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Battery usage?


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33 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 03:06 PM

Interesting, I can increase speed at 65 mph in EV, maybe it is because of my MODS with less aero drag. :headscratch:  You Think?  The ability to accelerate in EV is tied to SOC, the higher percentage SOC the more power you have available in EV.  The temperature of the HVB has an effect on this too.  Most CMAX Hybrid owners don't realize that their CMAX is an Energi with a small HVB, about 1/4 the size and then the computer only allows you to use 1/3 of it.  :sad:

 

If you want to see what it is like to drive an Energi, tonight when you are going Home the last few miles don't use EV and try to keep your HVB charged up as much as possible.  The next morning after turning on the CMAX use the Empower Smart Gauge to see what your SOC of the HVB which should be close to the top. Then look at the available EV power in blue box on left side and the top of it should be around the 2 Bar line. Then drive off watching the blue power being used line in the blue power available box not to exceed the top of the box. You will be surprised how powerful the car is in EV and will be able to go a mile or 2 in EV if you keep it under 35 mph. If you go above that the ICE will start automatically to lubricate the trans.  After that you can go back to EV and accelerate up to 55 mph in EV before you run out of HVB power. :)

The Energi can go up to 85 mph in EV, but the HVB will discharge very quickly and cutting down the range in EV.

 

Paul 

Yes, I can also increase speed (apply throttle) above 65 mph now in EV but not pre-13B07.  This discussuon started based on how to determine whether the poster had 13b07. 

 

Yes, the torque monitor algorithm will see less torque requirement because of your aero mods.  Obviously, the algorithms in the Energi will have more kWh available in the HVB and an auxiliary electric cooling pump, and thus can allocate all torque requirements to EV up to the nominal 85 mph limit or max torque limit of the traction motor for a longer period of time than the hybrid. 

 

I have already driven nearly 2 miles in EV mode several years ago and documented it in this post. What point are you trying to make?  My SOC declined about 30% or HVB energy declined about 0.4 kWh.  At slow speed one should be able to drive about 5 miles per kWh or 2 miles on 0.4 kWh - nothing new. :)









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#22 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 04:26 PM

Before 13b07 I could drive at 66 mph in EV by doing exactly what I said in my previous post.  What I could not do was to increase speed from below 62 to 66 mph in EV.  In fact, even with the EV limit at 85 mph it's virtually impossible to accelerate from a lower speed to 85 mph in EV unless one is going down a steep grade. I believe overall torque requirement is also taken into account in addition to absolute speed when determining EV mode operation. 

Your statement above was a little confusing for me. :)

 

Paul



#23 OFFLINE   Redshift

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 09:47 AM

 

No, your addition to my post (shown in red) is incorrect. 

 

The generator rotation physically changes direction in negative split mode from positive split mode. So, by changing electronically the phase relationship of the 3 phases of the generator, the generator can be made to spin in the opposite direction thereby allowing the rpm of ICE to drop while still applying the same torque demand.  The generator rpm is added to the reduced ICE rpm to keep rpm to the wheels virtually the same.  See attached chart showing ICE, Generator, and Traction Motor RPM that I posted several years ago.  Clearly, the generator physically changed direction of rotation (blue dotted line). Also note how the Generator controls the overall "gear ratio" (green dotted line vs blue dotted line). 

 

Also, the torque requirements must remain in balance to the wheels to maintain the same speed.  So, the traction motor can act as a generator producing electric energy that will be used by the generator (acting as a motor).  The control algorithms will adjust the torque requirements of the generator and traction motor to keep ICE operating as efficiently as possible.  But, the transmission operating efficiency suffers because of the losses in the generator and motor converting mechanical energy to electrical and back to mechanical in negative spit mode. 

 

attachicon.gifC-Max RPM.JPG

 

The electric motors spin at high RPM. They DO NOT physically reverse direction. https://www.thoughtc...ters-work-85612

 



#24 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 01:46 PM

Redshift tell me what happens when you shift into reverse???? 



#25 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:53 PM

For those that don't understand how a Power Split transmission works go to this link and set the sliders in the animation as I describe below for examples of how positive, negative, EV, reverse, and stationary modes work.   The rpms shown are based on the Prius transmission.  The C-Max rpms will be different but the same principles apply.  Also, this diargam is for rpm only and not torque as the motors can supply positive or negative torque irrespective of rotational direction.

