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Strange, long wooooo sound at steady speeds, ICE on


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226 replies to this topic

#181 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 11:09 AM

I've heard this many times, the first time visiting my daughter in Vermont in 2013. The key attribute is the throttle sensitivity; it needs to be in the "Goldilocks" spot, but that's not enough. I also need to be going up the right hill, and that's what makes it so very rare for me.

 

I last heard it a month ago, visiting my daughter for Thanksgiving. In Vermont.

 

Very strange,

Frank









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#182 OFFLINE   wb8nbs

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 11:39 AM

 

Observations:

If Ford had made it possible to turn off the ANC, diagnostics (and maybe fix) would be easier.  Guessing: doing this might take 2-3 lines of code somewhere.

If Ford had made the ANC tunable, fix might be easier.   The ANC is tuned to specific frequencies; Ford did not make it possible to adjust those.

If Ford had allowed the many mics installed in the vehicle to be used in a service mode to record noises, diagnosis of this (and other noises) would be easier.

 

If you can, slip a suggestion to engineering.  Service trips cost both of us.

 

The problem with your suggestions is that Ford probably OEM'd the canceller from somewhere and has no control over and little knowlege of how it works. AFIK, Land Rover uses the same module. I would love an option to turn the damn thing off this time of year. My car only makes the noise at a specific engine RPM +/- a very small amount so the panel vibration theory is plausible. It is much more likely to do it if my wife is in the passenger seat but would not act up when I had a dealer tech in the car. Murphy's law.

 

My theory on temperature sensitivity is, when the engine kicks in, it goes to a specific RPM to charge and help out with acceleration. That specific RPM is somewhat temprature dependant. And because the gas pedal is not actually connected to the engine, it's very difficult to finesse the RPM into the narrow range that causes the resonance.



#183 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 12:51 PM

The problem with your suggestions is that Ford probably OEM'd the canceller from somewhere and has no control over and little knowlege of how it works. AFIK, Land Rover uses the same module. I would love an option to turn the damn thing off this time of year. My car only makes the noise at a specific engine RPM +/- a very small amount so the panel vibration theory is plausible. It is much more likely to do it if my wife is in the passenger seat but would not act up when I had a dealer tech in the car. Murphy's law.

 

My theory on temperature sensitivity is, when the engine kicks in, it goes to a specific RPM to charge and help out with acceleration. That specific RPM is somewhat temprature dependant. And because the gas pedal is not actually connected to the engine, it's very difficult to finesse the RPM into the narrow range that causes the resonance.

 

I've gotten quite good a finessing it.  If it's cold enough for it to happen on it's own, I can now recreate it on command knowing exactly what conditions to put it under. I thought this would help in diagnosing, but all it did was help get the dealership to recognize there was an issue.  They still have no idea how to fix it. Like you, it acts up much more often when my husband is in the drivers' seat (like every time he drives in cold weather), but has been doing it plenty for me too. I had that vibration theory too and the dealership tried really hard to figure out what was vibrating to cause an amplified resonance. They just can't find it. I've said this for a while, Ford should buy my car back and tear it down and try to figure out the problem so they can fix the rest of the cars with this issue (or admit they can't fix it and offer buy back to the rest of you).



#184 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 10:27 AM

Here's the juicy bit from a Ford 2012 press release (for the Fusion hybrid, but same applies to C-max):

 

"At the lower speeds that help efficiency, engines produce booming, low-frequency sounds that can be unpleasant to the driver and passengers. Without Active Noise Cancellation, engineers have to keep the engine out of this operating range, sacrificing efficiency.
 
Yet to achieve peak fuel economy, a creative solution must be applied harnessing advanced audio technology to eradicate this unwanted sound.
 
A predictive control system notes driver behavior and how the engine responds, anticipating noise before it is even generated.
 

Three highly sensitive microphones are mounted in the Fusion Hybrid’s interior headliner – two over the first seating row and one over the rear – to detect and measure engine noise. These microphones send a signal to the Active Noise Cancellation control module in real time."

