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Energi mpg vs Hybrid mpg


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30 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   RMS13

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 05:43 PM

Why is the Energi model rated 2 mpg lower in the gas mode than the Hybrid model. I can't believe the extra 270 pounds of battery would make that much difference.









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#2 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 06:34 PM

Ford's Road Load Horsepower coefficients (generally based on coast down data) result in dynamometer settings that will yield lower EPA FE for the Energi than the Hybrid after running the various EPA test cycles.  Like you say the only difference between the two models is weight.  The graph below shows the RLHP for several cars.

 

gallery_167_32_44129.png    


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#3 OFFLINE   RMS13

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 07:27 PM

Thanks for the graph. But what is the difference between the two cars? Is there something in the drive train that is different? I am thinking about getting a CMax energi for my 50 mile commute on the interstate but what to understand why I may get less mpg than in my CMax Hybrid. I am now thing about getting a Focus instead of the Energi since the highway mpg is the same and the initial cost for the Focus will be $7000 less.



#4 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 09:00 PM

I forgot the Energi's final drive ratio is numerically higher than the Hybrid.  IIRC the Hybrid is 2.57:1 and the Energi is 2.91.  :)

 

It's hard to make up $7k in fuel savings between an Energi and Focus.  I couldn't justify an Energi over my Hybrid when I purchased my Hybrid in Dec. 2012 for a $2.3k difference even charging once a day every day on about 15k miles a year.  Simple payback was over 10 years.


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 29 July 2015 - 09:29 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   Taz

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Posted 29 July 2015 - 11:43 PM

I have a slightly different take but my situation is bit different. I am dealing with terrible traffic every day in LA. By running in EV mode for pretty much my entire commute, I am saving up to a gallon of gas a day. Current gas prices are between $4 - $4.20 a gallon. If I drive WAY out of my way, I might be able to get it in the high $3/gal range.

 

As a result I am saving about $1200/a year by using pure EV when I can. An example of my commute the other day was about 17 miles covered in 1 hour 20 minutes. I have also found places were I can charge for free which can extend my EV range to about 60 miles or more a day. Since the ICE doesn't run as often oil changes are reduced saving a bit more money. I am consistently getting about 30 miles on EV alone when commuting. The key is keeping it under 40 mph when in EV mode.

 

Another consideration is my ECO footprint is a bit lighter. When I factor in that I bought my NRG used, and it was about the same price as the non-NRG model, it was a no-brainer for me. I gave up some trunk space and I have a lot more flexibility. I had to do my commute a few times in hybrid mode and found that not going anywhere for long enough, the ICE has to kick on and ultimately my FE starts to dive. If I can at least roll a bit more than stopping, the hybrid isn't too bad. One particularly bad stretch, I calculated I was getting about 20mpg in hybrid mode.

 

OTOH had if I have to pay to recharge at some of the more expensive charging stations, I just use the ICE as it can be cheaper to run than using electrons from the high priced EVSEs. At the more expensive stations it can work out to I am paying about $6/gal for the equivalent range on electrons. Now that I know exactly what I can do with ICE or EV, I use what is best at the time.


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#6 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 07:44 AM

50 miles one-way? In this case there is a big aerodynamic penalty for going with either C-Max compared to the smaller (lower) Focus or a sedan (Fusion). Have you looked at a diesel car? Diesels generally exceed their EPA rating on freeway trips. A diesel may be your most cost effective option.

 

Are you driving across any large hills on your commute? Mountains would favor the Energi since it can recapture a lot more energy on downhill stretches.


Edited by hybridbear, 30 July 2015 - 07:45 AM.


#7 OFFLINE   scottwood2

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 09:01 AM

I forgot the Energi's final drive ratio is numerically higher than the Hybrid.  IIRC the Hybrid is 2.57:1 and the Energi is 2.91.  :)

 

It's hard to make up $7k in fuel savings between an Energi and Focus.  I couldn't justify an Energi over my Hybrid when I purchased my Hybrid in Dec. 2012 for a $2.3k difference even charging once a day every day on about 15k miles a year.  Simple payback was over 10 years.

