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Tire Noise


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#61 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 06:54 PM

They are at 45 psi now which is about what I usually use - has been higher at times.  My tire dealer says the undriven tires are prone to cupping (in the "bad ol' days" it was the fronts!).  I'm convinced that frequent rotations are essential to hold down the noise and wonder if Ford's 10k recommendation is often enough.  Proper alignment can sure prevent other wear problems but may not prevent cupping.

I agree.

 

My rear camber is LR = -1.4* and RR = -2.0*.  Spec. is between -0.9* and -2.4*. IMO, the high negative camber caused my cupping and noise.  I suppose Ford is balancing cornering performance with tire wear and has chosen a high rear negative camber spec.  I do believe that reducing the negative camber to -0.9* (minimum spec) with the equipment you linked to would have reduced my cupping and extended my "tire life" (noise related) perhaps by 20%. The camber specs for the front are about 1* less negative than the rear.  

 

I believe that tire rotation (without reversing the tire on the rim) will likely not prevent cupping.  It's just not economical for me to pay to have the tires reversed at say $15 / $20 a tire every 10 k miles or less.  I also don't feel like rotating tire every few thousand miles myself  to see if more frequent rotation would help.  I replaced my OE tires at 48 k miles at Costco and took the car in at about 7.8 k miles on the new tires for rotation.  I went back to Costco after another 5.5 k miles and the tire tech said there wasn't enough miles on to rotate again. The tech said 10 k is Ford's schedule (as we know). I've got around 18 k miles with no cupping / noise issues yet on the new tires.

 

Also, just to be clear my tire cupping was actually very minor at 48 k miles but the noise was unbearable especially at very high speeds.  If I were just going to drive around town and at moderate speeds, I likely would have lived with the noise.


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 03 April 2016 - 07:05 AM.

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#62 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 07:18 AM

I got 64k mi on first set, 65k on second set(not worn out, 3-4/32nd, but could take the noise) cupping was hardly noticeable. All in all I can live with these numbers. :)

"SnowStorm"  it will be interesting to see if you get better results.  

 

Paul 



#63 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 09:00 AM

It would be interesting to list ones actual rear camber as measured during an alignment (to see the variance among C-Maxes), miles on tires, any tire noise (especially at high speeds where it is very apparent), and any cupping on the inside edges. 



#64 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 09:42 AM

It would be interesting to list ones actual rear camber as measured during an alignment (to see the variance among C-Maxes), miles on tires, any tire noise (especially at high speeds where it is very apparent), and any cupping on the inside edges. 

That's interesting, I think my tire noise is the loudest 35-50 mph, which also varies with type of pavement. ;)  I will try to find my alignment specs. 

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 03 April 2016 - 09:43 AM.


#65 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 12:16 PM

That's interesting, I think my tire noise is the loudest 35-50 mph, which also varies with type of pavement. ;)  I will try to find my alignment specs. 

 

Paul

Might be somewhat related to the frequencies we hear best also.  Pavement does make a big difference.  

 

I linked to a study in another post / thread on "road" noise (noise level outside of vehicle).  Engine noise dominates "noise" at low speed and pavement / tire noise dominates at high speeds.  I don't recall that aerodynamic noise ever dominates (maybe at a 100+ mph or so).  :)  The C-Max has the engine noise cancellation system and pretty good insulation so I don't hear a lot of engine noise. 


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#66 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 12:59 PM

Here are the numbers from my alignment with new tires. :)

Front camber -0.4*, -0.7*

          toe  .09*, 0.12*

Rear camber -2.0*, -1.6*

           toe  0.23*, 0.17*

  Total Toe 0.40*, Thrust Angle 0.03*

alignment
 
Paul

Edited by ptjones, 05 April 2016 - 01:07 PM.

