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What's next after Ford C-Max


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49 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 03:16 PM

The last of the Production for the C-max has passed in Michigan, no plans to shift production to Mexico for this Model, its gone. A real shame, excellent Hybryd, Ford just failed to get behind the C-max and market it...all over the Gas Mileage issue with the Prius.  

 

So what's next for this Hybryd Power-train\technology?  It goes into the EcoSport small SUV in 2019?  Or Escape?  The operational of the C-Max's technology going forward warrants it continued use....a lot went into its development and Ford would be stupid not to continue to offer this Hybryd in another "smaller" SUV.  Problem is as I see it, larger Vehicle, heavier vehicle, lower MPG...but I'd rather see the Lower MPG then this Technology disappearing as well.

 

So who knows, what's next for the C-max's Technology?    


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#2 OFFLINE   kyledamron

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 03:57 PM

Ford announced a few years ago that they're planning on electrifying/hybriding the majority of their vehicles. They've already announced that the new Explorer (at least the interceptor utility) will be a hybrid. I'm assuming that they're planning on making the next generation Escape have hybrid technology as well.



#3 OFFLINE   markd

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 04:23 PM

My friend in corporate said to expect the Escape and Transit Connect in the dealerships next March.

#4 OFFLINE   markd

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 04:26 PM

Oh, and the Focus Active in the fall of next year, that's what I'm waiting on. Supposed to be really good mpg on this, mid fifties.

Edited by markd, 12 July 2018 - 04:27 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:21 PM

I really would have thought the Hybryd would have ripe for the New EcoSport given its size.  I believe it is smaller than the Escape.  I would like to trade in 2019 my 2016 C-Max....not because I am unhappy with it, to the contrary, but even tho after 3yrs or 36,000 I believe its Power train Warranty is 5yrs/60,000, and batteries 8yrs 80,000???? there still remains all the electronics that will cease to have warranty coverage once my icicle reached 3 yrs old.  Extended Warranties are available, even direct from Ford, I simply feel they are over Priced and they also have excludes of what is covered.  I am at a point in my life where....keep a car right up until its factory Warranty expires; trade it for new.  I've seen some repair Bills on vehicles from friends out of Warranty....and they are out of sight.  Given today's Electronic I have my concerns of trusting an electronic Type repair to an Independent repair shop.   So to remain with a Ford. Hybryd vehicle, Ford would need to have a small version Hybryd Hybryd in the market by 2/2019.  I recently purchased as my 2nd car a 2018 Kia Niro, a Hybryd...operates similar to the C-Max except for the Tranny...it has a Dual Clutch 6 speed Tranny.   I like both cars....the C-Max will run on Electric Power at lower speeds more so that the Niro, but, because the Niro has lower overall hp....it gets up to 10 to -12 per gallon more than the C-max...and I drive the C-max and Niro in similar driving patterns.   The Dual Clutch Tranny is different..but there is no Torque Converter to absorb Power efficiency...   another reason for the higher GPM.....



#6 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 02:00 PM

I really would have thought the Hybryd would have ripe for the New EcoSport given its size.  I believe it is smaller than the Escape.  I would like to trade in 2019 my 2016 C-Max....not because I am unhappy with it, to the contrary, but even tho after 3yrs or 36,000 I believe its Power train Warranty is 5yrs/60,000, and batteries 8yrs 80,000???? there still remains all the electronics that will cease to have warranty coverage once my icicle reached 3 yrs old.  Extended Warranties are available, even direct from Ford, I simply feel they are over Priced and they also have excludes of what is covered.  I am at a point in my life where....keep a car right up until its factory Warranty expires; trade it for new.  I've seen some repair Bills on vehicles from friends out of Warranty....and they are out of sight.  Given today's Electronic I have my concerns of trusting an electronic Type repair to an Independent repair shop.   So to remain with a Ford. Hybryd vehicle, Ford would need to have a small version Hybryd Hybryd in the market by 2/2019.  I recently purchased as my 2nd car a 2018 Kia Niro, a Hybryd...operates similar to the C-Max except for the Tranny...it has a Dual Clutch 6 speed Tranny.   I like both cars....the C-Max will run on Electric Power at lower speeds more so that the Niro, but, because the Niro has lower overall hp....it gets up to 10 to -12 per gallon more than the C-max...and I drive the C-max and Niro in similar driving patterns.   The Dual Clutch Tranny is different..but there is no Torque Converter to absorb Power efficiency...   another reason for the higher GPM.....

