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Ford C-Max vs Prius after 1 year

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50 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:05 PM

Fully loaded?!? No way in hell can I get that high going up the hill to Mammoth with that long elevation change over the trip. Coming back I can score > 50 MPG at load since I seem to average 46MPG overall for the round trip (and I score 38-40 MPG average going up).

 

Thats the thing, these MPG numbers needs to be put in context as there are big influences to the final MPG numbers - both internal ala load/AC and external such as elevation, traffic.

I'm talking about tank MPG#s and I don't use A/C or Heater unless I have too (better half in the car).LOL I'm amassed you get the mpg's you do, good job!  BTW I have gotten 49.9mpg for 100+miles going 80mph(west Texas) drafting some and 20-30mph tailwind, don't think it means much, but it was fun while it lasted. :yahoo: :) 

 

Paul









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#22 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:17 PM

My wife has a 2014 Passat TDI. We get around 43 MPG at 78 MPH. You are not going to get that in a C-Max. Like most hybrids, it is designed to maximize in town driving. I suspect one would get better MPG with the Jetta, which is smaller and lighter.

 

The C-Max also doesn't have anywhere near the pure power of a diesel. That is not a drag on the C-Max, it just isn't designed for the same thing.

 

I love my C-Max Energi, but I recognize where it shines, and where it is less than optimum.



#23 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:46 PM

My wife has a 2014 Passat TDI. We get around 43 MPG at 78 MPH. You are not going to get that in a C-Max. Like most hybrids, it is designed to maximize in town driving. I suspect one would get better MPG with the Jetta, which is smaller and lighter.

 

The C-Max also doesn't have anywhere near the pure power of a diesel. That is not a drag on the C-Max, it just isn't designed for the same thing.

 

I love my C-Max Energi, but I recognize where it shines, and where it is less than optimum.

I looked up the 0-60 time for CMAX and Passat TDI and the  CMAX was 7.8 vs Passat 8.2 sec. and given the HWY MPG#'s the CMAX is still cheaper to operate.  Gas is about 15% cheaper than Diesel. IMO :)

 

Paul



#24 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:10 PM

I looked up the 0-60 time for CMAX and Passat TDI and the  CMAX was 7.8 vs Passat 8.2 sec. and given the HWY MPG#'s the CMAX is still cheaper to operate.  Gas is about 15% cheaper than Diesel. IMO :)

 

Paul

I have driven both, and there is no comparison. The TDI is a real kick-in-the-pants at all speeds. And if you drive the C-Max that way, you won't get good mileage; you will get good mileage if you drive the TDI that way. There is no comparison for road travel, in my opinion. I like my C-Max on the highway, but for our long trips we will take the TDI. But that is also because of the huge trunk and rear space in the Passat; once again, simply no comparison (not that a comparison is needed for such different platforms).

 

There is also no comparison for in-town; the TDI gets a bit over 30, while the C-Max gets way more. The C-Max is custom designed for what it does - in town, with the ability to go on the road.

 

Gas is cheaper now, but it wasn't earlier this year, and probably will be again, especially here in CA, where they have special gas forumulas.


Edited by stevedebi, 03 November 2014 - 05:15 PM.


#25 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:45 PM

I have driven both, and there is no comparison. The TDI is a real kick-in-the-pants at all speeds. And if you drive the C-Max that way, you won't get good mileage; you will get good mileage if you drive the TDI that way. There is no comparison for road travel, in my opinion. I like my C-Max on the highway, but for our long trips we will take the TDI. But that is also because of the huge trunk and rear space in the Passat; once again, simply no comparison (not that a comparison is needed for such different platforms).

 

There is also no comparison for in-town; the TDI gets a bit over 30, while the C-Max gets way more. The C-Max is custom designed for what it does - in town, with the ability to go on the road.

 

Gas is cheaper now, but it wasn't earlier this year, and probably will be again, especially here in CA, where they have special gas forumulas.

Maybe it is because you are caring around extra 300lbs you think? Looking at the reviews it looks like NRG is a .5sec. slower than Hybrid.  All I know my CMAX gets up to speed very quickly when you stomp on the gas and the tires start to break loose at the start. :shift: :)

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 03 November 2014 - 05:45 PM.


#26 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 10:26 PM

Consumer Reports 2015 models                    jetta tdi / energi / hybrid / passat tdi
 
0 to 30 mph, sec.    3.6 3.3 3.4 3.6   spacer.gif
0 to 60 mph, sec.    9.5 8.1 8.4 9.8   spacer.gif
45 to 65 mph, sec . 6.0 5.3 5.1 6.1   spacer.gif
Quarter-mile, sec.   17.3 16.4 16.6 17.6   spacer.gif
Quarter-mile, mph   83 89 89 82

 

Energi is the fastest except for 45 to 65


Edited by obob, 03 November 2014 - 10:30 PM.