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#67 OFFLINE   RobMax

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 11:47 AM

After having criss-crossed my very noisy tires I also recently increased the tire pressure to 45 PSI, which also helped decrease the tire/road noise I was experiencing. Depending on some other variables, and in an effort to increase MPG even more, I may increase tire pressure to 50 PSI and report back here with results. Hopefully I can abate the issue by continuing to rotate and overfill the tires. If not, I'll live with it till they're so worn I have to replace them. I'm cheap like that...


Edited by RobMax, 07 May 2016 - 04:32 PM.


#68 OFFLINE   Roger Eastman

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 04:01 PM

I, too, have the noisy tire syndrome with my C-Max Hybrid, and I have read this thread looking for helpful information. I see lots of comments about people replacing their tires, but no mention of what tire brand, etc. that they replaced the originals with. I have always been a life long Michelin fan, but my experience with the C-Max has soured me on Michelins, and I blame them for the excessive noise. I am considering Continental TrueContact and Pirelli Cinturato P7 A/S Plus.

Comments ?



#69 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 08:58 PM

Roger, do your tires have inside edge wear and/or cupping?  My first set (factory) had both but I hadn't rotated as often as I should have and my rear camber was at the max (tires tilting in at top).  The cupping was also on the inside edge.  I replaced the rear upper control arms with adjustable ones and got the tires sitting up almost straight - now at minimum spec.  With my second set  I'm rotating every 5000 miles since that is what my Michelin dealer recommends and they do it for free.  Also, I ask for the front-to-back swap sides as Ford recommends.  So far at 23,000 miles on the new set they look perfect with no noise - of course there's a lot more miles to go.  The problem might not be the tires (but I'm no tire expert).


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#70 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 08:58 PM

I, too, have the noisy tire syndrome with my C-Max Hybrid, and I have read this thread looking for helpful information. I see lots of comments about people replacing their tires, but no mention of what tire brand, etc. that they replaced the originals with. I have always been a life long Michelin fan, but my experience with the C-Max has soured me on Michelins, and I blame them for the excessive noise. I am considering Continental TrueContact and Pirelli Cinturato P7 A/S Plus.

Comments ?

 

Roger, it is nice for me to see you posting. The spare tire thread you started helped me a lot.

 

It may not be the tires.

 

My figuring is that the 2013 C-Max was unintentionally designed to have a camber problem in the rear which causes wear on the inside edge of the tires.  Lots of posts about this camber problem. This may be due to not calculating the suspension right due to the battery in the back.  I first rotated my tires at 12K miles and there was a terrible noise up front.  4K later I rotated them back and the terrible noise was gone, and a lesser noise was on the back.  My dealer thought I should leave them them on the front and let them even out but I could not stand it.  Reversing the tires on the wheel only helped a bit.  My last rotation I simply switched the back left to right and the noise changed, initially louder and just different which lets me know it is not a bearing.  I did not want the vibration up front for it is very loud and may not be good for my fragile transmission (early 2013 trans before modification have been having problems.) 

 

Just today I was in a parking lot and ran through some water and parked.  Looking at the wet tracks, I noticed there was one edge portion of each of my tires which simply did not touch the ground. ( worse for the back tires )  Turning somewhat allowed me to see all 4 tires tracks without overlap.

 

I am wonder if this may apply to your noise, or are you talking general tire noise like when they are new.  Does the sound change after a rotation ?

 

I have tried to get Ford to fix it under warranty but have met resistance and unreturned calls.

 

I have two new Michelin tires I will use to replace the fronts when they are worn enough.  I was actually surprised that the tires, getting close to the wear marks, are gripping rather well.  The rears besides the edge wear are like 80% after 25K miles.

 

So you (and I) may need an alignment and it may have to involve either a camber kit or an adjustable rear camber arm for the original arm is not adjustable.

 

My fronts wear evenly.


Edited by obob, 08 May 2016 - 03:44 PM.