 

A slight correction, the 8 yr, 100,000 mile warranty is not just for the battery pack, it is for the "hybrid components." Ford specifically lists, "high-voltage battery, hybrid continuously variable transmission, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, high-voltage battery connector, battery pack fan assembly, thermistor probe, Hybrid Battery Pack Sensor Module (HBPSM), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), and the PHEV onboard charger." as covered as hybrid components in the 2013 warranty. So most of the electronics needed for the hybrid system are covered up to 100,000 miles.


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#7 OFFLINE   markd

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 02:00 PM

We bought the extended warranty, five years. Have you driven a Ecosport? It's very narrow without much room. As for the Niro if you want one with all the options the mpg is low forties.
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#8 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 05:51 PM

A slight correction, the 8 yr, 100,000 mile warranty is not just for the battery pack, it is for the "hybrid components." Ford specifically lists, "high-voltage battery, hybrid continuously variable transmission, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, high-voltage battery connector, battery pack fan assembly, thermistor probe, Hybrid Battery Pack Sensor Module (HBPSM), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), and the PHEV onboard charger." as covered as hybrid components in the 2013 warranty. So most of the electronics needed for the hybrid system are covered up to 100,000 miles.

 

 

I really would have thought the Hybryd would have ripe for the New EcoSport given its size.  I believe it is smaller than the Escape.  I would like to trade in 2019 my 2016 C-Max....not because I am unhappy with it, to the contrary, but even tho after 3yrs or 36,000 I believe its Power train Warranty is 5yrs/60,000, and batteries 8yrs 80,000???? there still remains all the electronics that will cease to have warranty coverage once my icicle reached 3 yrs old.  Extended Warranties are available, even direct from Ford, I simply feel they are over Priced and they also have excludes of what is covered.  I am at a point in my life where....keep a car right up until its factory Warranty expires; trade it for new.  I've seen some repair Bills on vehicles from friends out of Warranty....and they are out of sight.  Given today's Electronic I have my concerns of trusting an electronic Type repair to an Independent repair shop.   So to remain with a Ford. Hybryd vehicle, Ford would need to have a small version Hybryd Hybryd in the market by 2/2019.  I recently purchased as my 2nd car a 2018 Kia Niro, a Hybryd...operates similar to the C-Max except for the Tranny...it has a Dual Clutch 6 speed Tranny.   I like both cars....the C-Max will run on Electric Power at lower speeds more so that the Niro, but, because the Niro has lower overall hp....it gets up to 10 to -12 per gallon more than the C-max...and I drive the C-max and Niro in similar driving patterns.   The Dual Clutch Tranny is different..but there is no Torque Converter to absorb Power efficiency...   another reason for the higher GPM.....

 

Here is a place that sells the extended warranty at a substantial discount just in case that may effect your decision.

https://andersonandk...d-warranty.com/

 

For more info google "fordcmaxhybridforum.com extended warranty"



#9 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 09:53 AM

Took a look at Link for extended Warranty.....they don't offer the warranty in Florida.  What that means is, they could not get approval from the Florida Insurance dept to sell their product to residents in Florida.....which can be a red Flag.  

 

Is nice to know most if not all major parts of the Hybryd system is covered beyond the 3/36.....makes me feel a little better should I decided to keep the C-Max longer than 3/36.  

 

As to MPG...on the Kia.  I specifically stayed away from the LX Model that has a lower MPG...due to extra equipment and it being heavier.....the FE and Ex (which I have) models provide the highest MPG. Once again, had Ford not announced the end of the C-Max....I don't know whether I would have purchased the 2018 C-Max or 2018 Kia.  I may have leaned a little more toward the Kia, only because it was different and I like trying out new and different Products...and because I leased the 2018 KIA....it meant in 3 yrs I would just be giving it back.  So far...great reviews on the Kia....like I wrote, it runs more off the ICE than the C-Max does...but overall its gloving 10 MPG. 

