

 

Does anyone have more experience on the impact of cabin heat on fuel economy?   I tried driving today without turning on the cabin heat (approx -15 C outside) and it appeared to only improve fuel economy from 7.2 L/100km to 7.0 L/100km.  (When it was warmer I was getting 5.9 L/100km)

 

Any other tips for conserving heat in the vehicle (short of grill blocks)?  Thanks!

 

Sam.

Grill Covers are an obvious solution and oil pan heater is another, I plug mine in at home and work. :) 

 

Paul



#5 OFFLINE   Laurel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:14 PM

Sam our mileage is similar when it is cold i.e  7.2 L.  We have had a mild winter and ours is still hanging in at 5.9 L.  I can get it a lot lower if I turn off the climate, but that seems a little silly to achieve better mileage.  When the car was new I tried a few things, but now we are just driving it normally and taking the mileage in our stride.



#6 OFFLINE   scottwood2

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 11:51 AM

I was wondering about this too.  This would be a great ECO Heat option.  Give me a setting that just blows heat into the car and not start the ICE to do so.  This way when the car needs ICE you would get more heat and less when the heater core cools down.  To me this would make a great "Auto" setting as well.  ICE on and when heater core temperature output is greater than cabin temperature and the heat setting is higher than cabin temp then turn up the fan.  ICE shuts down and as the core temp goes below setting then turn down the fan.  I would love to see this option.  I would guess that it might be too confusing for some but I would like to see this option.  They do it for cruise so why not for heat. 



#7 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 12:26 PM

I have the Energi, and I don't know if your displays are quite the same, but the heater runs by heating a liquid, and I can see the huge draw it uses. If the ICE is not running, the vehicle uses electricity to heat the fluid. It makes more sense in the conventional hybrid, because it will run the ICE more than then Energi; the engine heat will cause the fluid to get warm. But at a stop, the conventional hybrid becomes like my Energi, but with only the smaller battery, the engine would logically come on to provide heat (because the battery will deplete faster). I keep my vehicle on LO unless someone really needs the heat.

 

I've found that the heater draws the most current of all the HVAC, except perhaps setting MAX A/C (but that is only temporary).



#8 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 12:48 PM

Is there some combination of settings that will extract whatever heat there is from the engine without triggering the engine to start.  Yes I realize by cooling the engine it uses fuel but that's got to be less fuel than outright running the engine when the vehicle's not moving and the battery is fully charged.

 

Does anyone have more experience on the impact of cabin heat on fuel economy?   I tried driving today without turning on the cabin heat (approx -15 C outside) and it appeared to only improve fuel economy from 7.2 L/100km to 7.0 L/100km.  (When it was warmer I was getting 5.9 L/100km)

 

Any other tips for conserving heat in the vehicle (short of grill blocks)?  Thanks!

 

Sam.

Grill Covers should be the first thing you do IMO and they can be as simple as covering your grills with packing tape. You will be impressed by the improvement. :)

 

Paul



#9 OFFLINE   scottwood2

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:34 AM

It is just getting started to get cold here in Michigan.  Some nights in the 20's and 30's.  I have played somewhat with the heater settings to get the best FE some days and other days I don't touch them and just let the system do its thing.  I hear the ICE come on when not needed but I just let it do its thing.  Some days I think my FE will be bad because of the ICE running and other times I keep the heat off and think my FE will be good.   So far I have very inconsistent data.  Had many times that the FE was much better than expected and other times much lower than expected.  Thinking now that just because the ICE is running does not mean bad FE.  Sure it has an impact but I think it might be lower than I thought.

 

My only trick I like so far is keep to heater shut off until the engine warms up and I drain the HV battery for the first cycle.  Then when I need to charge the battery I turn on my heat at the same time.  Kind of getting two for one.  I have not did any other changes.  The grill covers sound good but I am concerned about warranty issues and can't help to wonder why Ford would not have found a way to block these off if it helped FE and had no other side effects? 



#10 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:15 AM

It is just getting started to get cold here in Michigan.  Some nights in the 20's and 30's.  I have played somewhat with the heater settings to get the best FE some days and other days I don't touch them and just let the system do its thing.  I hear the ICE come on when not needed but I just let it do its thing.  Some days I think my FE will be bad because of the ICE running and other times I keep the heat off and think my FE will be good.   So far I have very inconsistent data.  Had many times that the FE was much better than expected and other times much lower than expected.  Thinking now that just because the ICE is running does not mean bad FE.  Sure it has an impact but I think it might be lower than I thought.

