Jump to content

Custom Search




Welcome to the C-MAX Hybrid Forum


Sign In  Log in with Facebook

Create Account
Welcome to the C-MAX Hybrid Forum. You must register to create topics or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Here's some member benefits:
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members
  • Create photo albums and post images. . .more!
Click here to create an account now
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Hybrid Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


Photo

How to Get 80 -100 MPG From The CMAX HYBRID

MPG Hybrid CMAX

  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:03 AM

I have about reached the limit for AERO and Temperature Efficiency Improvements like Grill Covers and Wheel Covers for my CMAX.  With temps in the 80's*F I can average 50-54mpg at 65-70mph with no A/C on the HWY.   Not bad, but I'm still looking to improve more.  I remembered someone had said the ICE is very inefficient so I looked it up and to my surprise it is only 25-30% at best. WOW :drop: So looking at GOV site and Wikipedia 

 

http://www.fuelecono...v/feg/atv.shtml

https://en.wikipedia...gine_efficiency

From Wikipedia:

"Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of about 25% to 30% when used to power a car. In other words, even when the engine is operating at its point of maximum thermal efficiency, of the total heat energy released by the gasoline consumed, about 70-75% is rejected as heat without being turned into useful work, i.e. turning the crankshaft.[1] Approximately half of this rejected heat is carried away by the exhaust gases, and half passes through the cylinder walls or cylinder head into the engine cooling system, and is passed to the atmosphere via the cooling system radiator.[2] Some of the work generated is also lost as friction, noise, air turbulence, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and the electrical generator, leaving only about 25-30% of the energy released by the fuel consumed available to move the vehicle.

In the past 3–4 years, GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) increased the efficiency of the engines equipped with this fueling system up to 35%. Currently, the technology is available in a wide variety of vehicles ranging from less expensive cars produced by Mazda, Ford and Chevrolet to more expensive cars produced by BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen Auto Group."

 

As you can see about 30% of the energy is absorbed by the cooling system from piston, cylinder walls and cylinder head and another 30% goes out the tale pipe. ;)

 

:headscratch: This got me to thinking about using a material that has very low Thermal Conductivity and as it turns out I help to develop STAR21G, a 

ICE Material

black material  with Thermal Conductivity of: 1.25 W/(m K) at 25*C, 160 times lower than Aluminum,34 times lower than Steel. 

Aluminum:                                                        205 W/m K) at 25*C

steel:                                                                  43 W/m K) at 25*C

 

Here are the advantages that I can think of.:

 

1. Potential  MPG improvement of two times.

2. Almost instantaneous operating temp, no energy being absorbed by combustion parts and lower pollution.

3. Eliminate the need for a cooling system there by saving the cost for having one, may need oil cooling.

4. Cut pollution in half  by using half as much gas for each mile.

5. ICE cars will be cheaper to own and operate then All-electric Cars and create similar amount of air pollution assuming  they use coal fired power to charge battery. 

6. Hybrids could improve MPG's more if we can use exhaust gases to run a steam engine generator to charge HVB from using exhaust gases.  

7. Would increase HP and Torque by a factor of two for the same ICE design. 

8. There maybe more advantages and I will add when I or someone else comes up with them.

 

I'm thinking 100 mpg/ 1400mi. on a tank with a CMAX Hybrid on the HWY for 2018. :shift:  (Maybe 2K miles with Hypermiling) :yahoo:

 

This isn't a cost effective solution for current CMAX/ICE vehicles, but for Future Hybrid/ICE vehicles this could be a huge improvement in MPG/HP/ Torque and cheaper to make. IMO anyway.  I might try to add this to my ICE now that I'm out of warranty if I get the opportunity. (133K mi) :)

 

It would be interesting if I could get someone at FORD interested in my idea otherwise I'm going to put this information out to the Public Outlets and see what happens. I have applied for a patent too.  

 

Let me know what you think. :)

 

Paul 

 

 


  • C-MaxSea likes this







Lose this advertisement by becoming a member. Click here to create a free account.


