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Oil Quality and Change Interval

oil TBN viscosity

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79 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 06:54 PM

Finally had my oil changed, AZ trip extended my duration, so I ended up with 25,400 mi. ODO and 11,400 mi. ICE.using Mobil 1 0-20W full synthetic Oil.  Still hadn't used a noticeable amount of oil.  Sending my oil sample off to Blackstone Labs. :)

 
Paul

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#42 OFFLINE   BIG ROCCO

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 02:36 PM

116K miles?  That's a lot, Paul, and I don't think you have reported a lot of issues with reliability.  I'm old enough to still think of anything over 100K as a lot and living on borrowed time...or at least for a car that is reliable, runs and looks good, and doesn't cost a lot to own and repair.   How did you accumulate so many miles so quickly?  Is that the most total miles we have heard of?  Where did you go in AZ?  We live in the Phoenix area. 



#43 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 05:58 PM

116K miles?  That's a lot, Paul, and I don't think you have reported a lot of issues with reliability.  I'm old enough to still think of anything over 100K as a lot and living on borrowed time...or at least for a car that is reliable, runs and looks good, and doesn't cost a lot to own and repair.   How did you accumulate so many miles so quickly?  Is that the most total miles we have heard of?  Where did you go in AZ?  We live in the Phoenix area. 

With my work I travel a lot sometimes and I do have a Daughter and Grandson in Surprise and in-laws in Williams. We lived in Flagstaff for 25yrs. so we are back 4-6 times a year at 3500 mi. each time. The ICE is great not using a noticeable amount of oil in 11,400 ICE miles.   I did have the Trans replaced at 98K mi.  Maybe we can get together next time I'm out there.  :) 

 

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#44 OFFLINE   BIG ROCCO

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 07:31 PM

With my work I travel a lot sometimes and I do have a Daughter and Grandson in Surprise and in-laws in Williams. We lived in Flagstaff for 25yrs. so we are back 4-6 times a year at 3500 mi. each time. The ICE is great not using a noticeable amount of oil in 11,400 ICE miles.   I did have the Trans replaced at 98K mi.  Maybe we can get together next time I'm out there.  :)

 

Paul 

Well, we are pretty darn far from Surprise - in Fountain Hills - maybe could meet somewhere in the middle.  We had a '13 SEL - totalled it after 30K miles - now have a '15 SEL exactly the same interior/exterior color and options - we tried to find something different that we liked better - could not do it!



#45 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 10:33 PM

I will PM you when in the area

Paul

#46 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:24 PM

Got report back from Blackstone Labs on my oil sample. I guess we could compare it to others. :)

CMAX Oil sample
If not big enough after clicking on report, click on options and then click on large.
 
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Edited by ptjones, 28 December 2015 - 07:29 PM.

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#47 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:46 PM

 

Got report back from Blackstone Labs on my oil sample. I guess we could compare it to others. :)

 
If not big enough after clicking on report, click on options and then click on large.
 
Paul

 

 

In case this helps other people:

 

My experience of getting the picture larger was different - using chrome browser on Linux

 

click on report

View all images

Click on the oil report (presently the first small picture)

Option – view all sizes

click Large


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#48 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 10:03 AM

Got report back from Blackstone Labs on my oil sample. I guess we could compare it to others. :)

Did you only report ICE miles to them as your interval, not odometer miles? You might want to clarify that with them. They reference comparing your results to other Fords with this ICE, if they think you did a lot less odometer miles than you actually did, you may lead them to false conclusions.



#49 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 03:14 PM

Did you only report ICE miles to them as your interval, not odometer miles? You might want to clarify that with them. They reference comparing your results to other Fords with this ICE, if they think you did a lot less odometer miles than you actually did, you may lead them to false conclusions.

I talked to Blackstone Labs and they said most people use Odometer readings. I got them thinking about adding ICE vs Odometer on Hybrids. For my case they said I was doing very well and 117K mi. to boot. :)

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 04 January 2016 - 03:14 PM.


