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Transmission Leak


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39 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   cmax-nynj

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:39 AM

Are there Taxi shops around?  They may be familiar with the Ford Hybrid Transmission repair/replacement for less money.  Personally I would sell the car and not bother with any repair at that mileage.









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#22 OFFLINE   Marc Smith

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:49 AM

so far no leaks on my trans.  only 70k miles though... on my 2013...

 

it does suck that there is no way to easily check fluid levels.  I guess car makers are thinking that most car owners aren't smart enough to care...

 

simple dfact that by the time the seals fail and leak out and it causes a problem,  the car will be so far out of warranty the car maker won't care.



#23 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:54 AM

If you have a ScanGaugeII or some other OBDII gauge system you can monitor the Trans Fluid temp(TFT) and you will see it go up when you are losing fluid.

 

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#24 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:14 PM

Exactly, you can buy an ELM327 for well under $20 and spend $4.99 for the ForScan App.  I assume everyone has a Smartphone. :)  The Service Manual has typical reference values or many PIDs including TFT for different speeds and so forth.  I've said this before, ForScan is worth it just to monitor tire pressure.   Ford could have easily developed an App for Sync 2 and displayed PID data like temps and pressures on the center display.  But, I understand these Apps aren't for most owners.

 

See Transmission Oil Temperature (TOT) in the attached chart.  Here's Ford's comment on the reference values:

"Reference values may vary 20% depending on operating conditions, altitude, and other factors. 

Values are taken at an altitude of approximately 189 meters (620 ft) above sea level with the engine at normal operating temperature and accessories off."  

 

Ambient Air Temperature is around 75F and Cylinder Head Temperature (used to estimate ECT) is in the 195 to 205F range for the reference values.  IIRC from my recording Engine Coolant Temperature vs CHT, ECT is around 5 to 7 degrees less than CHT.  So, by displaying AAT, CHT, ECT, TOT and Vehicle Speed Sensor one can get a good feel as to what the normal relationship is among these variables and should be able to see if any are out of line like TOT might be on low fluid.

 

There are software monitors that check PID values on startup and continuously and will issue driver warnings and throw DTCs.  But a driver does not want to continually see warnings for small imbalances.  So, the trigger values are generally to prevent damage to the powertrain components. One can likely operate on a considerable loss of fluid before a trigger level is reached.

 
Attached File  reference values.JPG   166.02KB   0 downloads


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 09 March 2019 - 09:37 AM.


#25 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 01:50 PM

Just brought the sick puppy home - fluid is blowing back everywhere under the car.  Checked the level - might be down a quart, and in only 50 some miles!  Don't think I'll be driving around and topping off occasionally!  Dealer says there is a noise in the transmission (car on a lift) but to me its still quite faint, you hear something at lower speeds but nothing at 55 and up.  176k miles and The Enterprise is dead.  Sad.  At least they only charged me $60.  Not sure what's next.



#26 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 03:43 PM

Maybe try a dose of transmission stop leak?  Might make it "driveable" until the transmission fails because of noise (bearing?). 

 

How did they know the transmission needs replaced as I thought there is a kit to replace the bearing as long the damage wasn't severe.  But, IIRC, they have to remove transmission to check.  There's a TSB that describes it. 



#27 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 05:52 PM

How about trying some HI-Temp silicon rubber to seal it up? :headscratch:

 

Paul



#28 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 06:01 PM

Hmm... I'll have a look at stop-leak products.  I have no real idea exactly where its leaking and don't think you can get at it from outside.  As to noise, mine is nothing like the grinding/thumping that requires that bearing kit.  As I understood the service guy, with all those miles you're likely to get in there and find bad parts that you can't get - just wouldn't be worth it.



#29 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:07 AM

I wonder if TSB 15-0174 describes the issue: RTV failure of damper to transmission case seal. I don’t believe the stop leak products will “work” on RTV sealant. https://ford.oemdtc....14-ford-Lincoln

Note this TSB applies to transmissions prior to 12/1/2013 in case you decide to replace with a used transmission. I would assume the damper housing would be included as part of a used transmission.

#30 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:58 AM

I'm thinking the only place it could be leaking is at the surface where the trans and ICE bolt together so If you put a bead of the HI-Temp Copper Silicon Rubber around to above the level of the trans fluid it would slow the leak a lot. There is no real pressure inside the trans to force the fluid out. IMO :)

 

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#31 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 11:14 AM

Here's 3 pics of the transmission.  The TSB describes the leak between the damper housing cover and transmission case.  If fluid leaks only when driving, the leak would likely be above the fill / check plug.  Perhaps, if you removed some of the stuff on top of the engine, you might be able to see enough of the top of the transmission to find the leak.  Also, maybe try tightening some of the bolts you can reach.  I have never looked at how accessible the bolts are. 18 lb-ft of torque isn't much if you can get a wrench on many of the 22 bolts.  Dealer likely won't do that as it's not fixing the issue - sealant failure.