 

Like I wrote in another POST, I just wish for my piece of Mind.....the C-Max's battery symbol....the C-Max's battery symbol use to remain in a 30% to 80% range...and now it seems to run in the 15% to 60% range..thinking that might be an indicator of Battery packs going bad....I was assured in that other Post...it isn't so and not to be concerned...wish I could get past it.  But I am guessing the 8/100 Hybryd extended warranty on the Battery pack is based on a Pro-Rated coverage basis... 



#10 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 10:15 AM

Took a look at Link for extended Warranty.....they don't offer the warranty in Florida.  What that means is, they could not get approval from the Florida Insurance dept to sell their product to residents in Florida.....which can be a red Flag.  

 

Is nice to know most if not all major parts of the Hybryd system is covered beyond the 3/36.....makes me feel a little better should I decided to keep the C-Max longer than 3/36.  

 

As to MPG...on the Kia.  I specifically stayed away from the LX Model that has a lower MPG...due to extra equipment and it being heavier.....the FE and Ex (which I have) models provide the highest MPG. Once again, had Ford not announced the end of the C-Max....I don't know whether I would have purchased the 2018 C-Max or 2018 Kia.  I may have leaned a little more toward the Kia, only because it was different and I like trying out new and different Products...and because I leased the 2018 KIA....it meant in 3 yrs I would just be giving it back.  So far...great reviews on the Kia....like I wrote, it runs more off the ICE than the C-Max does...but overall its gloving 10 MPG. 

 

Like I wrote in another POST, I just wish for my piece of Mind.....the C-Max's battery symbol....the C-Max's battery symbol use to remain in a 30% to 80% range...and now it seems to run in the 15% to 60% range..thinking that might be an indicator of Battery packs going bad....I was assured in that other Post...it isn't so and not to be concerned...wish I could get past it.  But I am guessing the 8/100 Hybryd extended warranty on the Battery pack is based on a Pro-Rated coverage basis... 

 

Perhaps you can get a maintenance quote from Koch from another state and use that to shop around, though I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work. You might be straight forward and say if I can get a discounted agreement I will not be buying a Kia. Sounds like the dealers in Florida are politically powerful.  By the way, you need to do it before the car is 3 years old and perhaps also under 60.000 miles.  After that the prices go up and as I recall you need an inspection of some kind.

 

There are many posts on this forum about how the high voltage battery will last a long time, perhaps longer than the life of the car.  And no one with a hybrid has posted needing to replace the battery.  ( I have read about problems with the C-Max energi because of the way the battery is charged differently, less conservatively. )


Edited by obob, 14 July 2018 - 10:19 AM.


#11 OFFLINE   NRGTi

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 01:24 AM

My friend in corporate said to expect the Escape and Transit Connect in the dealerships next March.

A TC hybrid would appeal to plenty of outdoorsy Subaru market, as well as to practical seniors and small families looking for a minivan alternative. I like it, but I don't need the space.



#12 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 10:59 AM

Took a look at Link for extended Warranty.....they don't offer the warranty in Florida.  What that means is, they could not get approval from the Florida Insurance dept to sell their product to residents in Florida.....which can be a red Flag.  

 

Is nice to know most if not all major parts of the Hybryd system is covered beyond the 3/36.....makes me feel a little better should I decided to keep the C-Max longer than 3/36.  

 

As to MPG...on the Kia.  I specifically stayed away from the LX Model that has a lower MPG...due to extra equipment and it being heavier.....the FE and Ex (which I have) models provide the highest MPG. Once again, had Ford not announced the end of the C-Max....I don't know whether I would have purchased the 2018 C-Max or 2018 Kia.  I may have leaned a little more toward the Kia, only because it was different and I like trying out new and different Products...and because I leased the 2018 KIA....it meant in 3 yrs I would just be giving it back.  So far...great reviews on the Kia....like I wrote, it runs more off the ICE than the C-Max does...but overall its gloving 10 MPG. 