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#27 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:10 AM

CR doesn't have a very good rep with this forum.  I suppose we could average several Magazines numbers and get a more accurate number.

                           Hydrid         Energi

Edmunds               8.1sec         7.8sec

Car & Driver           7.9sec     

Motor trend            8.2sec         8.5sec

Motor Week                              8.5sec

Adding these numbers with CR you get 8.15sec Hybrid and 8.22sec Energi, pretty much a tie. :)

 

Paul



#28 OFFLINE   Husker4theSpurs

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 07:31 AM

Hybrids aren't designed for high speed driving and you would be better off with a WV Jetta TDI, on the down side CMAX gets 10-15mpg better in the city. BTW you can increase 2-4mpg by adding Grill Covers and Oil Pan Heater to CMAX. BTW if you have 50K miles and haven't had a battery problem you probably aren't going too. I have 77.6K miles and no battery problems. Keep in mind very few people have battery problems percentage wise. IMO :)
 
Paul


I understand hybrids don't do well at high speeds ... I was merely comparing my experience now to my experience with 3 Priuses. We have had the battery randomly discharge 4 times so we have experiences the battery problem.

#29 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 09:49 AM

CR doesn't have a very good rep with this forum.  I suppose we could average several Magazines numbers and get a more accurate number.

                           Hydrid         Energi

Edmunds               8.1sec         7.8sec

Car & Driver           7.9sec     

Motor trend            8.2sec         8.5sec

Motor Week                              8.5sec

Adding these numbers with CR you get 8.15sec Hybrid and 8.22sec Energi, pretty much a tie. :)

 

Paul

 

I agree.  It is pretty much a tie.  I was just surprised because I also thought the added weight might be a factor at normal driving speeds.



#30 OFFLINE   Smiling Jack

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 04:49 PM

I agree.  It is pretty much a tie.  I was just surprised because I also thought the added weight might be a factor at normal driving speeds.

 

True about the extra weight, but  - on the other hand - , the Energi has about 30 HP more (as a result of ability to deliver substantially more current to the electric motor); so, in some speed ranges it is definitely quicker.



#31 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 04:53 PM

The Passat is actually about 600 or so pounds lighter than my Energi. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the C-Max or Energi, or anything especially "right" about the Passat TDI, just that the diesel is more suited to highway travel. I saw some comments here that indicated folks didn't comprehend how good a diesel can be on the road, and since I own both I thought I'd chime in.

 

I think my Energi is about 300 lbs more than the hybrid only C-Max. That is one hulkin' big battery back there...

 

I never accelerate my C-Max like that unless there is a safety situation where I need the speed. Which seldom happens with careful hybrid-style driving.



#32 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 10:20 PM

The 2013 hybrid and Energi had different final drive ratio's. 2014's have the same 2:91 final drive ratio.



#33 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:53 PM

The 2013 hybrid and Energi had different final drive ratio's. 2014's have the same 2:91 final drive ratio.

What is the 2013 final drive ratio? Is that a software change? Technically the planetary drive doesn't have ratios like a conventional AT.



#34 OFFLINE   kostby

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:42 PM

Final Drive ratio on our 2013 Hybrid SE is 2.57 as reported on Ford ETIS on 4/29/2014 for our 2013 C-MAX SE.

 

Attached File  Screen Shot 2014-11-05 at 1.43.09 PM.png   68.23KB   0 downloads

 

Or not. According to a recent post by Rachel of Ford Service, ETIS is not the official Ford site for North American C-MAX info.


Edited by kostby, 05 November 2014 - 01:45 PM.


#35 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:57 PM

The 2013 hybrid and Energi had different final drive ratio's. 2014's have the same 2:91 final drive ratio.

 

What is the 2013 final drive ratio? Is that a software change? Technically the planetary drive doesn't have ratios like a conventional AT.

Last I heard was that it didn't happen, I believe someone checked Part#'s and they hadn't changed. I checked out FORDPARTS.com and all 2013-15 have the same Part# 7000 for the transmission. :)

 

Paul



#36 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 03:08 PM

Last I heard was that it didn't happen, I believe someone checked Part#'s and they hadn't changed. I checked out FORDPARTS.com and all 2013-15 have the same Part# 7000 for the transmission. :)

 

Paul

That is one reason I mentioned software. I think that the C-Max would be "programmable", rather than a different transmission. The hybrid transmission is completely different from a conventional transmission, which does have a "hardware" final ratio, based on the gearing.



#37 OFFLINE   ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 11:54 PM

I think that the C-Max would be "programmable", rather than a different transmission. The hybrid transmission is completely different from a conventional transmission, which does have a "hardware" final ratio, based on the gearing.