 

1st pic: The damper cover is shown in blue.  It bolts onto the transmission body. Fluid is on the transmission side of the damper cover.  The upper image shows where the RTV sealant is applied.  The damper would be between the cover and the engine (not shown here). 

Attached File  Transmission Damper Cover.JPG   68.98KB   0 downloads

 

2nd pic: The pic shows the damper cover attached to transmission and then the assembly can be bolted to engine. If there is transmission fluid on the engine side of the damper cover, the transmission input shaft seal is likely bad.

Attached File  Transmission to Engine.JPG   29.49KB   0 downloads

 

3rd pic:  The upper image of pic show the engine with damper in place but damper cover (transmission) not attached.  The damper of the damper assembly which connects the flywheel to the input shaft of the transmission has been removed in the lower image. 

Attached File  Damper bolted to flywheel.JPG   72.39KB   0 downloads



#32 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 01:25 PM

Thanks for the pics!  I checked a few bolts and they were quite tight but not with a torque wrench yet.  It still seems like its leaking out between the bell housing and engine so might be that seal.  I thnik I'll clean it off again, run a bit and see where it shows up first.  I don't have much faith in stop leak stuff but if its the seal maybe its worth a try.(?)



#33 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 03:57 PM

I wouldn't worry about a torque wrench.  If you can get any size wrench on a bolt, just tighten it up about the same as you would tighten spark plugs.

 

Below are a parts diagram and list of parts for the HF35.  Looks like there are three shaft seals (input, left and right half shaft), a manual control lever seal.  Then, there's would be the sealant for the damper housing and the end cover.  I don't see any seals for the electrical connectors so maybe a sealant is used.

 

 Attached File  hf35.JPG   109.15KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Item.pdf   283.93KB   5 downloads



#34 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:41 PM

Thanks +3!  So input seal is 7048.  From the CSP 14B03 the complete part # is DG9Z-7048-A.  Its only $3.53 here and appears widely available.  I wonder about all the other parts listed for a repair.  Also, does anyone know if the engine/transaxle has to come out the bottom or can it come up with an engine hoist?  I'll wipe things off and have another look tomorrow.



#35 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 05:07 AM

It’s 14b07. https://ford.oemdtc....x-fusion-hybrid

The transaxle and engine come out together from the top with hoist. When one looks at various TSBs and when I look at the manual for removing unit, it’s labor intensive - about 10+ hours shop time is generally what is shown. It does involve working with the HV system. So, many independent shops could do the job but may not want to work on it. If the leak is from where the damper housing bolts to the engine, then it’s likely the input shaft seal. If the seal is a rubber seal, maybe stop leak might work.

#36 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 07:00 AM

I have 92K so far, I'll have them look for leaks at next oil change.  Not looking forward to more car payments but if mine starts leaking will probably trade it for a Prius, the Sonata Hybrid is nice too but it uses a six speed transmission, annoying.  I don't think resale value on C-MAX is that high considering when I bought mine used the purchase price was low to start with and unfortunately car has a bad reputation.  It's a shame because up until now I've literally put no major repairs into this car, just oil changes and a new battery, topped off the coolant once.  Otherwise very reliable with the latest software updates.  Never had a problem with parasitic 12V drain. 

 

I've heard a rumor that new Prius is not built as robust as Gen 2 but we'll see.  As far as I know Ford is still just selling Escapes and F-150s so nothing in the line up really appeals to me.. Gas here in PA is higher than in surrounding states because they have lots of bridge repairs to make and public transit to subsidize.  Plus, hybrids are nice for other reasons besides gas economy.


Edited by jestevens, 13 March 2019 - 07:00 AM.


#37 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 11:36 AM

ICE/Trans
I believe ICE/Trans come out from bottom of ICE compartment as you can see from this picture.
 
Paul


#38 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 03:14 PM

After looking at the manual "carefully", Paul is correct.  Who said a picture is worth a 1000 words? :)   I looked at the last 1/2 dozen pics in the procedure showing a crane lowering the engine / transmission with the last few pics showing the transmission being removed from the engine.  The crane was shown in prior pics being raised when the engine / transmission was on the lift table shown in Paul's pic.  Other parts were then removed before the last pics.  


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#39 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 07:20 PM

I have a good hoist but no car lift!  And really, I have too many projects now.  I wiped it off today, drove out the driveway and back and it certainly looks like its leaking on the engine side of bell housing.  Starting to think that the only real fix-it option is a new one at $7150 with 3 year warranty.  Hate to ditch a car we still really like.  Still undecided - plenty of almost new 2018s out there for about $15k - or used Tesla Model S cars for $30k.  There are more Superchargers now - very convenient to our travel routes - free fuel - and who knows, 70k miles of additional depreciation offset with fuel savings might be no more than $7150!  A dangerous line of thinking for SnowStorm.



#40 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:48 AM

Yes, it doesn't sound like a fun procedure, like a lot of new cars they drop the body around/over the drivetrain - easy to do in factory but hard to service in a regular garage.  If they can cover via warranty that is great - otherwise ..








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