#71 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 09:05 PM

Roger, do your tires have inside edge wear and/or cupping?  My first set (factory) had both but I hadn't rotated as often as I should have and my rear camber was at the max (tires tilting in at top).  The cupping was also on the inside edge.  I replaced the rear upper control arms with adjustable ones and got the tires sitting up almost straight - now at minimum spec.  With my second set  I'm rotating every 5000 miles since that is what my Michelin dealer recommends and they do it for free.  Also, I ask for the front-to-back swap sides as Ford recommends.  So far at 23,000 miles on the new set they look perfect with no noise - of course there's a lot more miles to go.  The problem might not be the tires (but I'm no tire expert).

 

Did Ford pay for the arm or was that your expense ?



#72 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 09:28 PM

I paid for it - never really thought about getting Ford involved - the alignment was "in spec" and I hadn't rotated them very often so doubt I would have had a case.  I paid about $220 for the arms (here they are) and $60 labor IIRC for my alignment guy to put them in.  You can get cheaper ones that are fixed but I wanted adjustable since I intend to go past 250k miles and never want to have that alignment issue again.  So far I'm totally happy about it.


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#73 OFFLINE   Roger Eastman

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 01:16 PM

My first rotation didn't cause much of a problem, noise-wise, but when I rotated next so that the original rears were turning the opposite direction, the noise became pronounced. I then rotated them back to the original positions and the noise lessened, but is still noticeable. When my car was new, it had defective wheel bearings, which were replaced under warranty. I have had my tire situation checked by FORD and 2 different tire dealers, and they think that the tires appear to be wearing normally.

 

I think that we may be overlooking the obvious: that these particular tires are second-rate. In TireRack's test of them, they did not do particularly well in any category. I am very disappointed in Michelin, that they would even produce such a mediocre tire. I must say, I am a card carrying Geezer (age 84), and I have owned over 100 vehicles, most of them rolling on Michelin tires, and I have never run into such pronounced noise coming out of  a set of tires, and being told that it is "normal".

 

BTW I A friend of mine has a 2013 C-Max Hybrid and the posted tire pressure is 38psi, while my 2014 is posted at 40 psi, so FORD must have had something in mind.

 

I'm still looking to hear from someone that has given up on the Michelins and replaced them with something else. . . .

I know there is another thread on this very subject, but the last time that I looked, there didn't seem to be any solid conclusions.



#74 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 03:34 PM

I would raise your Tire PSI to 48-50 psi to lessen edge wear and I think alignment is very important.  Both of my sets of my Michelin sets of tires were noisy at 40-50K , but I got 64k out of them. BTW the Michelin's are good all around performance tires and get the Best MPG's. :)  I would recommend crisscrossing them so that they wear in both directions. :) 

 

Paul 



#75 OFFLINE   stephengoldberger

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:00 AM

My Michelin tires have become progressively noisier as they have worn (now down to between 6/32 and 7/32 on three of them, the fourth, unfortunately, is new).  I think it is characteristic of the tire/chassis combination.  Noise is worst in the 35-50 mph range, and pretty much is gone at high speeds.  Tires are evenly worn and rotated as needed.



#76 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 01:05 PM

My Michelin tires have become progressively noisier as they have worn (now down to between 6/32 and 7/32 on three of them, the fourth, unfortunately, is new).  I think it is characteristic of the tire/chassis combination.  Noise is worst in the 35-50 mph range, and pretty much is gone at high speeds.  Tires are evenly worn and rotated as needed.

How many miles and have you changed the direction of rotation? :)

 

Paul



#77 OFFLINE   stratosurfer

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:15 PM

This thread is quite informative. I believe I will install the upper control arm to make my rear camber adjustable as Snowstorm did. I did find this kit which is half the price: https://www.autopart...cB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I don't know if this is not as strong as the kit Snowstorm used, and I like the idea of only replacing the upper link.

The tire howling is starting to drive me a little nuts and is just as has been reported by others in this thread.

A question to the group; would it be dangerous to set the rear camber closer to zero, or maybe match the front -.7 degrees?