Second that thought here.

 

I also don't think comparing a Focus to the C-Max is a fair comparison.   To me the C-Max is more of a crossover design.  I love the extra height.  The C-Max is a great city car.  I drive 10 miles in the city to work and I can get 60 to 70 MPG in warmer weather.   Highway is still better than many cars but I get 47, maybe up 52 MPG on the highway. 



#8 OFFLINE   Adrian_L

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:13 PM

50 miles one-way? In this case there is a big aerodynamic penalty for going with either C-Max compared to the smaller (lower) Focus or a sedan (Fusion). Have you looked at a diesel car? Diesels generally exceed their EPA rating on freeway trips. A diesel may be your most cost effective option.

 

Are you driving across any large hills on your commute? Mountains would favor the Energi since it can recapture a lot more energy on downhill stretches.

 

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 



#9 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:25 PM

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 

Adrian,

I think you are mixing up the posts. The OP has a 50 mile commute on the Interstate. One of the responses was in LA with a 1.5 hour commute.

 

I also second the motion for a Diesel - the Golf TDI will likely get 50 MPG at high speed on the Interstate.


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#10 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 12:32 PM

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 

For someone with a 1.33 hour commute for 17 miles the Energi is ideal. For someone with a 50 mile & 50 minute commute on the freeway then a diesel may be better. As Steve said, the OP has a freeway commute.



#11 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 01:20 PM

For someone with a 1.33 hour commute for 17 miles the Energi is ideal. For someone with a 50 mile & 50 minute commute on the freeway then a diesel may be better. As Steve said, the OP has a freeway commute.

+1

 

Hard to beat a diesel at highway speeds

 

Hard to beat a hybrid electric around town.

 

Frank



#12 OFFLINE   Adrian_L

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 01:41 PM

Ahhhhhh.  I'm the one not reading carefully enough.  My aplogies-----

 

As stated by Steve et al:  A diesel would be the "appliance of choice" for those with a 50 mile interstate commute, not a hybrid.  


Edited by Adrian_L, 30 July 2015 - 01:42 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   Taz

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 04:13 PM

What I would love to see is a diesel/electric hybrid stuffed in a very aerodynamic body like a Prius or Tesla. Then you could have the best of both worlds.

 

As far as pure diesel, I have a TDI that I love. Sadly where it is at, diesel costs enough more that it offsets it superior highway fuel economy for the most part. Best TDI I had would get over 65 mpg at a steady cruise of 70 or so. It was the first gen Passat in the US with a diesel. We could easily go 800 miles on a tank without even trying.



#14 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:38 PM

What I would love to see is a diesel/electric hybrid stuffed in a very aerodynamic body like a Prius or Tesla. Then you could have the best of both worlds.

 

As far as pure diesel, I have a TDI that I love. Sadly where it is at, diesel costs enough more that it offsets it superior highway fuel economy for the most part. Best TDI I had would get over 65 mpg at a steady cruise of 70 or so. It was the first gen Passat in the US with a diesel. We could easily go 800 miles on a tank without even trying.

Here in CA diesel is over a buck cheaper.

 

I don't know why no one has gone for diesel hybrid, except maybe that the engine costs more, and a hybrid already has extra costs tacked on due to the battery. Might not look good for MSRP. And of course the diesel engine is heavier, which is the enemy of fuel economy.



#15 OFFLINE   Taz

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:00 PM

In CA, diesel makes a lot of sense. Even though it is cheaper than gas there, it is still more expensive than what most states charge for gas. I am out of LA for the weekend and diesel is 30 cents a gallon more than gas here in a lot of places. Gas is $2.39 a gallon. When I left LA this morning it was at $3.99 on the way to the airport for gas.

 

While weight is the enemy, on the highway it is less of an issue. So a diesel electric hybrid might be able to get by with a small battery pack and thereby save some weight. I think they might not do it because diesels are harder to control the noise than gas motors. Some people don't like the smell either.