 

Like I wrote in another POST, I just wish for my piece of Mind.....the C-Max's battery symbol....the C-Max's battery symbol use to remain in a 30% to 80% range...and now it seems to run in the 15% to 60% range..thinking that might be an indicator of Battery packs going bad....I was assured in that other Post...it isn't so and not to be concerned...wish I could get past it.  But I am guessing the 8/100 Hybryd extended warranty on the Battery pack is based on a Pro-Rated coverage basis... 

Here is a Link to My testing of  5 KIA NIRO's in which I got better MPG's than all of them in MADMAX. To get the best MPG's in a CMAX you don't drive it like a NIRO. http://fordcmaxhybri...drives/?hl=niro

I found the NIRO to lack EV power off the start and overall it lacked power, surprised you don't notice this when driving NIRO.  :)  You might look at "How to drive a CMAX to get Great Gasmileage videos. http://fordcmaxhybri...-mileage/page-1

You didn't say what MPG's you were getting in CMAX, do you have the OEM Michelin's on the car? :headscratch:

 

Paul



#13 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 04:20 PM

I have the 2018 Kia Niro....I am getting anywhere from 52 to 55 MPG in mixed driving.  Driving both the CMax and the Niro....I do not notice a difference/lack EV power off the start and overall it lacked power other than with the CMax CVT you feel no shift, in the Niro you do.  Here's how I look at buying and driving a Hybryd.  If you want a speedy, powerful car that means you will be heavy on the Gas, don't buy a Hybryd.  You buy a Hybryd not for speed or Power, you buy it to get high Gas Mileage.  I like/enjoy both cars...although they operate slightly different, I can get the CMax in EV most of the times by just a slight eases off the accelerator, that doesn't always work for the Niro.  But both cars generally are driver the trips/similar...and the CMax averages 40 to 42 mpg, the Niro 52 to 58 mpg.  I do feel the Niro as is the case for most foreign cars, has a better quality build....my CMax was delivered with 1 Headlight lens molded poorly, the other has lose particles inside of it, a portion of the dashboard had to be replaced as it was badly scratched, and the headliner has a small defect.  I have only purchased 2 Foreign cars in my Long driving life, a Honda CR-V and this Niro, neither of these Cars had any appearance issues.   It is because of my ownership of the CMax that I purchased another Hybryd.....I am sold on them.   

 

I had read the other 2 Posts....I am sure different drivers will always come away with different results.....had Ford not terminated the C-Max I still feel I would have gone with the 2018 Niro only because my experience with the CMax's quality build was a little disappointing.  I am willing in 2019 when my CMax reaches 3 yrs in service to look at and consider the Escape Hybrid.....


Edited by Telerisk, 20 July 2018 - 04:31 PM.


#14 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 01:08 PM

I have a 2013 SEL and I found the CMAX had a noticeably higher quality interior than all of the NIRO models I tested and the Car Reviewers agreed like wise. I don't know what model of CMAX you have but I'm guessing SE.  One thing you need to be aware of the FE/EX have poor cornering capability in sharp/avoidance/ emergency turns the car will slide out of control with the narrower tires it comes with where the CMAX won't. I had this happen to me during test Drive of EX, I came back on the same route with my CMAX with no sliding. The narrow tires is why the FE/EX get better MPG's than the Touring/LX, but poorer handling.  The Touring/LX have the wider tires so will do better in avoidance/Emergency situations.  Bottom line the CMAX is just a better handling car which is a good safety feature .  Here is a test for you, charge up the HVB of both of your cars and then go from 0 mph to as fast as you can go in EV and see how fast you can go. What I saw the NIRO If I drove slowly got to 35 mph before ICE would turn on and the CMAX much quicker can get to 50+ mph.  :)  It would be curious to see you drive both of your cars to see the differences in you driving technique. Are you figuring actual MPG using gallons used at the pump divided into miles driven? You should join Fuelly.com and log your fill ups.   BTW I'm getting Fuelly.com 52 -58.5 mpg with mostly HWY miles for my last ten fill ups and have several tanks 64 to 68.3 mpg to give you an idea of what can be done with a CMAX.   :)

 

Paul 



#15 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 22 July 2018 - 10:34 AM

