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EV Miles Question


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 06:20 PM

Just wondering in the regular hybrid and it shows

700.7/477.4 EV using 13.46 gallons and 52.06 MPG

 

To me this would mean 477 miles were done in EV mode...which would mean NO GAS used.

Which means 223.3 miles were done on the engine and 477.4 EV.

 

So what exactly is the EV miles?

Just wondering I am looking into getting a C-Max, my commute is perfect for one. 38 mile round trip 5 stops at an average speed of 43mph.  Most 45 to 55mph and 2 25mph sections that are about 1 mile a piece.  All flat land.

 

I did a search and couldn't find anything.

 

Thanks









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#2 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 06:27 PM

Just wondering in the regular hybrid and it shows

700.7/477.4 EV using 13.46 gallons and 52.06 MPG

 

To me this would mean 477 miles were done in EV mode...which would mean NO GAS used.

Which means 223.3 miles were done on the engine and 477.4 EV.

 

So what exactly is the EV miles?

Just wondering I am looking into getting a C-Max, my commute is perfect for one. 38 mile round trip 5 stops at an average speed of 43mph.  Most 45 to 55mph and 2 25mph sections that are about 1 mile a piece.  All flat land.

 

I did a search and couldn't find anything.

 

Thanks

EV includes the regernation achieved from slowing down, but yes, that is the amount of miles in electric mode.



#3 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 06:37 PM

Then this car got 16.58mpg.....that's what doesn't make sense.  It took 13.46 gallons of gas to go 223.3 miles on the gas engine.



#4 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 06:59 PM

Then this car got 16.58mpg.....that's what doesn't make sense.  It took 13.46 gallons of gas to go 223.3 miles on the gas engine.

Not quite. 

 

Think about what is the source of the energy in the C-Max?  From the fuel burned. ;)  Charging the high voltage battery is not "free".

 

Some of the 13.46 gallons was used by ICE to propel the car (or warming up the car when stopped), the rest of the 13.46 gallons was used to charge the high voltage battery to propel the car via EV and to provide power for the electrical equipment . Some of the energy used to propel the car is recaptured via the traction motor acting as a generator when coasting and braking (regeneration).


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 01 December 2014 - 07:02 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 08:50 PM

So it acts like a generator like the volt does?
So you can cruise like 50 miles in ev but since the
Battery charge is low the ice will run as a generator
But you will still be cruising in ev?

#6 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:27 PM

So it acts like a generator like the volt does?
So you can cruise like 50 miles in ev but since the
Battery charge is low the ice will run as a generator
But you will still be cruising in ev?

You need to read up on hybrid drive systems. Suffice it to say that ICE can charge the hybrid HVB and propel the car simultaneously. The size and thus the normal operating range of the C-max Hybrid HVB is very limited compared to the Energi and Volt. So, the EV range is very limited. So, ICE cycles on when the HVB falls below a threshold and when the battery nears it's upper operating range, the EV on threshold increases and ICE shuts off allowing EV operation. So it's a continual cycling of ICE/EV depending on conditions as one drives.

 

So, when cruising at say 65 mph, EV range might be around 1- 2 mile on flat ground.  The C-Max Hybrid can operate up to 85 in EV mode but for a very limited range.

 

On last point, since the Volt has two clutches, ICE can charge the battery (I think its called charge sustaining mode) and the car can stay in EV mode with ICE running but not propelling the car. 


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 01 December 2014 - 10:12 PM.


#7 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 09:51 PM

How far can the cmax go in ev range?
1 or 2 miles?

#8 OFFLINE   Kelleytoons

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:38 PM

I think you're looking at this all wrong.

 

While all the information provided is correct, it gives an inaccurate picture of how the C-Max operates.  It is constantly cycling on and off from EV to ICE mode, depending on how you drive.  You generate enough to operate in EV mode, and then you go back to ICE, but it's not like you drive for 10 minutes in ICE and, say 30 minutes in EV.  It's more like 1 and 3 minutes.  But it works out the same.

 

Typically when not using A/C I average around 50-60 mpg driving at the speeds you are talking about.  But you need to learn to drive correctly (which is actually the same way you *should* be driving in any car) keeping your foot off the brake and gas as much as possible.  It becomes second nature (I've been driving this way for 30 years and don't even think about it) but if you've never done it your mileage may vary (YMMV :>).



