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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Hybrid Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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ForScan Major Update Release


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18 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 12:46 AM

As many know, ForScan is a Smartphone App that allows scanning (via the OBDII port using an ELM327 adapter) of virtually all PIDs for our C-Max.  Prior releases of ForScan did not allow scanning PIDs across modules.  One could only scan PIDs in one module at a time. Now, ForScan has an "ALL" module that when selected allows choosing PIDs to be scanned from all modules and displayed on the same screen.

 

In addition, there are now self tests that can be run on virtually all modules.  Also, the documentation has been significantly updated.  
 

Attached is a screenshot of PIDs from several modules - PCM, BCM, BECM, SOBDCM.

 

DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT. :)

 

Attached File  Screenshot_20180409-222142.png   383.77KB   0 downloads


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 10 April 2018 - 08:32 AM.

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#2 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:20 AM

What is G_PHTMP? :headscratch:

 

Paul



#3 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 10:55 AM

Generator Inverter Phase Temperature -

see Snowstorm's post here:

 

http://fordcmaxhybri...ater-pad/page-3


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#4 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:35 AM

Generator Inverter Phase Temperature -

see Snowstorm's post here:

 

http://fordcmaxhybri...ater-pad/page-3

 

I monitor TFT using ScanGaugeII and I'm wondering how much of a difference in temp there is. :headscratch:

 

Paul



#5 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 03:04 PM

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.



#6 OFFLINE   homestead

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:04 PM

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

 

While being in neutral accelerating the car may be more efficient, roads have curves and speed limits which limit

 

the efficiency.  So it is much more practical to charge up the the HVB and use it when its needed later.



#7 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:21 PM

The difference is likely to be slight and it would be very difficult to run a statistically significant and sufficiently accurate test to prove it out.  I generally agree with homestead.  If I knew there was a difference and had to pick, I'd pick neutral as more efficient but would "recommend" letting the car regen.  I almost never use neutral, maybe 1 or 2 miles out of 1000 - too much trouble and possible safety issue.



#8 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:28 PM

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

Here is my take on this:

 

Most of my coasting in neutral is at FWY speeds and usually on long down hills.  I will use D with EV or ICE to get to traffic speeds and then shift to N, if I continue to gain speed at around 5 mph over I'll shift back to D to maintain speed with regen. This usually keeps me from increasing speed, but when I start losing speed I'll go back to N.  When I drop below traffic speed I'll switch back to D and EV to maintain speed as long as I can.

 

In your first case the only loss different from your second case would be aero drag, tires losses would be about same for both cases. Gains would be lowering HVB temp causing higher output Wattage from HVB which I see alot of the time when doing N coasting. :) Somewhere I read Regen was around 80% efficient where as  Coasting in Neutral is close to 100%.

 

Paul


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#9 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:30 PM

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

I modeled this a few years ago.  Shifting into neutral wins.  The efficiency of the traction motor, inverter, wiring, HVB would be at best case 95% for the motor (more likely 92%), 97 % for the inverter (more likely 95%), 97% for the HVB (more likely 95%) and the wiring 99%.  So, Best Case = 0.95 * 0.97 * 0.99 * 0.97 * 0.99* 0.97 * 0.95 = 81 % and More likely Case = 71%.  I also ran regeneration test and did a literature search on efficiency of regeneration.  It seems that the capture of kinetic energy and reuse of such energy to propel the car is likely to be less than 70%.  IIRC, I got more like 65% efficiency when I ran tests.  I believe I referenced the research studies in a prior thread.

 

Also, on steeper, longer hills the HVB will fill up and ICE will be used for engine braking in D. So, I doubt the additional drag on the car when shifting to N would exceed 30%.  Of course if you were going down say a 12% grade your speed may pick up such that you have to shift back to D.  When I tested shifting to N on the interstates, it takes a fairly steep hill at 75 mph  before speed will increase much.  A few mph increase will be less than the 30%. 


