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Get you C-MAX Hybrid Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Niro vs. Ioniq vs. C-max - Consumer Reports


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52 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 05:24 PM

Yikes - 3 clutches, 6 gears (or is it 7 with reverse?), 2 belts and 2 motors.  The C-Max has NO clutches, 1 gear (never shifts!), no belts and 2 motors.  All that complexity is another example of why "the ICE Age is ending"!  BEVs are sooooo simple by comparison.

 

Come on Ford, lets have that Model E with the body/doors of the B-Max and at least 1000 lbs of towing.


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#42 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 05:28 PM

Well I went and drove a Hyundai Ioniq last night in poring rain to start the first 7 miles. :sad:  Second I have a real problem with the split hatchback window, it's hard to see traffic behind you, poor design. :sad:  It drove pretty much the same as NIRO with no response off the line.   raadsel, you were right about car coasting down hill in normal mode and charging some in sport mode. You can't drive Ioniq like a CMAX, motor feels about half as powerful  as CMAX motors and there is no EV available power gauge to keep from turning the ICE on. Only once was I able to maintain 65 mph in EV for 200 yds before ICE came on in sport mode. It's very hard to charge the HVB, The CMAX is easy.   A couple of times from a full stop with no traffic behind me I went up to 38mph in EV only, it takes about a minute. :drop:  I think my CMAX can do it in fifteen sec. and go up to 50 mph. before it runs out of HVB.  Hard to get Ioniq charged passed 60% Sport, 50% Normal and the HVB is assisting the ICE a good % of the time so you can't go into EV unless you are going downhill and then you are coasting. :sad:  In heavy rain on the FWY the car got real light so I could only go 45-50 mph, I think it is around 400lbs lighter than CMAX, it had the wider tires and rated 53/54 mpg.  I averaged 45 mpg and 30 mph with 18 miles FWY and 5 mi. city.  I took a couple of pics with MADMAX and Ioniq SEL. I may need to make room in my gallery for them.  The CMAX looks so much bigger I don't understand how the Ioniq can have more room inside. :headscratch:  There is only 2.5" in length, the same in width and 7" lower.  I only was looking at the comparison of Hybrid performance for this test and it's like a Prius with a little bit more power.  I Really like my CMAX. :)

HIFCH2.jpg
HIFCH1.jpg

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 11 August 2017 - 05:47 PM.

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#43 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:20 PM

As far as style of driving goes, maybe I have a bit of a different point of view. While I commend Paul for his significant efforts to maximize fuel economy, I do not find driving to maximize FE as being safe in many scenarios.  For example, I often need to accelerate harder than "2 bars" so I can merge with traffic, I do not want to vary my speed in order to maximize time spent in EV mode because I would be in danger of being rear-ended, etc. I do try to maximize braking regeneration and will drive using FE techniques on occasion when I deem it to be safe. As a result, I am in EV mode about 15% of the time and I am averaging around 41 mpg. I am fine with that, and I am guessing many others are too.

It would be interesting to see your Life Time pic posted,  BTW I don't recommend using my techniques if conditions aren't safe to do.  I have no problem nailing it to get on the FWY if I need too. :shift:  I'm currently at 50.8% EV with 80% FWY on Fuelly. :)  Actually my techniques can be safer than driving "Normal" in stop in go traffic for example.  People will sit on your rear end no matter what you do so  I leave a good gap in front of me so I don't have to slam on my brakes and worry about someone running into my rear end.  :sad: You get better MPG's if you aren't stopping and better to keep even speed. :) With 41 mpg average you are doing better than the average on Fuelly of 39.5mpg. :yahoo:

 

Paul

 

Paul 


Edited by ptjones, 14 August 2017 - 10:48 AM.


#44 OFFLINE   AZgman

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 09:33 PM

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!


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#45 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:47 AM

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!

 

As I recall, at some point Ford took that screen away.



#46 OFFLINE   AZgman

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:04 AM

Ah, that would make it difficult to find then!  ;)



#47 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:44 AM

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!

2016 doesn't have it. :sad:  Just don't reset Trip #2  I see she is getting 29% EV, tell her Good Job! :yahoo:

 

Paul


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#48 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 06:02 AM

I took a look at the EPA FE test data for the 2017 C-Max, Priis, Niro and Ioniq for comparative purposes.  Based on the data, I constructed the following table of "expected" FE for the Priis, Niro, and Ioniq based on the differences between the road load HP coefficients for the vehicle ahieving the highest FE used in the dyno FE testing.  Of course, one can always operate vehicles to achieve more / less FE that expected and the oveall efficiency of the powertrain will affect actual FE.  