Lets get down to the mechanics....if you have a car with combined HP of 139 vs a car with Combined HP of 188.....surely having 50hp more that car should accelerator more quickly...and the Cmax does accelerate more quickly.  The downside of that is, the faster you accelerate the lower your overall Gas Mileage (I know you were referring to acceleration remaining on the EV as long as possible for the test; but it may be that the EV of the Cmax puts out more Hp than that of the Niro).  I did not mean to say my Niro can accelerate as quickly as my C-Max....it doesn't, but it has more acceleration than I or most will ever need.  I am however not sure in a test the Niro will be that far behind the Cmax.  Lets keep this in mind, as I wrote previously, a Hybryd for most people isn't purchased for speed, its for its gas Mileage and in my real life ownership and I don't drive either car any differently....the Niro is getting Approx 10 to 12 miles per gallon more than the Cmax.  

 

I actually purchased the SEL also...top of the Line.  

 

In all due respect, you test drove the Niro...and you drive the Cmax all the time.  I am driving both the Cmax and the Niro all the time.  I find the handling of both cars excellent and I enjoy driving both cars.  I am just glad that given the demise of the CMax, Kia released the Niro otherwise I might have had to purchase a Non-Hybryd vehicle.  I have owned the CMax for 2 Years; the Niro EX for 6 months.  My concerns now, what will the CMax bring in a Trade-in in 2019 when I am ready to replace it with a new Vehicle.  My other concern now is the Battery in the CMax....by the dashboard Battery symbol, it seems to be slow to increase charge, and quick to show a lower charge...... 

 

I do figure Gas Mileage by actual pen and Paper/by math....and in both cars I fine the Gas Mileage is a little over stated by their On-board Displays.  


Edited by Telerisk, 23 July 2018 - 09:46 AM.


#16 ONLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 22 July 2018 - 10:57 AM

Close.

 

Attached File  niro.JPG   41.46KB   0 downloads

Attached File  c-maz.JPG   30.06KB   0 downloads


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 22 July 2018 - 10:59 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   Telerisk

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 09:56 AM

0-60 Cmax 7.9; Niro 8.6....would support what I wrote, Niro wouldn't be far behind the CMax.....and with speed the downside is lower Gas Mileage.  Like I wrote, owning both cars, I like both of them.  A real plus on the CMax is its AC.  By far the AC in the CMax gets cooler faster than any other Car I have ever owned and the shear volume of supply air given the very Large AC vents is terrific and cools down a car very quickly.  The Niro was the Only Hybryd I researched that operated almost like the CMax....  I personally believe that had Ford stayed with the CMax, updated its exterior styling, its size, SUV Design, etc...it could have been a top selling Hybryd.  In fact, the Cmax is manufactured in Europe with rear sliding doors....but Ford had reported 2 years ago when that European model was released that the model would never come to the US.  Is Ford still manufacturing the CMax in Europe?   


Edited by Telerisk, 23 July 2018 - 09:58 AM.


#18 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 01:40 PM

I looked it up for 2013 CMAX Hybrid 0-60 mph times.

Motor Tread 8.2 sec

Car and Driver 7.6 sec

Edmunds 8.3sec

Autotk.com 8.1sec

PTjones 205k mi. 2013 SEL 8 sec

 

I haven't heard or seen anything about FORD changing the Hybrid System so times should be the same for all 2013 to 2018 CMAX Hybrids. :)

 

Lets get down to the mechanics....if you have a car with combined HP of 139 vs a car with Combined HP of 188.....surely having 50hp more that car should accelerator more quickly...and the Cmax does accelerate more quickly.  The downside of that is, the faster you accelerate the lower your overall Gas Mileage This isn't true for the CMAX and if you payed attention to my video on Gas Mileage you would know that 2 Bar acceleration is more efficient than going slow.  (I know you were referring to acceleration remaining on the EV as long as possible for the test; but it may be that the EV of the Cmax puts out more Hp than that of the Niro).You are right and that was my point, the CMAX is designed to run in EV Mode only a good percentage of the time and that is how you can get great MPG's..    I did not mean to say my Niro can accelerate as quickly as my C-Max....it doesn't, but it has more acceleration than I or most will ever need.  This isn't true either, we have alot previous Prius owners that switched to CMAX because of the more power and better handling, Prius was to scary to drive on the the FWY for some.  I am however not sure in a test the Niro will be that far behind the Cmax.  Lets keep this in mind, as I wrote previously, a Hybryd for most people isn't purchased for speed, its for its gas Mileage and in my real life ownership and I don't drive either car any differently....the Niro is getting Approx 10 to 12 miles per gallon more than the Cmax. And this is why you aren't getting better MPG's in the CMAX, look at my GasMileage video to see why. :) 