#2 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 05 June 2016 - 11:05 AM

As an engineer myself, I can tell you that the great minds at BMW have already researched and prototyped about all that can be done with waste heat recovery in a gasoline engine.

http://www.motorauth...very-technology

.... and the gains are somewhat modest there.

 

I'd like to see what more can be done with thermoelectric generators though (electricity from heat).



#3 OFFLINE   C-MaxSea

C-MaxSea

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 965 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationSeattle, WA USA
  • My C-MAX's Year:Decline
  • My C-MAX's Color:Sterling Gray
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max SEL, 303A, Pano Sunroof, Born Aug 2012

Posted 05 June 2016 - 11:47 AM

"Fly me to the Moon and let me play among the Stars ..............."   Sounds great Paul, go for it !

 

Stargazin?

 

Nick

 

(((Is that an oversized hockey puck ? )))



#4 OFFLINE   raadsel

raadsel

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 503 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationHouston, TX
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ice Storm
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max SEL

Posted 05 June 2016 - 12:07 PM

I know Hyundai is touting their new Ioniq will have a thermal efficiency of 40%, and the Kia Nero will have the same engine. I know Hyundai/Kia are using an Atkinsonized version of their GDI engines, which is part of how they get the thermal efficiency.



#5 OFFLINE   jdbob

jdbob

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 258 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationJohn Day, Oregon
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ice Storm
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max Energi

Posted 05 June 2016 - 01:54 PM

4th generation Prius (went on sale late last year):

 

"The next Prius features improved batteries with higher energy density; smaller electric motors, with higher power density than the previous Prius motors; and the gasoline engine features a thermal efficiency greater than 40% (third-generation Prius is 38.5%)."



#6 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 05 June 2016 - 03:52 PM

Higher Compression Ratios are the main key to higher efficiency.  Our C-Max has 12.3:1, which is quite high.  Mazda's Skyactiv engines in the U.S. have been running at 13:1 recently, and they are expected to break into 16:1 in a few years if they can perfect it.  (Other cars on the road typically run 10:1 or 11:1.)

 

Some other ways to get higher MPG (hypermiler fans only please!):

 

1.  Fit flexible plastic aero skirts to the lower front and maybe sides.  They'll scrape a little, but if they are tough, they'll hang in there.   Maybe others, but there is allfitautomotive.com to extend our existing skirts, or just use 3M tape on a strip of vinyl, etc.

 

2.  Use Mazda 0w-20 high-moly (friction reducer) motor oil, and optionally add 1/2 cup SeaFoam (or Gumout MultiSystem, or STP MultiPurpose (you know, a thin one only)) to the oil to thin it just a tad; not too much.

Mazda is serious about increasing MPG, and has (at dealerships, amazon, Ebay) an excellent motor oil, full synthetic, which fights internal engine friction to an extra extent.  Their moly levels are around 6 times what other 0w-20 motor oils use!  It's factory fill in new Mazdas too, and they run their EPA MPG certifications with it.  

 

3.  Switch tires to the narrower 215/55-17 size, and run them at 42 psi, to reduce aero drag.

 

All the above should allow 0.5 MPG city gained, and 2 MPG highway gained.

 

ptjones has done some things I wouldn't do, although real hypermilers are serious, and it's their car after all.  As in, grill blocks could create underhood hot spots, though the risk is likely low.


Edited by MaxHeadroom, 05 June 2016 - 03:53 PM.


#7 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 05 June 2016 - 04:42 PM

4th generation Prius (went on sale late last year):

 

"The next Prius features improved batteries with higher energy density; smaller electric motors, with higher power density than the previous Prius motors; and the gasoline engine features a thermal efficiency greater than 40% (third-generation Prius is 38.5%)."

 

4th generation Prius (went on sale late last year):

 

"The next Prius features improved batteries with higher energy density; smaller electric motors, with higher power density than the previous Prius motors; and the gasoline engine features a thermal efficiency greater than 40% (third-generation Prius is 38.5%)."