 

“The Fusion Hybrid leverages this advanced technology [to help deliver maximum fuel economy for the customer,” said Henry Ford Technical Fellow for NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) Dr. Takeshi Abe. “Reduced powertrain noise in the passenger compartment becomes the icing on the cake.”
 
 
Comment: SO the ANC signal fed to the audio system has to be perfectly out of phase with the noise in order to cancel it.  If the ANC has a phase that is just a bit off, it will add to the noise rather than reduce it.  That appears to be what is happening.  Customer can end up with amplified "booming, low-frequency" sound rather than cancelled.
(Looks like (from LInkedIn)  Takeshi Abe is a vehicle noise consultant hired by Ford  for the  Fusion / C-max project, and who then retired right after.)
 
Possible fixes:
 
1. ANC on/off available to user. 
2. ANC parameter adjustments available to user or technicians. 
3. Option available to consumer to tell PCM to keep engine out of "boom" producing rpm range in cold weather (accepting mpg tradeoff).
4. Better power train isolation - since it is a cold weather problem, seems likely powertrain mounts are losing elasticity and transmitting more bad vibes.
    More expensive fix, but perhaps closer to the heart of the problem.  Maybe install more deluxe mounts in cars sold in cold weather areas.
5. Stiffen the panel that vibrates, maybe where the low center powertrain mount attaches.
6. Better balancing in engine to reduce the problem at its source.  (not a retrofit option)
 
 
 

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#185 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 05:00 PM

And here we go - round 1 with Ford.  The regional management team called my cell while I was at work Monday and the gal left me the phone number of the regional manager who is handling my case and said someone would call me again the next day. I tried to call him, he wasn't available and I left a message. The next day, I received no phone call of any kind on any of my numbers from Ford.  I did get a missed call from my dealership on the home phone. Called again today, regional manager not available, straight to voicemail, left another message. Frustrated with the lack of call-back or alternate people to talk to, I called the regular EV customer care line. 

 

The first rep I spoke with there said that someone from the regional customer care team had contacted my dealership with instructions and a TSB to follow as well as instructed them to contact the Hotline (same Hotline who has yet to have any real idea how to fix my car).  And that they had rescheduled the followup call to me for NEXT Tuesday (so they didn't plan on calling me back yesterday to let me know at least they didn't have info yet, but that they would call me back a week later - due to holidays). I was sure to mention that not calling back on a day you say you will, and then planning to do so a week later was not cool in my book.

 

Called the dealership. Service advisor who is most knowledgeable about my case, says yes Ford did contact them and gave them a TSB they had already performed on the car and told them to open a case with the Hotline. I called the general manager of the dealership and left him a message asking for a return call to chat about my situation.  Called the EV customer care line back and spoke with a different rep who said that the TSB the regional care team had recommended was TSB 14-0214. Which they did not show on the corporate end as having been performed on my car.  So I looked up the details of that TSB. The symptoms they described are NOTHING like the issue with my car. The car only has noise and vibration upon accelleration between 2000-2400 RPMs and only in cold weather.  The TSB indicates that the noise should happen while decelerating. http://fordcmaxhybri...rinding-noise/ 

 

So I asked to be connected to someone in that care team because I feel like we are not on the same page and they maybe haven't looked at the details of my case enough to be recommending another TSB. I did mention that the longer Ford instructs the dealership to perform TSBs that are not the solution, the less likely it is we'll be inclined to buy another Ford (we have been looking at different Fords to see what we might get instead - not sure about rolling the dice on another C-max at this point). And if they were aware that we have already exceeded the number of warranty days in the shop within the first 2 years of ownership with an issue that will significantly impact the resale value of my car which qualifies my car for Lemon in my state.  I was also told that if I was contacting the Regional manager and he wasn't available their phone system is supposed to ring the rest of his team so I can speak to someone which had not happened at all.  The rep connected me to the team and it rang everyone and they are all not available, but I was able to leave a voicemail in the team mailbox instead of just the regional manager's mailbox.