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 10 April 2018 - 06:09 PM.

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#10 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:43 AM

Thanks all for the answers.   I should have mentioned safety and legality as a practical limit on free-wheeling speeds down hills; I agree of course.  Not that I have always been so concerned with these safety limits. I remember taking my Dad's 1961 Oldsmobile F85 late at night to the top of the Puente Hills east of L.A.    The Olds had a small aluminum V8 and 2-speed (!) transmission; I would put the car in neutral and turn off the engine while heading down the winding road back to the valley.  With the engine off there was just the whoosh of the wind noise, a bit like flying a glider.  It is nice to be able to get a similar experience more safely in the C-max, but I no longer head out after midnight just to get it....

 

My impression is that eco-cruise does let my speed run up some while going down a hill, while at the same time doing regen.  Yes? 


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#11 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 09:41 AM

Thanks all for the answers.   I should have mentioned safety and legality as a practical limit on free-wheeling speeds down hills; I agree of course.  Not that I have always been so concerned with these safety limits. I remember taking my Dad's 1961 Oldsmobile F85 late at night to the top of the Puente Hills east of L.A.    The Olds had a small aluminum V8 and 2-speed (!) transmission; I would put the car in neutral and turn off the engine while heading down the winding road back to the valley.  With the engine off there was just the whoosh of the wind noise, a bit like flying a glider.  It is nice to be able to get a similar experience more safely in the C-max, but I no longer head out after midnight just to get it....

 

My impression is that eco-cruise does let my speed run up some while going down a hill, while at the same time doing regen.  Yes? 

This is true. :)

 

Paul



#12 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 07:39 AM

Hmmm, my Energi tells me that I typically get about 20% regained by regen (trip & charge log: 10.3 mi, 2.0 miles from regen).  I drive in L after the first mile or so, and generally get 4mi/kWh.  This is on gently rolling eastern Mass topography, with the overall run slightly uphill.  The homeward (downhill) gets me 2.8 regen miles and 5.25 mi/kWh.

 

I never use N, L lets me control the speed as I wish as I drive one-pedal except for real stops.



#13 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:06 AM

Hmmm, my Energi tells me that I typically get about 20% regained by regen (trip & charge log: 10.3 mi, 2.0 miles from regen).  I drive in L after the first mile or so, and generally get 4mi/kWh.  This is on gently rolling eastern Mass topography, with the overall run slightly uphill.  The homeward (downhill) gets me 2.8 regen miles and 5.25 mi/kWh.

 

I never use N, L lets me control the speed as I wish as I drive one-pedal except for real stops.

So there is no confusion, the 20% is not the efficiency of the regeneration process:  converting the kinetic energy of motion to mechanical energy via the transaxel, to electrical energy via the traction motor, to DC via the inverter, to storage in the HVB, to AC via the inverter, to mechanical energy via the traction motor, and lastly back to kinetic energy via the transaxel to propel the car.   The 20% is simply the amount of distance driven provided by the regeneration process over total distance that was traveled.  IIRC, there was discussion on how the regen miles and brake score are actually computed and the accuracy of the computation.


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 12 April 2018 - 09:14 AM.

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#14 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:11 AM

...


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 12 April 2018 - 09:13 AM.


#15 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 08:20 PM

I monitor TFT using ScanGaugeII and I'm wondering how much of a difference in temp there is. :headscratch:

 

Paul

I believe I posted about the relationship among TFT, the generator coil temp, and the motor coil temp with numbers.   IIRC, during regen the motor coil temp climbs quickly above TFT depending on amount of regen and time.  You can watch the current (I think inverter but maybe motor, can't recall) for indication of how much regen.  Eventually, TFT will climb if the regen is long (going down longer hill).   When using the traction motor (88 kW) to propel the car, the event is shorter and motor coil temp doesn't rise much and has little effect on TFT.   When charging the HVB with the generator (64 kW), generator coil temp and TFT are fairly stable as the generator is smaller, the battery sustained charge rate is limited to 35 kW, and the control algorithm should operate ICE to efficiently split the power between charging and propelling the car.  Thus, charging the HVB via the generator is likely significantly less kW than with regen and hence temps don't increase as much.

