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Rotors and Pads crap at 24K


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28 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   homestead

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 07:02 PM

At 122k miles my brakes look great! :)

 

Paul

 

Yeah, with your lifetime brake score they should look great!

I wonder what the scores are for those have worn out brakes.









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#22 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:44 PM

That is a good question. Unfortunately that only works for 2013 CMAXs

Paul

#23 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)



#24 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:43 PM

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

I'm pretty sure you are going to get a terrible brake score if you use friction brakes, I know I have. OUCH! I think it only counts complete stops. I'm not sure if friction braking takes over when you start charging HVB faster than it can charge.

 

Paul



#25 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:07 AM

From the Workshop Manual:

Brake Modes
Because much of the brake torque required to stop the vehicle can be achieved through regenerative braking, it is not always necessary for the conventional friction brakes to be applied. The brake pedal uses a pedal feel simulator that acts against a curved bracket to give the driver a simulated pedal resistance as the brake pedal is applied. The ABS module uses the driver input on the brake pedal, wheel speed sensor input and the lateral deceleration messages from the RCM to determine the amount of deceleration the driver is requesting and which brake mode is necessary.

Regenerative Braking Mode
The ABS module determines the amount of braking torque necessary and sends that info to the PCM along with the current threshold for ABS intervention. The PCM determines how much braking torque the electric motor can provide based on High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) state-of-charge and sends this information back to the ABS module. At the same time, the electric motor is switched to a generator which supplies the determined amount of braking torque. Based on the amount of braking torque the PCM can deliver, the ABS module determines whether it is necessary to apply the friction brakes or if the brake torque from the electric motor is sufficient to safely stop the vehicle.

Friction Braking Mode
Under some circumstances, the brake torque generated by the electric motor is insufficient to bring the vehicle to a safe, controlled stop and requires the assistance of the conventional friction brakes. Additionally, the state-of-charge in the High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) may not allow for regenerative braking to take place or the vehicle may be experiencing an ABS , stability control event.

In these instances, the ABS module activates a mechanical relay which supplies power to a solid state relay that activates a vacuum pump. At the same time, the ABS module sends a PWM voltage to a solenoid mounted on the brake booster. The solenoid allows vacuum from the vacuum pump to enter the brake booster which moves the booster push rod and applies the conventional brakes.

During certain braking events, the friction brakes can be applied directly by the driver. The brake booster push rod is equipped with an adjustable stop, once the brake pedal travels far enough to engage the stop, the brake booster push rod is forced into the master cylinder and the conventional friction brakes are applied.

Supplemental Braking Assist
In addition to preventing wheel lock up during braking events, the ABS module also provides supplemental hydraulic brake assist through the use of the hydraulic pump motor and the HCU . The ABS module continually monitors the vacuum in the brake booster through the use of a vacuum sensor. When the vacuum sensor indicates vacuum is below a predetermined level during a braking event or if the driver attempts to stop the vehicle with a low vacuum condition in the brake booster, the ABS module activates the hydraulic pump motor in the HCU to assist with vehicle braking.

Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD)
On initial application of the brake pedal, full pressure is applied to the rear brakes. The ABS module then uses wheel speed sensor inputs to evaluate rear wheel slip. Once the rear wheel slip exceeds a predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to close the appropriate isolation valves to hold the rear brake pressure constant while allowing the front brake pressure to build. This creates a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels. If the rear wheel slip continues and exceeds a second predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to open the dump valves to decrease the rear brake pressure and allow the rear wheels to recover. A slight bump sensation may be felt in the brake pedal when EBD is active.

If the ABS is disabled due to a DTC being present in the ABS module, EBD continues to function unless the DTC is for wheel speed sensors or the HCU . When EBD is disabled, the ABS warning indicator, the red brake warning indicator and sliding car icon illuminate.

 

From another section about the IPC:

Brake Coach Gauge

The brake coach gauge is a virtual gauge that appears after the vehicle has come to a complete stop. It coaches the driver to brake in a manner which maximizes the amount of energy returned through the regenerative braking system. The percent displayed is an indication of the regenerative braking efficiency with 100% representing the maximum amount of energy recovery. The brake coach gauge can be enabled or disabled through the message center settings.

The IPC uses 3 messaged inputs to display the brake coach gauge. The first is the regenerative braking status, the second is the request to display the braking event feedback and the third is the amount of energy recaptured. The IPC receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the PCM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

 

Energy Coach Message Center Display

The IPC provides a message center display to provide energy coaching information to the driver related to the specific driving performance of vehicle acceleration, braking, and vehicle cruising speed. The display uses 2 unique color appearances to indicate good performance or of improvement potential. Blue indicates good and orange indicates areas for improvement.

The IPC receives the energy coaching data from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the energy coaching data from the SOBDMC over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

I'm pretty sure you are going to get a terrible brake score if you use friction brakes, I know I have. OUCH! I think it only counts complete stops. I'm not sure if friction braking takes over when you start charging HVB faster than it can charge.

Anytime you brake, the data is counted for the Trip Summary Brake Score. The Brake Score that appears on the dash is as described above, it's only for braking events where you come to a complete stop. You can do an experiment to understand. Turn your car on & accelerate. Now brake hard, but don't come to a complete stop. Now accelerate again & brake gently so that you get a 100% Brake Score showing when you stop. Now turn off your car & check out your Trip Summary Brake Score. It will not be 100%. I've had many trips where every time I come to a complete stop I see 100% Brake Score, but at the end of the trip my Trip Summary Brake Score is 99%. This means that somewhere I braked hard enough to engage the friction brakes early, but it wasn't a complete stop so I didn't see the percentage displayed.

 

It's also been previously discussed that all 100% Brake Scores are not created equally. 100% just means you got the most energy possible based on how your braked. But, larryh has shown with his experiments that braking efficiency varies based on motor RPM (dependent on wheel speed) and motor power (how many kW are being generated). 100% just means you didn't engage the friction brakes any more than absolutely necessary.

 

The car will also engage the friction brakes instead of regen if you're braking & turning at the same time. When you're turning & the wheel speed varies, the car needs to brake each wheel with different amounts of force. Since regen braking occurs at the axle, it can't put differing levels of torque on each wheel.


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#26 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:33 AM

Very interesting and thanks, hybridbear, for the info.  So the car is pretty much "brake by wire" unless you hit it really hard.  At least that explains why, in my opinion, the transition from regen to friction is so smooth.  I'll have to try the trip summary test.  From all you've said it sounds like the lifetime braking score may indeed include all braking activity, not just complete stops(?).



#27 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 10:36 AM

Somewhere I read that regen stops at less than 5 mph. :)

 

Paul



#28 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:04 AM

From all you've said it sounds like the lifetime braking score may indeed include all braking activity, not just complete stops(?).

Correct, all braking activity. But, I don't think coasting without touching any pedal is counted.


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#29 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:37 AM

Correct, all braking activity. But, I don't think coasting without touching any pedal is counted.

I think you are right because SOC goes down when coasting. ;)

 

Paul








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