Going with low thermal conducting material I'm hoping for 50+% efficiency and maybe able to use these other technologies too.

 

 

Higher Compression Ratios are the main key to higher efficiency.  Our C-Max has 12.3:1, which is quite high.  Mazda's Skyactiv engines in the U.S. have been running at 13:1 recently, and they are expected to break into 16:1 in a few years if they can perfect it.  (Other cars on the road typically run 10:1 or 11:1.)

 

Some other ways to get higher MPG (hypermiler fans only please!):

 

1.  Fit flexible plastic aero skirts to the lower front and maybe sides.  They'll scrape a little, but if they are tough, they'll hang in there.   Maybe others, but there is allfitautomotive.com to extend our existing skirts, or just use 3M tape on a strip of vinyl, etc.

 

2.  Use Mazda 0w-20 high-moly (friction reducer) motor oil, and optionally add 1/2 cup SeaFoam (or Gumout MultiSystem, or STP MultiPurpose (you know, a thin one only)) to the oil to thin it just a tad; not too much.

Mazda is serious about increasing MPG, and has (at dealerships, amazon, Ebay) an excellent motor oil, full synthetic, which fights internal engine friction to an extra extent.  Their moly levels are around 6 times what other 0w-20 motor oils use!  It's factory fill in new Mazdas too, and they run their EPA MPG certifications with it.  

 

3.  Switch tires to the narrower 215/55-17 size, and run them at 42 psi, to reduce aero drag.

 

All the above should allow 0.5 MPG city gained, and 2 MPG highway gained.

 

ptjones has done some things I wouldn't do, although real hypermilers are serious, and it's their car after all.  As in, grill blocks could create underhood hot spots, though the risk is likely low.

I looked at trying 215/55-17, it looked like they were just to big to fit without rubbing.  Has anyone actually installed them?

BTW under hood air comes from top grill which isn't covered during the warm time of the year and shutters are closed until at least 210*F WT which means their only open on the FWY after atleast 20 miles. Not that much air going through ICE compartment other than from top grill.

Also it was my understanding that with  Atkinson valve timing the effective compression ratio is lower, the lower end torque isn't great and the ICE gets boost from motors to make up for it. 

My total improvements are around 7 mpg. :) 

 

Paul

 

 

"Fly me to the Moon and let me play among the Stars ..............."   Sounds great Paul, go for it !

 

Stargazin?

 

Nick

 

(((Is that an oversized hockey puck ? )))

No, just polishing, maybe if I get some extra time I'll look through one. :)

 

Paul



#8 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 05 June 2016 - 05:17 PM

I looked at trying 215/55-17, it looked like they were just to big to fit without rubbing.  Has anyone actually installed them?..............
Also it was my understanding that with  Atkinson valve timing the effective compression ratio is lower, the lower end torque isn't great and the ICE gets boost from motors to make up for it. 
My total improvements are around 7 mpg. :) 

I put on 215/55-17 snow tires, no problem, in fact I think they "fit" better than 225/50-17 OEMs.
Remember variable valve timing can kick our engine into and out of Atkinson (late intake valve closing) at will, although its true efficiency does elevate when Atkinson vs. the usual Otto cycle. Power is down when in Atkinson, but efficiency is higher.

#9 OFFLINE   homestead

homestead

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 382 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • LocationPacific Northwest
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Hybrid SEL

Posted 05 June 2016 - 05:52 PM

Paul

Try injecting some hydrogen into your air intake on the ICE to improve your mpg's.

Diesel truckers are doing this,  This place and others are selling them to generate

hydrogen on the fly.

http://hydrogengarage.com/

No I am not doing this.  My car is stock.



#10 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 06 June 2016 - 08:38 AM

Paul
Try injecting some hydrogen into your air intake on the ICE to improve your mpg's.
Diesel truckers are doing this,  This place and others are selling them to generate
hydrogen on the fly.
http://hydrogengarage.com/
No I am not doing this.  My car is stock.