 

I actually purchased the SEL also...top of the Line. Then you should have seen the CMAX has higher quality materials on the interior of the car. :) 

 

In all due respect, you test drove the Niro...and you drive the Cmax all the time.  I am driving both the Cmax and the Niro all the time.  I find the handling of both cars excellent and I enjoy driving both cars.  I am just glad that given the demise of the CMax, Kia released the Niro otherwise I might have had to purchase a Non-Hybryd vehicle.  I have owned the CMax for 2 Years; the Niro EX for 6 months.  My concerns now, what will the CMax bring in a Trade-in in 2019 when I am ready to replace it with a new Vehicle.  My other concern now is the Battery in the CMax....by the dashboard Battery symbol, it seems to be slow to increase charge, and quick to show a lower charge......You won't see any difference on the on the SmartGauge and you are fooling yourself If you do. I use a ScanGaugeII to monitor the SOC(state of charge of the HVB) the Smart Gauge only shows you about 32% to 65% SOC so you don't even see 2/3rds of the HVB capacity.  Six years almost on this Forum I have never heard of anyone replacing a HVB and shouldn't have too with 66% in reserve, it will last longer than the car.  Bottom line is this is the cheapest car I have ever own, when you add in I have 205k miles  (highest mileage car I've had before was about 100k mi.) which would make the car's initial cost down to $14k plus the amount gas money I have saved. I'm hoping to get 300k-500k miles when all said and done. There is no other car that has everything the CMAX has and the Fun factor too. IMO :)  

 

 

 

 

 

I do figure Gas Mileage by actual pen and Paper/by math....and in both cars I fine the Gas Mileage is a little over stated by their On-board Displays.  Check your odometer, it is off by 1.5 to 2% with Michelin tires so you could be getting upto a mpg better than you think. :) 

Paul



#19 ONLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 02:38 PM

"Ever wondered why the 0-60 mph time from publication A is lower than the one from publication B? It's generally not because one has better drivers than the other, especially in today's world of launch control and automatic transmissions. Nor is it due to equipment accuracy, as everyone uses Racelogic VBOX data loggers. The time difference is usually due to the liberal use of a correction factor and the needless application of rollout. 

 

Rollout comes from the drag strip. When you start a quarter-mile run, the timing lights don't start until the front wheel is all the way over the starting line. That number used to be approximated by subtracting the first foot of an acceleration run. Now a common substitute is to cut the first 3 mph from a run, cutting as much as 0.3 seconds off the time. Some publications post a 0-60 mph with rollout and others do not. Once again, there is no standard. In either case, it means the number in print isn't the number you feel.

Weather corrections need to be applied because engines make different power in different weather conditions. Temperature, altitude, and humidity all make a difference. While most publications claim to use an SAE standard to correct for weather variations during testing, the application of the correction changes from publication to publication. In order for a number to be comparable, it needs to be corrected. But weather corrections normalize for perfect testing conditions where an engine will be at an optimal operating condition. In the real world, a vehicle will almost never be driven in perfect weather, meaning it will never actually make the power the tests correct for." 

... 

"Aside from weather correction and rollout, there are plenty of other factors that can change a 0-60 time. Non-standard tires, fuel, and weight can all affect performance testing. Some vehicles with sophisticated launch control systems that are set up for a perfect 0-60 run are actually slower in a rolling 5-60 mph test. Often times, test drivers will use and abuse a vehicle in a way no real owner ever would."


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 23 July 2018 - 02:49 PM.


#20 OFFLINE   DarenHayes

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 03:54 PM

My parents were thinking of getting a cmax sel 2018..they live on Prince Edward Island.. The closest available sel is in Ontario. Ridiculous. I think theyre getting a Niro instead now.






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