 

Put a diesel motor in a very aerodynamic platform like the Prius and you could like see 70mpg at cruise on the highway pretty easily. Sadly most of the diesel cars on the road where built with aerodynamics at the forefront of the design process.Factor ho how long the motors last and it could be pretty interesting. My current diesel is close to 200k and running great. My highest mileage diesel was 437k and was still running quite well when someone stole it. Only issues engine/drivetrain related were original turbo went at 190k and the differential went at 270k. Mercedes definitely knew what they were doing when they built their diesels.



#16 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:52 PM

Here in CA diesel is over a buck cheaper.

 

I don't know why no one has gone for diesel hybrid, except maybe that the engine costs more, and a hybrid already has extra costs tacked on due to the battery. Might not look good for MSRP. And of course the diesel engine is heavier, which is the enemy of fuel economy.

 

Yes, the price is a major issue. Diesels already cost more than their gasoline counterparts, by about the same amount more as the extra cost of a hybrid. So a diesel hybrid would likely be another $1,000 - 5,000 more than an equivalent gas hybrid. 



#17 OFFLINE   SPL Tech

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 04:12 AM


 

I also second the motion for a Diesel - the Golf TDI will likely get 50 MPG at high speed on the Interstate.

More like 45, I owned one for 50,000 miles. Also, like most consumers, you're missing some major points here. Do you want a vehicle that is fuel efficient, or money efficient, because they are not always one in the same. Even if the Diesel gets better MPG on the highway (which is only barely does) diesel costs more, in some areas (although less in others), but more importantly, the maintenance cost on VW diesels is absolutely astronomical. You need to use a very specialized type of oil that is not available at Wal-Mart, and it runs about $70 if you change it on your own or $150 at the dealer. You also need to change the fuel filter every $20k miles, which is more complicated than on a gasoline car, and that runs about $120 - 200 at the dealer. Then you need to change the brake fluid after three years and every two thereafter, which is about $300 at the dealer. The tranny flush every 50k? About $400 at the dealer. If you do all the maintenance required for the 60,000 mile change interval, it's about $1200 at the dealer. The 120,000 mile interval is about $2,000 at the dealer. Again, this is just for maintenance, then just wait until something breaks and you need to order those expensive euro Audi parts!

 

 

So when all things are considered, operating cost for a VW diesel is many times higher than a hybrid car.


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#18 OFFLINE   SPL Tech

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 04:15 AM

aEPA).

Edited by SPL Tech, 29 August 2015 - 04:17 AM.


#19 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 07:52 PM

I had a 2003 VW Jetta Wagon TDI, I liked the car(47mpg), but hated taking it to the Dealer, felt like I was getting ripped off every time. I finally couldn't take it anymore and sold it for good money and bought a New 2007 FORD Focus 5sp. 4DR Hatchback (42mpg w/mods) and only $30 for an oil change, what a big difference! :yahoo:

 

Paul


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#20 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 04:26 PM

More like 45, I owned one for 50,000 miles. Also, like most consumers, you're missing some major points here. Do you want a vehicle that is fuel efficient, or money efficient, because they are not always one in the same. Even if the Diesel gets better MPG on the highway (which is only barely does) diesel costs more, in some areas (although less in others), but more importantly, the maintenance cost on VW diesels is absolutely astronomical. You need to use a very specialized type of oil that is not available at Wal-Mart, and it runs about $70 if you change it on your own or $150 at the dealer. You also need to change the fuel filter every $20k miles, which is more complicated than on a gasoline car, and that runs about $120 - 200 at the dealer. Then you need to change the brake fluid after three years and every two thereafter, which is about $300 at the dealer. The tranny flush every 50k? About $400 at the dealer. If you do all the maintenance required for the 60,000 mile change interval, it's about $1200 at the dealer. The 120,000 mile interval is about $2,000 at the dealer. Again, this is just for maintenance, then just wait until something breaks and you need to order those expensive euro Audi parts!

 

 

So when all things are considered, operating cost for a VW diesel is many times higher than a hybrid car.

Is this for a recent model VW TDI?

 

FWIW, diesel is 1 buck cheaper here in LA.








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