 

Stationary Mode:  vehicle is not moving.   1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to zero mph. 2) move ICE slider up and down. 3) the generator rpm will be positive and the control algorithms will determine whether to charge the HVB by applying the appropriate three phase voltages and frequency to generator (MG1) so that current will flow from the generator to the inverter and then to the HVB.  The rotation of MG1 is deemed positive.

 

Reverse Mode:  vehicle is moving in reverse.  1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to -10 mph.  2) move ICE slider to zero.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be positive.  The traction motor (MG2) will supply torque to the wheels so the vehicle moves in reverse (negative rpm).

 

EV Mode: ICE is off and vehicle is being propelled by the traction motor (MG2).   1) set ICE to zero rpm.  2) move MG2 slider up and down above zero rpm.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be negative.  For the C-Max, the gearing is such that rpm is almost a -1:1 ratio of MG1:MG2 rpm.  The control algorithms will use the energy from the HVB to operate MG2.  

 

Positive Split Mode:   ICE is on and vehicle is moving. HVB being charged.  1)  set ICE rpm slider and traction motor rpm slider (MG2) so that the generator rpm (MG1) is greater than zero.  This is positive split mode where the control algoritms determine how much ICE torque is applied to the generator to charge the HVB.

 

Negative Split Mode:  ICE is on, HVB SOC is high (control algorithms won't allow any more charge), and vehicle cruising at higher speed.  1)  Set MG2 rpm high (say above 65 mph) to simulate that EV mode would not likely be used.  2)  set ICE slider so that MG1 rpm is about zero.   3) now slide ICE rpm lower simulating constant torque but at reduced rpm (more efficient operating point on the BSFC map of ICE). MG1 rpm is negative (physical rotation has changed from positive split mode.  The control algorithms will operate MG1 as a motor applying torque to slow down ICE.  The traction motor rpm remains constant but may act as a generator to utilize the combined torque of ICE and MG1 or motor if additional torque is required in both cases to maintain speed.

 

As one can see from my graph in a previous post and the linked demo (despite what Redshift continues to say),  the algorithms will switch the physical direction of rotation of the generator extremely quickly via electronics and seamless to the driver for the benefit of operating most efficiently. 


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 02 October 2018 - 07:50 PM.

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#26 OFFLINE   Redshift

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:25 AM

Redshift tell me what happens when you shift into reverse???? 

Since there is no reverses gear, the electric motor DOES reverse. It does not reverse when going down the highway. That would put way too much stress on the electric motors. Notice how Ford stresses in the owner's manual to be at a full stop when switching into reverses or you could damage the tranny.



#27 OFFLINE   Redshift

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM

For those that don't understand how a Power Split transmission works go to this link and set the sliders in the animation as I describe below for examples of how positive, negative, EV, reverse, and stationary modes work.   The rpms shown are based on the Prius transmission.  The C-Max rpms will be different but the same principles apply.  Also, this diargam is for rpm only and not torque as the motors can supply positive or negative torque irrespective of rotational direction.

 

Stationary Mode:  vehicle is not moving.   1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to zero mph. 2) move ICE slider up and down. 3) the generator rpm will be positive and the control algorithms will determine whether to charge the HVB by applying the appropriate three phase voltages and frequency to generator (MG1) so that current will flow from the generator to the inverter and then to the HVB.  The rotation of MG1 is deemed positive.

 

Reverse Mode:  vehicle is moving in reverse.  1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to -10 mph.  2) move ICE slider to zero.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be positive.  The traction motor (MG2) will supply torque to the wheels so the vehicle moves in reverse (negative rpm).

 

EV Mode: ICE is off and vehicle is being propelled by the traction motor (MG2).   1) set ICE to zero rpm.  2) move MG2 slider up and down above zero rpm.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be negative.  For the C-Max, the gearing is such that rpm is almost a -1:1 ratio of MG1:MG2 rpm.  The control algorithms will use the energy from the HVB to operate MG2.  

 

Positive Split Mode:   ICE is on and vehicle is moving. HVB being charged.  1)  set ICE rpm slider and traction motor rpm slider (MG2) so that the generator rpm (MG1) is greater than zero.  This is positive split mode where the control algoritms determine how much ICE torque is applied to the generator to charge the HVB.

 

Negative Split Mode:  ICE is on, HVB SOC is high (control algorithms won't allow any more charge), and vehicle cruising at higher speed.  1)  Set MG2 rpm high (say above 65 mph) to simulate that EV mode would not likely be used.  2)  set ICE slider so that MG1 rpm is about zero.   3) now slide ICE rpm lower simulating constant torque but at reduced rpm (more efficient operating point on the BSFC map of ICE). MG1 rpm is negative (physical rotation has changed from positive split mode.  The control algorithms will operate MG1 as a motor applying torque to slow down ICE.  The traction motor rpm remains constant but may act as a generator to utilize the combined torque of ICE and MG1 or motor if additional torque is required in both cases to maintain speed.