There was both a hardware and software change in the 2014 relating to the transmission. The 2013 had a software reprogram to closely match it, but we still have the previous hardware.

 

I am guessing that 2015 will be the year that Ford gets all of the last issues ironed out, and that they elected to perfect production of things before making any significant changes. That's just a total guess, but I have a feeling that it will go down this way in relation to quality of build and reliability. After that, Ford will be ready for whatever will come next.



#38 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 08:33 AM

That is one reason I mentioned software. I think that the C-Max would be "programmable", rather than a different transmission. The hybrid transmission is completely different from a conventional transmission, which does have a "hardware" final ratio, based on the gearing.

This is what Ford said

 

Last I heard was that it didn't happen, I believe someone checked Part#'s and they hadn't changed. I checked out FORDPARTS.com and all 2013-15 have the same Part# 7000 for the transmission. :)

 

Paul

Look at 7H348A - the Auto Trans Transfer Drive Gear.

 

The part number is the same for 2013 through 2015 MY.  But there are two choices for MY 2013 and MY 2015 - one for the Hybrid 2.57 and one for the NRG 2.91.  But for 2014, there are 4 choices: 2 for build dates before 8/3/2014 and 2 for build dates after 8/4/2014.  However, the 2 choices before and after the build dates still show the same final drive ratios as MY 2013 for the Hybrid and NRG.   

 

So, based on the above either Ford didn't change the final drive ratios (and changed something else with the drive gear assembly around 8/4) or there are errors in the Ford Parts listings.


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#39 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 12:17 PM

This is what Ford said

 

Look at 7H348A - the Auto Trans Transfer Drive Gear.

 

The part number is the same for 2013 through 2015 MY.  But there are two choices for MY 2013 and MY 2015 - one for the Hybrid 2.57 and one for the NRG 2.91.  But for 2014, there are 4 choices: 2 for build dates before 8/3/2014 and 2 for build dates after 8/4/2014.  However, the 2 choices before and after the build dates still show the same final drive ratios as MY 2013 for the Hybrid and NRG.   

 

So, based on the above either Ford didn't change the final drive ratios (and changed something else with the drive gear assembly around 8/4) or there are errors in the Ford Parts listings.

Interesting. I looked the part up, and the diagrams I saw are mostly for conventional AT. I guess that this limits the top revolution speed (or minimum speed, if you want to look at it that way). I didn't realize that the conventional hybrid and the Energi would have different capabilities.

 

So the CVT is infinitely variable up to the hardware maximum.


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#40 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 06:37 PM

Interesting. I looked the part up, and the diagrams I saw are mostly for conventional AT. I guess that this limits the top revolution speed (or minimum speed, if you want to look at it that way). I didn't realize that the conventional hybrid and the Energi would have different capabilities.

 

So the CVT is infinitely variable up to the hardware maximum.

Correct CVT infinitely variable within hardware constraints (includes MG1 and MG2 rpm constraints and the final drive gearing.  The best one could do (tallest overall gearing) is to put a holding torque on MG1 so that it does not spin when the engine is running.  Then, all engine rpms would be directed to the output shaft.  So, a numerically lower final drive ratio would yield lower engine rpm than a higher final drive ratio at the same vehicle speed. For highway cruising one wants to run ICE at the most efficient area of the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption map which is generally low rpm, high torque.  It's like up-shifting a  conventional transmission to a higher overdrive gear to lower engine rpm to improve FE.  This should be achieved in Negative-Split Mode Operation (from the Ford OBD System Operation Summary for Plug-in and Hybrid Vehicles):

 

Negative Split Mode
 The engine is on and the generator motor consumes electrical energy to reduce engine speed
 The traction motor can operate as a motor or a generator to make up the difference between the engine power and the desired power
 Typical highway mode
 Occurs when the engine needs to be on, the system can not be operated in parallel mode and the battery is charged near its upper limit
 

 

Prior to a PCM update of the Hybrid to increase the EV top speed from 62 mph to 85 mph, it was quite easy to get into negative split mode  by controlling the throttle and to stay in this mode for some time.  With EV operations now up to 85 mph, it harder to get into the mode (keeping the battery charged near its upper limit) as any slight decrease in power requirements can trigger EV operation at higher speeds.  

 

The different final drive ratio for the hybrid and NRG supposedly was to improve performance of the NRG given it's extra weight (larger HVB) such that both vehicles would be very similar performance wise.  My guess is the PCM algorithms for both the NRG and Hybrid are the same once the NRG enters Hybrid mode operation.  So, by numerically increasing the NRG final drive over the Hybrid ratio, the NRGs low end performance would be improved somewhat. 








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