#50 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 05 January 2016 - 01:32 PM

I threw Paul's data in with mine:

- 10K change intervals from 5.8K (I missed the first change),

- First two use Ford synthetic blend, the third with a generic full-synthetic 0W20. Mobil One 0W20 is in the sump. 

Right-most, orange data is Paul's, identified by date and mileage in the legend.

 

Responses are scaled, with the degree of scaling shown in the column ID (e.g. "Zn E-1" means that Zinc values shown are divided by 10).

Attached File  Oil Analysis Comparison 160105.jpg   119.34KB   0 downloads

 

There are some very striking differences. I didn't scale Magnesium; it really is "off the chart!" As to significance, I defer to Bob, the oil guy.

http://www.bobistheo...e-oil-analysis/

http://www.bobistheo...what-is-normal/

 

Many values are comparable, so I'll focus on what's different. That starts with the "3M's" of Molybdenum, Manganese and Magnesium.

- Mb is an oil additive, so a 2x difference isn't unreasonable.

Mobil may use to a larger degree than Ford or my generic. Next change will tell if it's in the Mobil One lubricant. 

- Mn is alloyed with other metals, so it's presence should correlate with alloy partners.

Metal wear levels are low, so there's no alloy correlate, and the level is 10x higher so it's unlikely an oil additive difference. My next change might be telling but this is odd. 

- Mg is both an additive and an alloy, and it's 100x greater in Paul's oil.

Again, one doesn't expect a 100x difference in an additive level, and there is no obvious alloy partner wearing... Make that very odd!

 

Si levels say you're not getting grit past the air filter; that's good news.Your viscosity is a bit higher, again consistent with severe service interval. I'm glad to see you also have reduced flash point, due to a little fuel in the oil. I'm going to try a little highway driving just before my next change, to see if I can drive the fuel out of the oil.

 

The one place where we see the severe service interval is Barium, as this detergent additive is not found in Paul's oil. How I wish you'd measured TBN!!! 

 

My next oil change won't be until Summer, which will address questions of base oil formulation, as we'll both have data from Mobil products. In the mean time, you may want to look in the 3M's, as I doubt those deviations will be explained by oil formulation. I'd start at the source; ask Blackstone if they saw other odd Mg levels when your sample was measured.

 

Have fun,

Frank


Edited by fbov, 05 January 2016 - 01:34 PM.

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#51 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 January 2016 - 04:34 PM

Well Blackstone sent me another bottle to put my next oil change sample in.  It might take me another year to get another 11K ICE miles(24k odometer miles)! :)

I would think if bad things are happening I would start to use some oil. :headscratch:  :)

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 10 January 2016 - 05:57 PM.


#52 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:09 AM

Is there any easy way to get a sample between oil changes? How much oil does Blackstone need?



#53 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 11:16 AM

Is there any easy way to get a sample between oil changes? How much oil does Blackstone need?

They would like to have 3oz, but could do it with more than 1oz.  You could get oil from the dipstick tube with small hose, but I think it would be easier to loosen drain plug to get what you need. definitely messier. LOL :) 

 

Paul 



#54 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 12:26 PM

I think it's worth a call to Blackstone about the 3M's, that's all. They may be able to tell you something. I agree that a real problem would make itself known... the tranny sure did.

 

I'm less than 4K miles from my next change, so I should have my next data point in April or so, that will answer a number of questions. We'll both have used a Mobil 1 variant. I may send in a T=0 sample from the bottle, just for grins. For sampling, it's hard to beat a hose in the fill tube... a clean hose, of course.