#9 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:50 PM

My 03 Passat 5 speed 1.8t I get 32mpg
Out of it. I drive pretty conservatively, and coast about
3 miles or more a day so I got the driving down now to just
Get a cmax and go for the 600 mile club.
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#10 OFFLINE   Kelleytoons

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:47 AM

Yes, I don't think you'll have any troubles getting into the 600 mile club.  And it doesn't mean you still can't "punch it" when you need to (unlike the Prius, which is pretty gutless).  You just don't want to make a regular habit out of doing that but save it for those merging times when you need to get up to speed in a hurry.


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#11 OFFLINE   scottwood2

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 08:42 AM

There is more to this than this general statement but generally the ICE is also better at getting you up to speed and the EV mode is good at keeping you there. 

 

My route is similar to yours and I can get into the 50+ MPG on this route in warmer weather.  Cold Michigan weather drops this to upper 30's to mid 40 MPG.  

 

I have hit 60 MPG or better many times as well.  Overall MPG since Sept is about 47 now.


Edited by scottwood2, 02 December 2014 - 08:43 AM.

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#12 OFFLINE   korax234

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 09:44 AM

That's what's nice in Arizona, coldest it might get is into the 20's but that's maybe a few days out of the year.

There's a couple of Used C-Max's around here for 21k with less then 20,000 miles on them.  Seems like a

good deal.  There was even just a 2013 that sold for 17995 with 40k miles on it.

 

Thanks for all the info.



#13 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 11:58 AM

Just wondering in the regular hybrid and it shows

700.7/477.4 EV using 13.46 gallons and 52.06 MPG...

 

Then this car got 16.58mpg.....that's what doesn't make sense.  It took 13.46 gallons of gas to go 223.3 miles on the gas engine.

 

My 03 Passat 5 speed 1.8t I get 32mpg out of it.

Welcome to the world of gas-powered hybrids!

 

You've found one of the oddest aspects:

-  you want poor mileage when the engine's running, but

- you don't want the engine running!

 

Think of what I call ICE mileage = (total miles - EV miles)/fuel used, as a measure of your efficiency as a driver. The lower your ICE mileage, the more energy you're getting out of the fuel when you're using fuel. The idea is based on "brake specific fuel consumption" (BSFC), a dynomometer test that looks at:

- brake means power at the dynomometer brake. In the 1960's horsepower wars, engine power was measured at the output shaft without accessories of transmission losses. It gave a higher number, useful when HP sold cars, and analogous to EPA mileage ratings today.

- specific means you're looking at energy delivered per mass of fuel, typically grams/kWH

- fuel consumption is the inverse of mileage (fuel per mile, not miles per fuel)

 

... but the resulting charts are not what you might expect. (Scroll down for Toyota hybrid engines, and recent VW diesels)

 

Minimum BSFC is found where you have high load (high power output) and low RPM (low power, because power is proprotional to torque x RPM). You get the most energy from your fuel running at low RPM - makes sense - but only when you have high load!

 

And this is what makes hybrids efficient - only running the gas engine when you can put high load on it. The lower your ICE mileage, the more efficient your driving style at extracting energy from the fuel.

 

My experience is based on having two commuting routes:

- a rural route with 12 stop lights and 6 stop signs where I average about 30 mph, door-to-door

my ICE mileage this summer was ~14.5 mpg, but

my overall mileage over this period was 56.1 mpg, becasue

I was only running the ICE 26% of the time

- a highway route with 5 stop lights and 2 stop signs where I average about 45 mph, but with 55- and 65-mph speed limits

my typical highway ICE mileage is 27 mpg, but

my overall mileage over this period was 47 mpg, because

I was running the ICE over 57% of the time

 

The other pertinent example is the VW TDI engine, which routinely gets high-40's in highway driving, which I can only match in the best of conditions. The last chart in the BSFC chart link is the 2.0L TDI engine, which is a good 10% more efficient than the best Toyota engine shown (presumed the Prius' Atkinson engine). Diesels have real advantages...

 

The one caveat to all this is RPM management. I improved my mileage 10-15% in my second year driving the C-Max because I'm doing a better job of keeping RPM down, which means slower acceleration and longer time to speed, but also more energy stored in the battery. By keeping RPM down, the longer burns don't use any more fuel, but the higher battery charge means longer EV glides.