No. Just, no. With laughter.

#11 OFFLINE   homestead

homestead

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 382 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • LocationPacific Northwest
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Hybrid SEL

Posted 06 June 2016 - 07:11 PM

No. Just, no. With laughter.

 

Well I was laughing too when I posted it but Paul wants more mpg's.

This guy put a hydrogen generator in his prius to boost mpg's, watch the video.

http://peswiki.com/i...ctrolyzer_Plans

Its not that dangerous if you use the hydrogen as you generate it.

It helps boost the combustion so you end up using less gas.



#12 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 07 June 2016 - 01:26 PM

I have seen this before long time ago and it didn't seem very practicable and I wasn't convinced about the efficiency of it.  Diesel has extra oxygen, gas ICE not so much.

Another interesting note is this black material might be able to be able to laser 3D print the parts for the ICE. :) Make constructing the parts easier.

 

Paul 


Edited by ptjones, 12 June 2016 - 02:45 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 07 June 2016 - 02:26 PM

Well I was laughing too when I posted it but Paul wants more mpg's.

This guy put a hydrogen generator in his prius to boost mpg's, watch the video.

http://peswiki.com/i...ctrolyzer_Plans

Its not that dangerous if you use the hydrogen as you generate it.

It helps boost the combustion so you end up using less gas.

Actually it may not be as bad as one might think.  It's almost similar to "Hythane", a blend of methane (natural gas) and hydrogen to burn in a natural gas engine for cleaner emissions (less CO, NOx, and CO2 in the exhaust).  Saw a presentation of it in the Colorado company's small building a few years ago. 

They also have a diesel fuel system to mix in methane as you drive, but I don't know why hydrogen wouldn't work, unless they simply think methane is easy to get while hydrogen is a pain to get.  

If interested, see http://edeninnovations.com/  and http://www.edenenerg...resentation.pdf

 

ptjones, your insulation system is a little scary, since I'd be concerned about melting something.   When BMW tried it, they had some slick "heat-limiting" techniques to keep the running temperature limited to probably 250 deg F or so on the underhood parts we care about.  http://www.motorauth...very-technology  

The concept is sound, insulate the engine to keep it and the oil warm when not running.


  • C-MaxSea likes this

#14 OFFLINE   Automate

Automate

    New Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 28 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • LocationUnited States
  • My C-MAX's Year:Decline
  • My C-MAX's Color:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:FFH

Posted 07 June 2016 - 05:16 PM

Approximately half of this rejected heat is carried away by the exhaust gases

Most people don't think of Formula 1 engines as being efficient or being in any ways similar to our hybrids but this is not true.  Besides being a hybrid, F1 engines can use electricity to reduce turbo lag by helping the turbo get up to speed quicker but they can also use the turbo to generate electricity by extracting power from the exhaust when full power is not needed.

 

A very good video explaining how it works here

 

It's only a matter of time before this trickles now to production cars.


  • C-MaxSea likes this

#15 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 07 June 2016 - 05:16 PM

MaxHeadroom, you need to get a ScanGaugeII so you can see what the temps are, they are alot colder than you think.  Today it was 88*F at 1PM and driving 14 miles with the car already heated up I was seeing only 96*F for Intake Air temp and 220*F WT with Middle and Lower Grill Covers on. BTW the MyView Temp Gauge doesn't go above the middle until getting above 226*F WT. The top of the white bar is 246*F WT. :)

 

The ICE compartment would be very cool, because all the heat would be going out the tail pipe not the engine block.

 

I'm not an expert on recapturing energy from exhaust gases Yet. :)

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 07 June 2016 - 05:24 PM.

  • C-MaxSea likes this

#16 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 12 June 2016 - 02:05 PM

I thought I might clarify how a ICE (internal combustion engine) would work using STAR21G, black material.  This is the way our 4 cycle  engine works :Image3.gif

 

Induction Cycle pulls in cool air from intake through cylinder head into combustion chamber cooling cylinder head, cylinder walls, piston and valves.