 

My only trick I like so far is keep to heater shut off until the engine warms up and I drain the HV battery for the first cycle.  Then when I need to charge the battery I turn on my heat at the same time.  Kind of getting two for one.  I have not did any other changes.  The grill covers sound good but I am concerned about warranty issues and can't help to wonder why Ford would not have found a way to block these off if it helped FE and had no other side effects? 

It would appear that FORD built the cooling system for worst case scenario and they didn't have the money to do a perfect job. It would seem most people over think the overheating problem, because the ICE Smart Gauge will tell you if there is a problem. I have been driving for 2 years with the Grill Covers on all time with no problems.  Plus there is a temp gauge in MyView if that will make you feel better, as I have said before the only time you need to remove the lower cover is on long uphill climbs. The Middle stays on all the time.  For you I would close off all Grill openings to conserve heat. I don't know how far you are driving for each trip you make, but Grill Covers and Oil Pan Heater(if can plug it in) make a big difference during the Winter. I'm currently installing FORD ICE block Heater to improve MPG's more. IMO :) 

 

Paul 



#11 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:01 PM

It would appear that FORD built the cooling system for worst case scenario and they didn't have the money to do a perfect job. It would seem most people over think the overheating problem, because the ICE Smart Gauge will tell you if there is a problem. I have been driving for 2 years with the Grill Covers on all time with no problems.  Plus there is a temp gauge in MyView if that will make you feel better, as I have said before the only time you need to remove the lower cover is on long uphill climbs. The Middle stays on all the time.  For you I would close off all Grill openings to conserve heat. I don't know how far you are driving for each trip you make, but Grill Covers and Oil Pan Heater(if can plug it in) make a big difference during the Winter. I'm currently installing FORD ICE block Heater to improve MPG's more. IMO :)

 

Paul 

I don't think it had to do with money. In most North American uses, there is far more chance of problems due to overheating than by being too cold. The problem with an ICE is always that it generates heat; Ford designed the system to keep the engine components within their desired operating temperature. They did not design for extreme climates, and they were willing to accept slightly lower MPG in order to make absolutely sure the mechanical components are kept cool. They have to warrant the engine...

 

That is not to say that a warranty claim would be denied because of grill covers, unless there was clear evidence of heat damage. I wouldn't use them myself (not that I need it here in SoCal), but I don't think it would cause a problem - if monitored closely. And that is the issue. Ford isn't going to design a system that the owner has to watch like a hawk to keep the engine within optimum longevity ranges. I realize that folks on this forum are careful, but not everyone is, and the car has to be designed to be idiot proof, especially with the number of lawsuits these days.


Edited by stevedebi, 05 November 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#12 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:41 PM

I don't think Ford designs cooling systems any differently for hybrid vs. conventional drivetrains. The shutters would help any car, but I question the effectiveness of blocking the internal end of the airway, compared with the effectiveness of blocking the entrance (grill block). That said, styling requirements overrule performance requirements, so I doubt any effective changes would ever reach production.

 

I check coolant temp in MyView, and with full grill blocks, have yet to see it above the middle (presumed thermostat setting). but then I don't drive up mountains in the desert in summertime.

 

Have fun,

Frank


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#13 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 02:12 PM

fbov "I check coolant temp in MyView, and with full grill blocks, have yet to see it above the middle (presumed thermostat setting). but then I don't drive up mountains in the desert in summertime"

 

Thermostat is fully open at 202*F, but I have to go through my Grill Cover Posts to find the correlation SmartGauge Temp and actual temps. If I remember right SG temp doesn't come off middle area until  226*F and comes up with overheating message at 247*F. Coolant boils at 262*F at these pressures. Operating temps are 202-212*F and I think you are fine to 230*F at which point I would remove lower Grill Cover. IMO :) 

 

Paul 



#14 OFFLINE   BIG ROCCO

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 03:00 PM

I don't think Ford designs cooling systems any differently for hybrid vs. conventional drivetrains. The shutters would help any car, but I question the effectiveness of blocking the internal end of the airway, compared with the effectiveness of blocking the entrance (grill block). That said, styling requirements overrule performance requirements, so I doubt any effective changes would ever reach production.

 

I check coolant temp in MyView, and with full grill blocks, have yet to see it above the middle (presumed thermostat setting). but then I don't drive up mountains in the desert in summertime.

