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End Of The ICE-Age

EV ICE Battery Cost

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58 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 05:01 PM

well last week  I gave up my ICE.....on my 15 year old string trimmer and hand held blower.    and purchased  a Dewalt 4amp 40v  string trimmer and handheld blower...

 

Got tired of having the one gallon gas can with mix fuel,  just sitting....for at last a month between fill-ups....  so down to one 5 gallon gas can for the 20 year old mower.   Man I wish I could figure out a way to turn it into an electric with a usable range....

They have the electric powered lawn mowers at Lowe's. LOL :)

 

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#42 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 05:16 PM

Yeah, and just to be a contraian, we gave up on our all-electric pressure washer, which was pitiful compared to the gas-only powered one we have.

 

I assume in this particular analogy, it's a lot like those heavy duty trucks folks say need to be ICE -- pressure washers, in order to have any sort of power or reliability, need to be gas (all others are for amateurs -- I know, I was one and there is no comparison).

 

I still say the future is something we really can't see, although it's pretty funny that nearly all future "guesses" of over 30 years had cars being either electric, or flying, or something other than what they still are.  Who knows, perhaps the self-driving roadway will be what we ALL have, with our "stops" simply swapping out the ride for another, fully charged one.

 

Problem with electric ones is that the residential ones are designed to use 120 VAC, 15 A circuits.  To get higher pressures and flow like the gas ones, the HP rating would likely need to be at least 4 HP (which is likely more expensive than a gas 4 HP engine) and would require a circuit to handle 3000 Watts (240 VAC circuit).

 

For example, my pressure washer is rated at 2600 psi @ 2.2 gallons / minute with the 15* tip in.  That equates to a motor with a 4.0 HP output to drive the pump. 



#43 OFFLINE   Marc Smith

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:10 PM

Full disclosure....I am the landscape manager at a university in Washington, D.C... My crews were given the opportunity to demo dewalts full line of the 40v landscape tools. For the entire year last year. I went out and used the tools and was able to get a bit more than an hours run time out of the sting trimmer with very comparable performance to a gas powered unit. Some thing with the hedge trimmer and hand held blower.

So this spring I went out and purchased the trimmer and blower at retail price for my own use at home. One of my crews likes the tools so much that they won't use the gas powered equipment anymore....

Pressure washers are still a lame duck from an electric point of view. Home owner use. Unlikely to get over 2000psi and under 2 gpm. Where as even a nice gas powered unit from Home Depot. Will come close to doubling that....

We also demoed stihls battery line up. Was not impressed. From a commercial point of view...

I'm getting the chance to get a closer look at the mean green line up of mower this week.
http://www.meangreenproducts.com/

15k for a lawn mower is a bit steep... But...from a green point of view. I could probably swing it at work. Considering a comparable gas powered unit is about 12k

2k for a 21" push mower is also a bit steep. But going green is not cheap from an initial investment point of view...

I've got an acre at home. And. No way anything I buy at lowes or hd. Will do me any good. I'm not walking, although I should to lose the spare tires around my waist..

#44 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:15 PM

.... Who knows, perhaps the self-driving roadway will be what we ALL have, with our "stops" simply swapping out the ride for another, fully charged one.

The intent was that the "self-driving roadway" would use personal electric vehicles you drive right out of your garage - and it would power and charge them as they drive.  I think Americans aren't that in tune with "public" transportation - we want a private car (I do) that we always use, not some public car that who-knows-who has been in lugging around who-knows-what!  Long distance trips could be non-stop - the car could be like a mini motor-home - 24 hours and you've crossed the continent using less than 100 Watt-Hours / mile - and when you exit, it would be fully charged.  We could do it!  Good grief - we went to the moon when I was a kid, many moons ago!



#45 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 09:28 PM

Time moves on.... the ICE keeps melting.  The VW camper van returns - fully electric!  [They just better include 120/240VAC outputs to eliminate those noisy campground generators!]

 

"It’s just one of 30 (yes, thirty) fully electric models that Volkswagen wants to have on sale by 2025. If anyone’s preparing for forthcoming bans on petrol and diesel, it appears to be VW…"

 

Bans???  Where Diesel has gone, can Otto be far behind?


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#46 OFFLINE   C-MaxSea

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 08:18 PM

"Just make it already.”  That is what we have been saying for years - especially a camper (have loved all the concept videos over the years).

 

Can't stand ICE vehicles anymore, especially diesel.  And to imagine that I once pondered a conversion to diesel for our VW MV - Eeeeek !



#47 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:36 PM

We now have a date!  The ICE age ends in just 33 years!  80% gone in just 13 years!