 

HAve fun

Frank



#55 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 01:02 PM

They would like to have 3oz, but could do it with more than 1oz.  You could get oil from the dipstick tube with small hose, but I think it would be easier to loosen drain plug to get what you need. definitely messier. LOL :)

 

Paul 

I was hoping it would be possible to get enough oil just off the dipstick. But I guess not. We go years between oil changes in our Energi. I should've asked the dealer to save some oil when they did the first oil change last summer. I don't expect to do another oil change in it until 2017.



#56 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 01:36 PM

I looked at a simple sampling approach; use a hose just long enough to capture 1oz. Feed the hose into the dipstick port, apply vacuum until full and you're done!

 

The problem is that you need 20+ feet of hose for the thinnest wall tubing that fits the dipstick port. C'est la vie!

 

Frank



#57 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 12:06 PM

I came across something on Ecomodder that's germane to this thread - an oil life analyzer.

 

$50 bucks

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/B00HBAG9AC

 

Cummins forum discussion. Temperature sensitivity is due to viscosity; see SAE paper.

http://www.cumminsfo...bricheck-2.html

 

And an SAE paper on what it's doing. The free preview gets you the gist of GM's approach. Mostly conductivity...

http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-1366/

 

For those seeking an oil change interval that's based on actual oil data, this seems ideal!

 

HAve fun,

Frank



#58 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 01:59 PM

At 11K ICE mi. BlackStone said my oil was fine so maybe I could have gone to 15K ICE miles. :)

 

Paul



#59 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:12 AM

Oil Change 120116

I went close to 30k Odometer miles, 14K ICE miles on this oil change. :) Of three Lab Reports this was the best one. :) They said my Mobil 1 0W20 was still good. :yahoo:

 

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#60 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:56 PM

 

 

I went close to 30k Odometer miles, 14K ICE miles on this oil change. :) Of three Lab Reports this was the best one. :) They said my Mobil 1 0W20 was still good. :yahoo:

 

Paul

 

Paul, you did get great results.  Thanks for your enthusiasm and sharing.     ....   Your Fe (iron) levels were low for that many miles and the Universal Average Blackstone collects.  Iron accumulates in there, so its on a per-mile basis.

 

Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has proven itself to be a good choice for oil, and its available in Walmart for cheap in 5-quart jugs.

 

First, I look at the Fe iron results.  Yours was great.  (Blackstone's Universal Average was a value from far lesser miles, so you beat it per mile.)

 

Second, make sure the viscosity didn't get too low, and yours is perfect (an 8 is right for a 0w20 weight).  I might add, too high of a viscosity is an indication the oil has been oxidizing (burning) too much, and yours was fine there.

 

Third, the next most important number is TBN, a measure of the chemical acid-fighting ability in the oil.  You didn't pay extra for that so its missing.  Would have really liked to see that TBN number after so many miles you put on it.  TBN should be above 2 to be really safe.

 

Fourth, fuel dilution was low, indicating your rings are doing their job properly & also your fuel injectors aren't leaking, all good in your case.

 

Fifth, insolubles was OK, but you might be able to get that lower (and lower Fe iron wear) if you use a Fram Ultra dual-layer synthetic oil filter media oil filter.  Or a MicroGreen oil filter would do it too.  (Also Royal Purple oil filters and Amsoil oil filters good for this. )

 

Sixth, the copper, lead, and aluminum values were low for you.  That is bearing babbit wear, and your bearings appear to be just fine.

 

Seventh, potassium levels for you were low.  Too much potassium is an indication engine coolant is leaking into your oil, but you're fine.

 

Eighth, I look at silicon.  Yours was average.  Too much silicon means your air filter might not be keeping sand silica particles out.

 

All the other elements you see there can be ignored, as they come from Mobil1 0w20 additives, not your engine.  Technically interesting, but not about your engine.

 

I'll try to send in my results (Pennzoil Platinum 0w20).

 

Maybe it would be better to stick with Ford's IOLM (oil change light) algorithms.  Keep in mind you could be gumming up the rings gradually with aged oil.  You went a bunch of miles.  Cool that it has worked well so far.  Good test.


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