 

You'll also find every hill in what you currently think of as "flat" land; use them wisely as hills are your friend! 

 

Have fun,

Frank


Edited by fbov, 02 December 2014 - 12:02 PM.

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#14 OFFLINE   shinytop

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:11 PM

My daily drive to work is about 2/3 45 mph speed limit and the rest 30-35.  On that drive I get 52-60 depending on lights and jerks pulling out in front of me.  My EV mileage is typically 2/3 of the total mileage.  On interstate driving 65-75 my mileage is 42 mpg and my EV miles are about 1/4 of my total mileage.  I use both A/C and heat sparingly as either pulls down the mileage. 



#15 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 01:35 PM

So it acts like a generator like the volt does?
So you can cruise like 50 miles in ev but since the
Battery charge is low the ice will run as a generator
But you will still be cruising in ev?

I looked, but nobody explained the difference. The Volt has only electric motors for propulsion. The ICE is used only to provide electricity. The C-Max (and other gas/electrics) use the gas engine to either provide traction to the wheels, or to drive the electric motor. When necessary, the C-Max has the capability to recharge the main battery, but there is very little available power (.5 KW hours).  It will also recharge the main battery when the car is decellerating, by putting the kenetic energy (speed) of the vehicle back into the battery. This is known as regenerative braking. The C-Max will attempt to go into EV whenever there is enough power at the time in the main battery, at any speed up to 85 MPH.

 

This is a very high level description, and no doubt others will want to correct my basic words!

 

As others have said, you would benefit from reading about the different types of hybrids and electric cars.


Edited by stevedebi, 02 December 2014 - 01:36 PM.


#16 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 02:01 PM

 The Volt has only electric motors for propulsion. The ICE is used only to provide electricity.

 

This is a very high level description, and no doubt others will want to correct my basic words!

 

No, the Volt can and does use the ICE for partial propulsion in certain situations once the battery is depleted.  It never provides FULL propulsion.  



#17 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 04:09 PM

Here's a good video tutorial (3 parts) on the Volt hybrid system as well a as a  demonstration video of how the Prius transaxle works (it's also applicable to the C-Max).  



#18 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 11:08 AM

... the C-Max has the capability to recharge the main battery, but there is very little available power (.5 KW hours). 

Got a reference for this?

 

Granted, we only use ~40% of battery capacity, but that's still ~0.6 kWh, and mine only needs a couple minutes to charge if I drive it right. Plus, you've mixed your units... Power is kW, a rate of energy delivery. Energy is kWh, power integrated over the time it's applied.  

 

Have fun,

Frank



#19 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 02:55 PM

Got a reference for this?

 

Granted, we only use ~40% of battery capacity, but that's still ~0.6 kWh, and mine only needs a couple minutes to charge if I drive it right. Plus, you've mixed your units... Power is kW, a rate of energy delivery. Energy is kWh, power integrated over the time it's applied.  

 

Have fun,

Frank

I got the number from the two Energi forums, based on a bunch of different postings.

 

Larryh determined the number I gave, based on the available energy used. He determined it was a low of around 33% of SOC, and a high of 66% - based on the conventional hybrid models, resulting in the .5 KW available energy. From what I have read here on the forums, both the C-Max and Fusion Energi platforms use the same "sustaining" energy capability as the "normal" hybrid only versions. Sustaining is what is used on the highway, i.e. EV later or when the HVB is completely depleted from Auto mode.

 

From what I can tell, the software reserves a set amount of the HVB when we go to EV Later. That amount is the same as the available energy in the conventional hybrid.

 

Sorry if I used the wrong terminology!



#20 OFFLINE   SPL Tech

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 04:51 AM

That's what's nice in Arizona, coldest it might get is into the 20's but that's maybe a few days out of the year.

There's a couple of Used C-Max's around here for 21k with less then 20,000 miles on them.  Seems like a

good deal.  There was even just a 2013 that sold for 17995 with 40k miles on it.

 

 

LOL those are not good deals unless they are 14's. That's way over market value. CMAXes do not retain value well, and drop $10k in the first two years alone. A quick look on Car Gurus shows many Cmax SEs going for under $17k with some as few as 15k miles, and most under 40k. Some are going for just over $15k with no more than 60k miles.


Edited by SPL Tech, 26 December 2014 - 04:53 AM.







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