 

Have fun,

Frank

 

We drive up and down mountains in the desert in the Summertime and all year round, so we could never consider grill or wheel covers.  I do turn off the AC on long uphill climbs in the Summer (reduces heat load and indirectly gives me a little more power) - turn it back on going downhill or on level ground or modest rises.  We just try to drive what I would call conservatively, and so far, we are thrilled with the MPG.  Most of the miles have been highway, 65-70MPH, and Lifetime Average MPG continues to rise - at 20K miles it is now 45.4 MPG.  I have read of fuel mileage increasing as mileage accumulates, and while I don't know if it's us or the car that is "breaking in", I do think there is something to the idea that the MPG will go up a little after awhile.



#15 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 03:26 PM

We drive up and down mountains in the desert in the Summertime and all year round, so we could never consider grill or wheel covers.  I do turn off the AC on long uphill climbs in the Summer (reduces heat load and indirectly gives me a little more power) - turn it back on going downhill or on level ground or modest rises.  We just try to drive what I would call conservatively, and so far, we are thrilled with the MPG.  Most of the miles have been highway, 65-70MPH, and Lifetime Average MPG continues to rise - at 20K miles it is now 45.4 MPG.  I have read of fuel mileage increasing as mileage accumulates, and while I don't know if it's us or the car that is "breaking in", I do think there is something to the idea that the MPG will go up a little after awhile.

The C-Max has an electric A/C system, so I'm a bit surprised to see that you experience a boost in power without A/C. It doesn't have the same drag as a conventional belt-driven A/C system. I can see that the MPG might suffer slightly due to the electric draw, but why it would affect the engine temperature I don't get.



#16 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 03:32 PM

fbov "I check coolant temp in MyView, and with full grill blocks, have yet to see it above the middle (presumed thermostat setting). but then I don't drive up mountains in the desert in summertime"

 

Thermostat is fully open at 202*F, but I have to go through my Grill Cover Posts to find the correlation SmartGauge Temp and actual temps. If I remember right SG temp doesn't come off middle area until  226*F and comes up with overheating message at 247*F. Coolant boils at 262*F at these pressures. Operating temps are 202-212*F and I think you are fine to 230*F at which point I would remove lower Grill Cover. IMO :)

 

Paul 

Paul,

You made my point! Ford can't design a system that needs manual monitoring like that. Advanced users such as yourself can do this sort of thing, but most customers can't - or won't bother. So they design with over-engineering towards keeping the heat down in the engine.


Edited by stevedebi, 05 November 2014 - 03:33 PM.


#17 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 04:35 PM

Paul,

You made my point! Ford can't design a system that needs manual monitoring like that. Advanced users such as yourself can do this sort of thing, but most customers can't - or won't bother. So they design with over-engineering towards keeping the heat down in the engine.

So 99% of the time I don't even think about Grill Covers and the other 1% it comes up when I have long uphill grades. A lot of people would never even have to think about this, because where they drive. FORD could have made an aerodynamic Grill Shutter system that closed tightly that would have solved the ICE Temp problem. IMO I think it is crazy not to have Grill Covers for improved MPG's and quicker heat up times in the winter. :)

 

Paul



#18 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 05:01 PM

So 99% of the time I don't even think about Grill Covers and the other 1% it comes up when I have long uphill grades. A lot of people would never even have to think about this, because where they drive. FORD could have made an aerodynamic Grill Shutter system that closed tightly that would have solved the ICE Temp problem. IMO I think it is crazy not to have Grill Covers for improved MPG's and quicker heat up times in the winter. :)

 

Paul

Well, Ford has to design cars for all climates and folks. I'm glad you grill covers work well for you!



#19 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 05:17 PM

Well, Ford has to design cars for all climates and folks. I'm glad you grill covers work well for you!

There are at least a couple dozen CMAX's and dozen FFH that I know of that use Grill Covers and probably many more that don't Post on these Forums, not just me. FORD could have done much better job if they had the money to spend,  cars are always compromises, price vs features. :)

 

Paul 



#20 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 05:55 PM

There are at least a couple dozen CMAX's and dozen FFH that I know of that use Grill Covers and probably many more that don't Post on these Forums, not just me. FORD could have done much better job if they had the money to spend,  cars are always compromises, price vs features. :)

 

Paul 

I knew a number of folks who also used them for the Escape Hybrids. Because the Escape was so popular, there were companies who actually manufactured covers that snapped into place. Some of the models let very little air in.

 

I bought a set, but they were high flow design and didn't make the engine warmer; I got them to keep rocks from hitting the radiator (and it worked - the covers had lots of rock impacts).


Edited by stevedebi, 05 November 2014 - 05:55 PM.







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