#186 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:10 AM

Jenie, thanks for the saga update.  I am worried that relevant people at Ford don't seem to understand the problem; it has been described here pretty well and there are recordings of the noise.  It may be helpful if everyone who has experienced it lets their dealer know and presents the same description: LOUD booming noise in cold weather under partial engine load, apparently coming from footwells.  (I also experienced very loud cabin noise on a washboard road mid-summer - might also be ANC system related.)

 

20° here this morning; I'll see if I get the first noise episode since Spring.  Car (original tires) has not been behaving well on my snowy driveway - turned sideways as I tried to back out yesterday.



#187 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 05:49 PM

Update: 20°F on drive up and down hills this morning; no noise.  Drive train was a little louder than in warmer weather, but car behaved very well. However it seemed to behave differently than before the 15E03 recall Powertrain Control Module re-programming a week ago: the car seemed to keep the ICE rpm up higher than before.  I have no firm evidence, just an impression.  In any case, it did not make the dreaded noise.

 

Minor rant:  before cars were riddled with computers / programmable modules, when there was a recall it was very clear what was happening.  "Your gas tank may explode in a rear end collision; we're adding a little bolt-on shield"  or "Your tires may fall apart at freeway speeds; we're replacing them".

 

But now we get the cars recalled to be re-programmed, and what we are told is essentially "We're changing the way your car runs; try to guess what the differences are."


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#188 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 04:50 AM

"We're changing the way your car runs; try to guess what the differences are."

 

Brilliant !



#189 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 12:22 PM

Round 2 - Ford fails. Got a call from the regional manager and he says that because the last regional manager and everyone else I spoke with over the past year didn't tell me I needed to file for a good faith buy back within 2 years of purchase or 36K miles (I am now 1 month and 2K miles over and that's because I had to wait for cold weather to surface again) I am hosed. I am now not allowed to even ask for that kind of thing and no one at Ford is apparently powerful enough to make any kind of exception. I am beyond words for how unhappy I am with Ford right now. No exception will be made due to lack of cold weather or all of the records that I spoke with a lot of people over the past year and NOT ONE told me I needed to open a claim prior to 2 years or 36K in order to not have to start official lemon proceedings using the state law. That's right, NOT ONE. It's like they knew that if they made me wait, they'd have me between a rock and a hard place.

 

I've been instructed that I need to contact some 3rd party BBB arbitration line that apparently works directly with Ford (I am also not allowed to work directly with Ford) to file for buy back under lemon law. Which means I'll likely be getting a lawyer shortly since everyone I have talked to so far that has dealt with the BBB arbitration has said they were unhappy with the results and got totally screwed out of a bunch of money. Oh and why didn't the lady from the regional manager's office who left me a message last Monday (and who said in her message someone would call me back the very next day, but then no one did and she rescheduled my call back for a week out and did not call to inform me) why did she not just leave a message saying that I needed to contact someone else? Or why did no one else I spoke with on Wednesday last week inform me I had to call this BBB thing?  Or why didn't anyone in the last year tell me anything related to this?  Or why did my dealership not even let me know there was information in the back of my owners' manual related to buy back? Oh yeah, cause then they'd have to buy my car back if there was a problem - which there is.

 

It's really too bad Ford just wants to play by their playbook instead of working out custom resolutions with customers cause I had my eye on a new Ford on the lot at the local dealership. But after the conversation I just had, I really don't want a Ford at all.

 

Word to the wise everyone.  If you think you have an issue you're gonna want buy back on, DO NOT WAIT one more second. YOU MUST ask for a buy back within the presumption period for your state (if you're not sure what that is for your state, give your state Attorney General's office a call and ask).  In Minnesota, it is 2 years from warranty start or the end of the factory bumper to bumper warranty, whichever comes first. Again, DO NOT WAIT. Ford will not tell you any of this until after you are screwed. Please learn from my mistake in not filing last winter, thinking that because Lemon Law says you don't have to file within the 2 years that I could ask for it now. This goes for all Ford vehicles, so please feel free to share this with everyone you know. ( probably goes for other brands, but I don't have any experience with that, so I don't know for sure). 