#48 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 09:17 PM

Its warm down south - 2 more ICEbergs melt!

 

$1 billion for Mercedes to build electric SUVs and batteries in Alabama.

    "four different vehicles in its EQ series of dedicated battery-electric vehicles by 2022"

    "accelerated plans to offer even more by 2025 as a number of factors have combined to make electric vehicles increasingly urgent"

News from VW is that:

    "the company expects to bring electric SUV production to the United States and could add production at its Tennessee plant."

 

Other news:

    "Daimler is investing 10 billion Euros (about $10.8 billion) to make it [electric cars] happen."

    "Mercedes-Benz’s ... announced plans to launch a battery-powered heavy-duty truck ... 124 miles of range"

    "Porsche has promised it will turn the Mission E concept into a production model by 2019."

    Audi has "promised to release three electric cars by 2020, including a large SUV and a big sedan."

    "Jaguar is turning the i-Pace concept into a production car aimed squarely at the Model X."

 

And here:

    Volvo "said in July all of its models launched after 2019 would be electric or hybrids."


Edited by SnowStorm, 21 September 2017 - 09:17 PM.

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#49 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 10:34 PM

As I understand it, Volkswagen building EVs at their Tennessee plant is part of the settlement with the EPA for the Diesel scandal.


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#50 OFFLINE   HotPotato

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 01:34 AM

"Just make it already.”  That is what we have been saying for years - especially a camper (have loved all the concept videos over the years).
 
Can't stand ICE vehicles anymore, especially diesel.  And to imagine that I once pondered a conversion to diesel for our VW MV - Eeeeek !


Yep. Every year, VW trots out another "Microbus reborn as an electric vehicle" for the car shows, promises to build it, and then flakes out. Another year, another 2-tone electric van with lots of seats and windows, another broken promise to build it. Like clockwork. Supposedly this time with the ID Buzz it's different. I'll believe it when I see it at the dealer with a Monroney sticker in the window.

I've come pretty close to trading the C-Max for a Chevy Bolt EV. But the driver's seat is a deal killer, like sitting in a narrow but attractively upholstered lawn chair, complete with having to slide over a hard metal frame under the edge every time you enter or exit the car. If I could put C-Max seats in the Bolt, they'd have a sale. Actually, one guy did in fact put the seats from his rear-ended VW Jetta into his Bolt EV. Swapped the Bolt's airbag modules into the seats in place of the VW ones, and off to the races. Others have figured out how much additional foam to put in the Chevy seat, what kind, how and where -- and honestly I could do that the same afternoon I bought the car, it's not a complicated job. I'd still have to figure something out for the permanently forward tilting headrest constantly knocking at my skull, though -- by far my least favorite thing about modern cars. It's lovely that the C-Max lets you ratchet the headrest back...one of my favorite things about the car, even though it's a small thing.
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#51 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 09:14 AM

Yes, some of those "small things" are really some of the biggest.  Everything that touches us, or that we touch, in a car is a prime candidate for being a "big thing".  To me, seats are such a "big thing" that I just don't understand why car makers can't spend a few more dollars to put in really nice ones.  Good grief, can it cost more than one or two hundred extra in their cost to upgrade seats to "first class"?  I doubt it.  Would it kill a sale to add that one or two hundred bucks to the price?  No way, not after you sit in a fabulous seat.  Before buying the C-Max I sat in an SUV (Mazda I think) and my back started aching in about a minute, just sitting there!  Didn't bother with a test drive!  Shucks, we should go back to the "50s" with flat seats and coil springs.  IIRC (might be questionable!) they were generally more comfortable. But then "bucket seats" became the rage and now we all sit, all bolstered up, with our butts in a bucket - and it's about that comfortable!  Who sleeps all night on a mattress built like a car seat - flat webbing with some foam and lots of bolsters?  Mattresses are made to adjust to any body shape and, just have a look around, there are lots of shapes.  Maybe we need a federal standard for seat comfort.  Now wouldn't that be a challenge to write!  On second thought, maybe we don't!



#52 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 07:52 PM

Melting ICE can get a bit messy but it keeps melting anyway!

From this report:

  1. Passenger EV sales were below expectations for a number of years causing an oversupply of batteries, but:
  2. A large demand growth is forecast and "battery manufacturers have announced further capacity build despite oversupply."
  3. Electric buses used far more batteries than other passenger vehicles in 2016.
  4. Battery pack prices are forecast to fall to as little as $73 / kWh by 2030.  They were $1000 in 2010.
  5. Batteries will be only 18% of car cost by 2030.
  6. It looks like EVs will be cheaper than ICE cars by 2025 (slide 8).
  7. Batteries from used EVs become stationary storage.  "Daimler, GM, BMW and Nissan are actively engaged in second-life repurposing."