 

As one can see from my graph in a previous post and the linked demo (despite what Redshift continues to say),  the algorithms will switch the physical direction of rotation of the generator extremely quickly via electronics and seamless to the driver for the benefit of operating most efficiently. 

 

https://www.thoughtc...tors-work-85463

 

Motor/Generators

Motor/generators are really one device that can run in two opposite modes. Contrary to what folks sometimes think, that does not mean that the two modes of the motor/generator run backwards from each other (that as a motor the device turns in one direction and as a generator, it turns the opposite direction). The shaft always spins the same way. The "change of direction" is in the flow of electricity. As a motor, it consumes electricity (flows in) to make mechanical power, and as a generator, it consumes mechanical power to produce electricity (flows out).

 


Edited by Redshift, 03 October 2018 - 10:33 AM.


#28 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 11:21 AM

Since there is no reverses gear, the electric motor DOES reverse. It does not reverse when going down the highway. That would put way too much stress on the electric motors. Notice how Ford stresses in the owner's manual to be at a full stop when switching into reverses or you could damage the tranny.

 

As I recall someone posted they that accidentally put the transmission in reverse when it was moving forward and nothing happened.  The logic is smart enough not to actually do what the driver is trying to do.  


Edited by obob, 03 October 2018 - 06:44 PM.


#29 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 12:42 PM

Please redshift, try to understand what happens.  No one said the traction motor reverses going down the highway. The generator motor MG1 will reverse going down the highway in negative split mode from positive split mode.  You clearly do not understand how a planetary gear set works even with my graph of actual data and the animation.  It seems you confuse torque flow from the motors with rpm.  The shafts do not have to always spin the same way.  The shafts can spin either way and act as a motor using electric power or as a generater making electric power no mater what direction the shafts spin.
 
obob is absolutely correct.  Nothing will happen as the algotithms monitor rpm of all rotating devices and will not allow conflicts to happen. Also, I wasted my time trying to validate your statement redshift: " Notice how Ford stresses in the owner's manual to be at a full stop when switching into reverses or you could damage the tranny."   I can't find where Ford says "or you could damage the tranny."  You made something up.  The likely reason you want to be at a full stop is safety oriented because the car will continue to move even though you shifted into R likely in the opposite direction one wants the car to move.
 
I'm done with trying to educate.  Believe what you want to redshift and quit adding misinformation to my posts to make it appear that I said it instead of you.


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 03 October 2018 - 01:49 PM.


#30 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 12:48 PM

I have done this a number of times thinking I was in Drive shifting to Neutral to coast and instead being in Neutral and shifting into Reverse and nothing happens other than you can see who is behind you on the center screen. :)  There is no actual shifting involved with a CMAX CVT trans.

 

Paul


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#31 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 08:38 AM

+3, cut him some slack.  I have good mechanical intuition and it took me a long time to internalize how the planetary gearset works.

 

I've also seen different sources saying that the ICE is connected variously to the Sun gear and the Planetary gears.  I would think that connecting to the Sun gear would make the most sense, but I don't *know*.



#32 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 09:47 AM

+3, cut him some slack.  I have good mechanical intuition and it took me a long time to internalize how the planetary gearset works.

 

I've also seen different sources saying that the ICE is connected variously to the Sun gear and the Planetary gears.  I would think that connecting to the Sun gear would make the most sense, but I don't *know*.

ICE is connected to the planet carrier (which hold the planet gears), generator (MG1) to the sun gear, and traction motor (MG2) to the ring gear. The planetary gears connect to the sun gear and ring gear.  

 

So with ICE off, the planet carrier does not spin and hence remains in a stationary position.  With ICE still off, the traction motor can propell the car ( EV mode) which will spin the ring gear and drive wheels.  The ring gear then spins the planet gears but the carrier remains stationary (ICE off).  The spinning planet gears then spin the sun gear (and generator)  So, ICE would have to spin if connected to the sun gear in EV mode.  ICE would have to spin both forward and backward.   The generator would be on planet carrier which could be allowed to spin with ICE stationary.  But, my guess is that the gearing would be significanly mismatched such that additional gears would be required with ICE on the sun gear and genetator on the planet carrier.  The current arrangement would likely result in a smaller transmission.