 

Bottom line IMO, TFT should be all that needs monitored.  However, if TFT seems higher than normal, one can check the other temp sensors including cylinder head, coolant, coil and so forth.  I'll see if I can find the post(s) about these coil temps.


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 12 April 2018 - 08:21 PM.

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#16 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:35 PM

Below is data on the coil temps.  I did not have ForScan when I ran these tests about 3 years ago.  We'll be making a trip to Flagstaff in the next several months.  So, I'll capture data on these temps for analysis.

 

Relatively flat road with very slight rolling terrain.

No grille covers.

ICE at operating temperature

Ambient Temp = 90 F

AC on at 74 set point

30 Mile Round trip

 - 20 miles at 67-72 mph with one exit to turn around

 - 10 miles at 25 - 55 mph with several stops each direction

 

Temperature Range:

140 F < TFT < 148 F

160 F < Motor Coil Temp < 175 F

150 F < Generator Coil Temp < 165 F

 

Motor coil temps were highest at the end of regenerative braking. When high speed cruising, temperatures varied little and were about in the middle of the ranges above.


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#17 OFFLINE   djc

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 07:35 PM


Attached is a screenshot of PIDs from several modules - PCM, BCM, BECM, SOBDCM.

 

DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT. :)

 

P3G,

 

Could you walk us through these parameters you have chosen to display on the screenshot you attached to your original post, explaining what they are and why you find them useful (besides the tire pressures?)

 

I am thinking the 12v battery charge would be interesting to know.  Maybe also info on whether the friction brakes are about to engage?

  If so, do you know the names of parameters available in Forscan that might show those?

Is there any mpg info that is good to know but that is not clear from the stock Empower /MyView etc displays included on the C-max dash?



#18 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 08:52 PM

I just picked PIDs from different modules - nothing special.

 

The car was in the garage for an hour after being driven.  We reached triple digits that day.  Garage was hot and inside the car was even hotter when I decided to check out the new release.

 

So, I picked the interior cabin  temp, the internal inverter temp, generator coil temp, and  the cylinder head temp to see how hot it was in the garage.  We discussed before the resetting of the 12 V battery age (days since I reset it).  I always monitor tire pressure. I noted that the battery symbol showed about 25%.  So I picked HVB SOC and the HVB displayed SOC and the HVB voltage to see how low it was. 

 

Prior to this release, I picked maybe 6-10 items to monitor in about 1/2 the modules and would flip through the modules - about a six step process to switch to a different module. Now I should be able to put virtually all those PIDs on the "ALL" module and simply swipe the sceen to scroll through the data.  


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#19 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted Yesterday, 10:00 AM

djc, in reply to monitoring friction braking.  Below is a test I did and posted prior on friction brakes and brake score.

 

"Here's an example, one can monitor the left and right front ABS pressure sensors.  In preliminary testing, I wanted to see if I could use this data to apply the maximum brake pressure and still score 100% brake score. There was a post / thread very early on where someone wanted an indication of how much brake pedal could be used before friction braking took over and reduced the brake score.  The nominal brake pressure readings were under about 7 psi cruising (probably sensor variability).  I began to depress the brake pedal to slow down.  If the pressure sensor reading didn't change, I scored 100% brake score.  As I pressed the brake pedal harder, there was a point where the pressure reading jumped to mid teens PSI.  I could not "feel" that the frictionbrakes were applied. The brake score was 96%. "

 

BTW, I broke down and purchased the OBDLink MX module ($80.15) to replace my "generic" bluetooth ELM327.  I will now be able to monitor modules on the lower speed CAN without needing a toggle switch. Should have it next week.  I noted there are now many generic ELM327 modules that can be purchased with the toggle switch added. 








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