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#53 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:15 PM

Money melts more ICE as VW commits $25 billion to EV batteries!  More news about the end of the ICE Age:

  1. VW Chief Executive Matthias Mueller says "We have pulled out all the stops over the past months to implement the Roadmap E swiftly and resolutely,”
  2. VW to have 16 plants globally by 2022 building ICE free ("zero emission") cars (3 plants at present).
  3. A goal of the VW group is to sell 3 million electric cars per year by 2025.
  4. All 300 models in the VW group to have an electric version by 2030.
  5. For 3 years a 260 foot ferry in Norway has run all day, 7 days/week on electricity!
  6. France intends to end all ICE car sales by 2040.

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#54 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 05:09 PM

 

Money melts more ICE as VW commits $25 billion to EV batteries!  More news about the end of the ICE Age:

  1. VW Chief Executive Matthias Mueller says "We have pulled out all the stops over the past months to implement the Roadmap E swiftly and resolutely,”
  2. VW to have 16 plants globally by 2022 building ICE free ("zero emission") cars (3 plants at present).
  3. A goal of the VW group is to sell 3 million electric cars per year by 2025.
  4. All 300 models in the VW group to have an electric version by 2030.
  5. For 3 years a 260 foot ferry in Norway has run all day, 7 days/week on electricity!
  6. France intends to end all ICE car sales by 2040.

 

 

To be "fair," VW's sudden interest in Electric cars is largely based on their settlement with the US government over Diesel-gate -- VW is to build EVs in the US and to invest $2 billion dollars in Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) infrastructure, such as building charging stations: 

https://www.epa.gov/...al-11-18-16.pdf


Edited by raadsel, 14 March 2018 - 05:10 PM.

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#55 OFFLINE   HotPotato

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 04:50 AM

The real problem with EV is the charging time of a half an hour or more is inconvenient when compared to 10min. gas fill up. Going Cross Country would be a pain. ;)

 

Paul

 

Most people use their cars to commute. Plug it in when you get home, and you have a full tank every morning without ever going to a nasty gas station. That's a time saving, not a time suck.

 

But sure, sometimes you take a road trip. So have a different car for road trips. Or buy a PHEV, with gas still on board. Or buy a Tesla, which has a giant battery and can charge twice as fast as others; unless you have a trucker-level bladder you're gonna have to stop to pee and eat periodically anyway.

 

It's true that there aren't as many charging stations as gas stations, and charging times for all but Teslas are a bit pokey. But that will change.



#56 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 08:44 AM

Most people use their cars to commute. Plug it in when you get home, and you have a full tank every morning without ever going to a nasty gas station. That's a time saving, not a time suck.

 

But sure, sometimes you take a road trip. So have a different car for road trips. Or buy a PHEV, with gas still on board. Or buy a Tesla, which has a giant battery and can charge twice as fast as others; unless you have a trucker-level bladder you're gonna have to stop to pee and eat periodically anyway.

 

It's true that there aren't as many charging stations as gas stations, and charging times for all but Teslas are a bit pokey. But that will change.

For now a PHEV/Hybrid are more practical if you only have one vehicle and affordable, I'm getting my moneys worth out of MADMAX with 189k miles. :yahoo:  

 

Paul 



#57 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 04:41 PM

Another option for longer trips, especially if infrequent, is to simply rent that second car.  It could be a lot cheaper and you can pick the type of vehicle best suited to a particular trip.

 

As to charging, we really need standardized high rate charging!!!  Imagine if you could only get gasoline for your Ford at a Ford gasoline station!  Insane.

 

Now for "the end of the ice age", SnowStorm might have to eat his prediction.  Its snowing away like mad in VA right now!  Oops, wrong ICE!


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#58 OFFLINE   markd

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:10 AM

Electricity is really expensive here in Indiana. I've calculated that gas would have to be more than six dollars a gallon before electricity would be cheaper.

#59 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:16 AM

Electricity is really expensive here in Indiana. I've calculated that gas would have to be more than six dollars a gallon before electricity would be cheaper.

That seems surprising.  Fueleconomy.gov uses 12 cents per kW-Hr for average electric rate and 0.25 to 0.35 kW-Hr per mile for EV consumption (excepting the Tesla X).  Using 0.30 kW-Hr per mile gives 3.6 cents per mile.  At the 40 mpg EPA C-Max rating, electricity would cost $1.44 which is way below anyones gasoline price per gallon.  Fuel for an average EV costs 54% of a C-Max.  Plus an EV eliminates all the time and cost of ICE maintenance.








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