 

The interesting observation is that  the Prius and Prius V numbers below are in sync with the Priis EPA ratings. Not so with the Ioniq and Niro. The Priis and C-Max data also appears to be in sync with the average FE being shown in Fuelly.  For example, if you drive the C-Max and get 40 mpg in the C-Max, you might expect to get 48 mpg in the Ioniq, 44 in the Niro and so forth based on the difference between the C-Max and other vehicles RLHP.   Kia does IIRC claim there ICE is 40% efficient.  I don't believe the C-Max or Priis engines are that efficient. Time should tell as people report their FE to Fuelly.

 

 

This data is based on the RLHP curve data attached (sorry I can't upload in gallery as I reached my limit so I have to attach). 

 

 

gallery_167_32_18348.jpg

Attached File  Test data 1.JPG   112.35KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Test data 2.JPG   119.13KB   0 downloads


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 14 August 2017 - 06:13 AM.

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#49 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 11:09 AM

Do you think it is possible for the EPA to use our technique of EV to 15 mph, use ICE to accelerate at 2 bars to cruising speed, then EV to get EPA Gas Mileage #s? I know this technique improves MPG's significantly maybe 4-5 mpg. :headscratch: 

 

Paul 



#50 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 12:50 PM

I think the test cycles are based on how the "normal" driver accelerates, brakes, and so forth.  EPA has made changes to the cycles including adding cycles over time.  If one could show that Hybrid owners drive differently than the non-hybrid owners, perhaps additional cycles could be added just for hybrids.  But IMO, the acceleration at 2 bars is a lot slower than most drive (I even see Prius drivers accelerating quickly). :)

 

It appears that the fuelly data supports the C-Max, Prius, and Prius V EPA fuel economy numbers. Remember a few years ago when the EPA fined Kia $100 million (iirc) for over reporting their FE numbers.  We'll see if consumers can get the Niro and Ioniq FE they claim.  EPA likely won't change their current methodolgies if the consumers get reasonably close to the EPA ratings especially for hybrids.   



#51 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 01:53 PM

I think the test cycles are based on how the "normal" driver accelerates, brakes, and so forth.  EPA has made changes to the cycles including adding cycles over time.  If one could show that Hybrid owners drive differently than the non-hybrid owners, perhaps additional cycles could be added just for hybrids.  But IMO, the acceleration at 2 bars is a lot slower than most drive (I even see Prius drivers accelerating quickly). :)

 

It appears that the fuelly data supports the C-Max, Prius, and Prius V EPA fuel economy numbers. Remember a few years ago when the EPA fined Kia $100 million (iirc) for over reporting their FE numbers.  We'll see if consumers can get the Niro and Ioniq FE they claim.  EPA likely won't change their current methodolgies if the consumers get reasonably close to the EPA ratings especially for hybrids.   

You should watch whether traffic passes you at 2 Bars on city streets up to 55 mph, most people don't for me. :)  The CMAX reaction time off the line is quicker than most ICE cars in EV is instantaneous which  gives you a good start and like I said before 2 Bars is pretty brisk. :)  Interesting that 2017 CMAX Hybrid owners are averaging about 44 mpg. I think they have been watching my YouTube video's. :lol:

 

  Paul



#52 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:50 PM

I think the test cycles are based on how the "normal" driver accelerates, brakes, and so forth.  EPA has made changes to the cycles including adding cycles over time.  If one could show that Hybrid owners drive differently than the non-hybrid owners, perhaps additional cycles could be added just for hybrids.  But IMO, the acceleration at 2 bars is a lot slower than most drive (I even see Prius drivers accelerating quickly). :)

 

It appears that the fuelly data supports the C-Max, Prius, and Prius V EPA fuel economy numbers. Remember a few years ago when the EPA fined Kia $100 million (iirc) for over reporting their FE numbers.  We'll see if consumers can get the Niro and Ioniq FE they claim.  EPA likely won't change their current methodolgies if the consumers get reasonably close to the EPA ratings especially for hybrids.   

 

What I saw of the Ioniq and Niro on Fuelly, before their database search became messed up, is that both cars seemed to be getting their EPA fuel economy numbers. 



#53 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 05:22 PM

I saw that too, but it was a just a few NIRO's and to make matters more confusing the small tires vs Big tires. :headscratch:  Interesting the 2017 CMAX Hybrid with only 6 are averaging 44 mpg doing much better than EPA. Makes me wonder if FORD figured out something. :headscratch:   When I did my Test drive in 2017 Titanium I got 46 mpg in the rain so should have gotten probably 48 mpg and then -1.5 mpg for Smart Gauge being off =46.5 mpg. Right up there with NIRO. :)

 

Paul


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