I as well intend to keep this car to 250K on the clock, currently at 85K.

 

Mark



#78 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:29 PM

This thread is quite informative. I believe I will install the upper control arm to make my rear camber adjustable as Snowstorm did. I did find this kit which is half the price: https://www.autopart...cB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I don't know if this is not as strong as the kit Snowstorm used, and I like the idea of only replacing the upper link.

The tire howling is starting to drive me a little nuts and is just as has been reported by others in this thread.

A question to the group; would it be dangerous to set the rear camber closer to zero, or maybe match the front -.7 degrees?

I as well intend to keep this car to 250K on the clock, currently at 85K.

 

Mark

 

The noise is wearing on me too.

 

Are you going to do it yourself ?  I have considered doing it myself but don't want to end up lacking equipment.  I am interested in how it works out for you.  I am considering getting another pair of tires but not sure of the cost of changing the camber will be worth it.

 

I bought one of these  

https://www.ebay.com...353.m2749.l2649

 

Sticking it through the wheel spokes onto the brake rotor with its magnet I estimated my camber at -2.125 which is around what others have reported.   ( Since my driveway is slanted I added the left and right wheel and divided by two.  It assumes the camber is the same for both wheels and the driveway is slanted the same for both wheels. )  There are youtube videos on how to use this tool.

 

As I recall from reading, camber of 0 gets better braking and acceleration because more rubber on the road.  Handling gets better up to a camber of -5.

 

One reason I might set it to .9 is if I were to get in an accident, I would not want it to be used against me.

 

I feel Ford really should fix this.  I was just thinking about a friend that will be looking for a car.  What should I say.  Get a C-Max but the rear tires wear badly and make noise and Ford doesn't care.  Or you need to rotate tires every 2500 miles.

 

I have thought about why it makes noise.  Surprisingly I did not find much on the Internet why the way I wanted.    My thinking: With a negative camber the outside of the wheel needs to have a larger diameter than the inside to match the road and it doesn't.  So tire fights against itself and slides or stretches.  And as the tire gets more worn, it can't stretch so much so it slides and vibrates.  And perhaps the aging of the rubber and temperature also makes the rubber less flexible.


Edited by obob, 01 December 2017 - 02:46 PM.


#79 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

I think it is from the feathering of inside and outside edges of tire, which I think is caused by the alignment and maybe tire construction.  I had a set of Goodyear Fuel Max tires on a 2007 Focus and they made a lot of noise because the alignment was out. :sad:  That is why I said change the direction of rotation every 10k miles. Using crisscrossing the tires moves the tire from front to back. :)  Need to check camber and toe in and I would set at minimums to minimize wear of the tires. 

 

Paul



#80 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:38 AM

Further thoughts:

  • The AutoParts Warehouse site says those arms don't fit C-Max - ??
  • I too am wondering how far you can go in reducing camber without causing other problems.  HOWEVER, we can't assume that excessive rear camber is the only cause of edge wear and cupping/noise.
  • I follow Ford's rotation pattern that puts each wheel on all 4 positions.  Since I bought a set of tires, my tire dealer rotates for free every 5000 miles.  I'm convinced that rotations are of utmost importance.
  • Now at 71k+ miles with only a bit of edge wear and, I think, a small amount of noise - vast improvement over first set.  Should make it to 75k miles and expect to hit the wear bars over the full width before the edge is too worn to be a problem.
  • That little level looks easy to use but you can also use a carpenter's level as described in other posts.
  • I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a C-Max - rotate per Ford's pattern at 5000 to 10,000 miles and few folks, IMO, should have a problem to 55k miles (the warranty).  Trying to get another 20k miles out of the tires is when it gets rather dicey.
  • As to the cause of noise, my tire dealer told me years back that undriven tires have always had a tendency to cup (alternating low-high spots around the tire that cause noise).  For front wheel drive that means the rear tires.  Again, rotations are essential.

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