#190 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 02:02 PM

That is sad that no one either knew or was hiding the fact you needed to file before your Warranty was up. I'm disappointed in the way FORD has handled this problem, Good Will is a very important thing in the Car Business.  :rant2:  :rant:  :swear:  :sos:  :sad:

 

Paul



#191 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 02:15 PM

That is sad that no one either knew or was hiding the fact you needed to file before your Warranty was up. I'm disappointed in the way FORD has handled this problem, Good Will is a very important thing in the Car Business.  :rant2:  :rant:  :swear:  :sos:  :sad:

 

Paul

I'm with ya on the disappointed. I find it very hard to believe that because when I sent my letter and had the dealership re-verify my issue I was 2K miles and just a couple of weeks past the end of the so called "presumption period" (which by the way, I can find no reference to in my state's lemon law information or statutes - by what I can find, I'm still within my rights under that law to ask for a good faith buy back and not past any kind of window of exclusion) that they would just say "oops, sorry, you missed it by this tiny amount". At my job, and with many of the vendors I work with, the answer is usually "yes, we will extend our goodwill to you on this warranty period since you are a very small fraction of an amount past the end of the period".

 

I did just call and speak with a customer care rep at the EV customer care center and discussed my frustration at hitting an impenetrable brick wall at the regional manager level where I just get told no and when asking about someone higher up who might have the authority to make exceptions get told "I can put you in touch with a supervisor, but Ford is not going to buy your car back". The previous regional manager (who treated me like I was some kind of idiot) had full knowledge of said "presumption period" (this is apparently the job of the regional manager) and when I made it clear I was interested in buy back, he did not tell me to file, or how to file or that there was a cut off period after which I would not be able to ask for a good faith buy back. He just kept saying to me "Ford is not going to buy your car back". This was back in March of this year, when I was very clearly within this so called "presumption period".

 

The bureaucracy of car companies is amazing frustrating. It's no good for customer service. And even worse for customer service that every time a customer has a complaint, they are rerouted to the same person/department who already did not solve their complaint (like when I was trying to get ahold of anyone but the previous regional manager).



#192 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:16 PM

Have you talked to anyone at the State level concerning the lemon law? Maybe Lawyer time. :sad:

 

Paul



#193 OFFLINE   Redshift

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 05:35 PM

I have a good recording of the noise! This is coming off a traffic light on Jan 22. Outside temp was 31F, the heater is off. Two people in the car.  Recorded on a Nook tablet.

 

In the file, noise at 0:15, and again at 1:05 briefly. RPM to get the noise going (I finally found the tachometer) is about 2400.

 

The file name is C-MaxWooo.mp3

 

Spectral display shows a 15 db peak at 159 Hz. That would be twice the engine firing rate at 2385 RPM which is consistant with the tach reading.

 

Hope This Helps.

My 2015 SEL just started making this noise about 2 weeks ago. 13,200 miles. It's intermittent also. I cannot make it happen on purpose. Sounds like we may have some kind of issue.



#194 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 08:09 PM

Have you talked to anyone at the State level concerning the lemon law? Maybe Lawyer time. :sad:

 

Paul

I'm calling them tomorrow morning. A supervisor of the regional manager is scheduled to call me sometime tomorrow before the end of regular business hours as well.



#195 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 08:15 PM

My 2015 SEL just started making this noise about 2 weeks ago. 13,200 miles. It's intermittent also. I cannot make it happen on purpose. Sounds like we may have some kind of issue.