 

I have seen hybrid transmission designs that use clutches, a second planetary gear set, more gears that could allow ICE to be connected virtually anywhere.  But the C-Max  transmission is rather simplistic in design (although not intuitive) but requires software control rather than mechanical control to control power / torque / direction of travel. 


Edited by Plus 3 Golfer, 04 October 2018 - 09:06 PM.

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#33 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 12:36 PM

For those that don't understand how a Power Split transmission works go to this link and set the sliders in the animation as I describe below for examples of how positive, negative, EV, reverse, and stationary modes work.   The rpms shown are based on the Prius transmission.  The C-Max rpms will be different but the same principles apply.  Also, this diargam is for rpm only and not torque as the motors can supply positive or negative torque irrespective of rotational direction.

 

Stationary Mode:  vehicle is not moving.   1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to zero mph. 2) move ICE slider up and down. 3) the generator rpm will be positive and the control algorithms will determine whether to charge the HVB by applying the appropriate three phase voltages and frequency to generator (MG1) so that current will flow from the generator to the inverter and then to the HVB.  The rotation of MG1 is deemed positive.

 

Reverse Mode:  vehicle is moving in reverse.  1) set the traction motor slider (MG2) to -10 mph.  2) move ICE slider to zero.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be positive.  The traction motor (MG2) will supply torque to the wheels so the vehicle moves in reverse (negative rpm).

 

EV Mode: ICE is off and vehicle is being propelled by the traction motor (MG2).   1) set ICE to zero rpm.  2) move MG2 slider up and down above zero rpm.  3) the generator rpm (MG1) will be negative.  For the C-Max, the gearing is such that rpm is almost a -1:1 ratio of MG1:MG2 rpm.  The control algorithms will use the energy from the HVB to operate MG2.  

 

Positive Split Mode:   ICE is on and vehicle is moving. HVB being charged.  1)  set ICE rpm slider and traction motor rpm slider (MG2) so that the generator rpm (MG1) is greater than zero.  This is positive split mode where the control algoritms determine how much ICE torque is applied to the generator to charge the HVB.

 

Negative Split Mode:  ICE is on, HVB SOC is high (control algorithms won't allow any more charge), and vehicle cruising at higher speed.  1)  Set MG2 rpm high (say above 65 mph) to simulate that EV mode would not likely be used.  2)  set ICE slider so that MG1 rpm is about zero.   3) now slide ICE rpm lower simulating constant torque but at reduced rpm (more efficient operating point on the BSFC map of ICE). MG1 rpm is negative (physical rotation has changed from positive split mode.  The control algorithms will operate MG1 as a motor applying torque to slow down ICE.  The traction motor rpm remains constant but may act as a generator to utilize the combined torque of ICE and MG1 or motor if additional torque is required in both cases to maintain speed.

 

As one can see from my graph in a previous post and the linked demo (despite what Redshift continues to say),  the algorithms will switch the physical direction of rotation of the generator extremely quickly via electronics and seamless to the driver for the benefit of operating most efficiently. 

 

I really appreciate this post and the included link.  It really takes the mystery out of what is going on.  Thanks.



#34 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:17 PM

...

 

https://www.thoughtc...tors-work-85463

 

Motor/Generators

Motor/generators are really one device that can run in two opposite modes. Contrary to what folks sometimes think, that does not mean that the two modes of the motor/generator run backwards from each other (that as a motor the device turns in one direction and as a generator, it turns the opposite direction). The shaft always spins the same way. The "change of direction" is in the flow of electricity. As a motor, it consumes electricity (flows in) to make mechanical power, and as a generator, it consumes mechanical power to produce electricity (flows out).

 

 

Folks get confused by polarity, and there are two polarities at work here, with all four combinations allowed.

 

The quote above refers to electric polarity: "The shaft always spins the same way." The only way to go from generating to consuming electricity is by changing the direction of current flow: "The 'change of direction' is in the flow of electricity."

 

The quote ignores rotational polarity. The electric polarity above only applies to one direction of rotation. Turn it the opposite way, and you get the opposite direction of current flow, but it remains a motor or a generator. The idea is as simple as hooking up a DC motor the opposite polarity to get it to reverse direction (although these aren't DC motors). 

 

Finally, Plus 3 has done a great job summarizing operational modes, made possible because only 2 of the 3 units are constrained, one by road speed, the other by fuel consumption. That's why the third unit requires a +/- 10,000 RPM operational range.

 

HAve fun,

Frank


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