Compression Cycle the air in the combustion chamber compresses further cooling it until the piston gets close to the top where it gets hot and fuel is injected into combustion chamber. 

Power Cycle fuel is burned and is slightly absorbed into combustion chamber.

Exhaust Cycle hot gases are pushed out of combustion chamber with a little more heat absorbed into surfaces of combustion chamber.

 

As you can see about half of the time the combustion chamber is being heated up and the other half it is cooling down. Because the ICE absorbs very little heat it shouldn't be that hot on the outside of the ICE.  This is also why you will double your MPG's, because 30% of the total energy lost to cooling system won't be lost now.  Or 60% of the energy will be moving the car and 30 % will be going out of the exhaust pipe. :)

 

Paul



#17 OFFLINE   fbov

fbov

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 1,303 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationRochester, NY
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ice Storm
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Hybrid

Posted 13 June 2016 - 11:07 AM

... the ICE absorbs very little heat ...

Paul,

This is correct, the ICE does absorb very little heat. Most of the energy loss is in the exhaust gas itself, thus the Atkinson cycle and turbocharger approaches provide real improvement. 

 

But, since little heat is going into the ICE, there's little savings to be had insulating the engine block. Wouldn't it be nice if the exhaust gas heat could be used to heat the cabin? An air-air heat exchanger would have much less thermal mass than the ICE. 

 

HAve fun,

Frank



#18 OFFLINE   MaxHeadroom

MaxHeadroom

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 77 posts
  • Region:U.S. Mountain
  • LocationFt. Collins
  • My C-MAX's Year:2015
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ruby Red
  • Current Vehicle:2015 Ford CMax

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:20 PM

To begin understanding how an engine works, it's good to first study basic thermodyamics (pressure, volume, heat, flow, entropy, etc.).

Back in ME school, we used an ancient thing called a "book", although now it's all on the internet for the taking: .https://en.wikibooks...cs/Applications



#19 OFFLINE   livesmith

livesmith

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Member
  • 78 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationWestern NY
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Sterling Gray
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max Energi with Pano Roof

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:15 AM

But, since little heat is going into the ICE, there's little savings to be had insulating the engine block. Wouldn't it be nice if the exhaust gas heat could be used to heat the cabin? An air-air heat exchanger would have much less thermal mass than the ICE. 

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Like the 3rd Gen Prius has?



#20 ONLINE   ptjones

ptjones

    C-Max Hybrid Member

  • C-MAX Hybrid Platinum Member
  • 3,044 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationNewnan, GA
  • My C-MAX's Year:2013
  • My C-MAX's Color:Ingot Silver
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-MAX SEL

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:03 AM

Paul,

This is correct, the ICE does absorb very little heat. Most of the energy loss is in the exhaust gas itself, thus the Atkinson cycle and turbocharger approaches provide real improvement. 

 

But, since little heat is going into the ICE, there's little savings to be had insulating the engine block. Wouldn't it be nice if the exhaust gas heat could be used to heat the cabin? An air-air heat exchanger would have much less thermal mass than the ICE. 

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Am I missing something here?  Both Links I posted say only 25-30% energy created from burning gas ends up turning the wheels. Another 30% is absorbed by the engine and the last 30% is heat in exhaust gases going out of the tail pipe.  The point of my Post is my material doesn't absorb heat so you could put half as much air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber and end up with the same amount of heat energy/power.  It is possible that the temperature of gases would be higher to create  the same energy/power with less molecules of gas to work with.  Lubrication of cylinder walls maybe a problem with higher temps.  All these issues have to be researched to come up with viable solutions. 

I do know Corning worked on this idea in the early 90's and stopped for unknown reason. smile.png

 

Paul








Custom Search





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: MPG, Hybrid, CMAX

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Privacy Policy TERMS OF SERVICE ·