It may take some trial and error, but you should be able to find somewhere you can drive it to make it perform on command.  Took me a while to get the nuance of it, but there is a hill directly in front of my dealership that works well and another on the way to the dealership about a block or two from it. Once you find a place it always happens, drive that route over and over keeping an eye on the RPMs as much as you can without being a hazard. It shouldn't take long when the temps are right (below freezing is best) to make it perform on command.  The service advisor at my dealership can now making it perform on command even. He rode along with me several times once I could replicate it on command and payed close attention to all the things I was doing and was able to get it to perform on command everytime under the proper temps. But yes, you do have an issue and it will only get worse.  Mine started at 700 miles. It went through the first winter before I was able to command it on queue and the dealership couldn't get it to misbehave (they were driving on flat and not giving it enough RPMs). Then the next winter it acted up again. I had it in the shop so many times last winter I lost count of how many.  Then spring came and we ran out of time to troubleshoot. I had to wait until winter came (and it came WAY late this year) to have the problem verified again. It's back and this time it's back with a vengence. Frequency is significantly increased. Every time my husband drives it in cold weather, it is horrible. Figure out how to command it to perform on queue and take the service manager of your dealership for a ride and put on a show. If your dealership is anything like mine, the first words out of their mouth will be "what the heck is that?!?!?!"



#196 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 09:44 AM

Got the resonance noise last night.  Outside temp 17°,  ICE running on partial load (second bar on leftmost kw gauge) due to moderate acceleration or hill.  Noise sounded like it was coming from front footwells.  Noise was pronounced but unlike last winter did not sound amplified and head rattling.   It is possible the recall module reprogramming done at the dealer in early this month changed the way the ANC behaves (I also switched to 0W oil, but doubt that makes any difference to resonant noise).  I'll continue to pay attention to C-Minn's Seasonal Affect Disorder for clues as to cause.



#197 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 10:33 AM

Got the resonance noise last night.  Outside temp 17°,  ICE running on partial load (second bar on leftmost kw gauge) due to moderate acceleration or hill.  Noise sounded like it was coming from front footwells.  Noise was pronounced but unlike last winter did not sound amplified and head rattling.   It is possible the recall module reprogramming done at the dealer in early this month changed the way the ANC behaves (I also switched to 0W oil, but doubt that makes any difference to resonant noise).  I'll continue to pay attention to C-Minn's Seasonal Affect Disorder for clues as to cause.

If you can get it to act up for the dealer, I recommend you get it to them asap. Otherwise, you may find yourself outside the parameters to get them or Ford to do anything to help you. Having a good service record history of trying to solve this issue will certainly not hurt you.



#198 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 11:56 AM

Jenie,  Thanks for the suggestion.  "Customer Concern" is in docs from my first Dealer service visit, beginning of the month.  Meanwhile I'll experiment with trying to produce the noise at will so that I can better do that for dealer service.  Of course we are having historically mild winter; I don't want to wish that away.

 

Please clarify for me:  did your dealer replace the center engine mount on your car?  Or just the upper passenger side?  Thanks.  These mounts are liquid filled?



#199 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 12:11 PM

Jenie,  Thanks for the suggestion.  "Customer Concern" is in docs from my first Dealer service visit, beginning of the month.  Meanwhile I'll experiment with trying to produce the noise at will so that I can better do that for dealer service.  Of course we are having historically mild winter; I don't want to wish that away.

 

Please clarify for me:  did your dealer replace the center engine mount on your car?  Or just the upper passenger side?  Thanks.  These mounts are liquid filled?

I'm unsure which mount exactly.  They didn't write the exact location on the service record, but I could call and ask them.  They are very helpful and would totally tell me.  Yes, the mounts are liquid filled. As the service manager said "liquid filled mounts in a cold weather clime is not an ideal match".



#200 OFFLINE   Jenie Benson

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 07:58 PM

Round 3 - After being dissatisfied with the regional manager and his understanding of the law here in MN yesterday, I called the EV customer relationship center and asked to be put in touch with someone higher up in the management tree. The request was submitted and I was told someone would contact me before the end of business today. At 6pm I had not received a phone call, so I called the EV customer relationship center again and let them know I had not been contacted as promised, that I was unhappy with that fact (and also unhappy that this was the second time in 2 weeks this had happened) and that I expected to be contacted as promised. The helpful agent put in a new request and promised someone would contact me tomorrow by the end of the business day. We shall see......






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