salman

three comments 1) Mr Debi's description of the California Lemon Law is wrong. Claims are not restricted to the first year and the number of repair attempts required in non-life-threatening cases is generally at least 4. 2) Don't believe me or anyone else. Look up your state's lemon law yourself. Here is the california department of consumer affairs page about the California law: http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon 3) BullDurham's advice about the battery charger stuff is absolutely correct. If you have dead 12 volt problems, get the car towed to the dealer whenever possible and either have the dealer fix the problem or, after enough attempts fail, consider getting a buy back or replacement. (it seems to me the problem can be fixed. It is about 7 months since my current CMax has had a problem. Details on the thread from April and May 2014). But if anyone would rather use battery chargers & jumpers, that's up to you.

Yes, to the wiring harness at the rear hatch, regarding a chaffing problem. I'm surprised this TSB is not about water intrusion in connectors under the front hood, since the SSM notice from early summer or late spring told service departments that a TSB would be out in 3rd quarter about the water intrusion problem.

I would strongly suggest asking the service rep for a detailed description of everything they checked in looking for a power draw and also a description of what the TSB 14-0155 is about (someone will eventually get the TSB details and post them here). In particular, make sure the service techs checked electrical connectors as noted in earlier TSBs and also checked the coolant pump and the ground connection on the Body Control Module (BCM). Last, make sure they contacted the Ford engineers at the Tech Hot Line. If they did not do all those things then they did not do their job, and should do all those things. If they won't, take your car to a different dealer service department (warranty is good at all Ford dealers)

Yes, if you read through the long threads you will find that all the dead 12 volt cases have happened after the car has been parked for many hours, typically overnight, which usually happens to be at home. I cannot think of a single case that happened after being parked for just an hour or two. The take-away from this is that there is a power drain that depletes the battery over several hours, hence a drain that is not too fast (speed of drain is also relevant to the reserve capacity of the battery, which is smaller in the CMax than in standard gas engine cars).

pjurek please explain the details of the settlement in your case. It sounds like ford paid you compensation for all of your time and expenses in dealing with the car. I assume they must have also agreed to buy back your car. And I assume that Ford must be paying your lawyer's bill, which I can only guess must be around $10,000.

The long discussion about the practical difficulty of round-the-clock and weeks-long monitoring of intermittent current draws and testing to find the location of the current draw should be enough to explain why this has been a difficult problem for Ford to track down. Also think about the problems that Ford's recent TSBs and SSM's have described: All the problems with electrical connectors are problems that can be visually checked by opening the connectors and seeing if there has been water intrusion. The coolant pump connectors are like, plus the coolant pump can be heard. Ford mechanics have heard the pump running when it should have been off, and they have seen fouled connectors. Tracing an intermittent parasitic draw is not easy, and is especially devilish if the activated component is not obvious in some way. If it was easy, Ford would have figured it out a year ago. There is no doubt they have been working on it. Posts on the forum tell the story of the engineers working to diagnose re-purchased cars and also working on cars out on the road under warranty, Some of the parts being changed under warranty are not cheap. All of this is important for understanding the magnitude of the problem: 1) the 12 volt syndrome makes a non-trivial minority of CMaxs inoperable on a random basis, 2) the problem is not easy to troubleshoot, 3) Ford has made lemon law buy backs on a bunch of 12 volt cases reported here on the forum and mostly done so without a fight.

The first comment from your dealer matches what has been reported on the forum and also matches what I have seen: batteries were replaced because they had been discharged, and also as a shot in the dark in early 2013 to try to fix the 12 volt problem. The second comment, which I think you are also attributing to the dealer is about batteries that are testing bad. There just are not many reports on this forum about batteries testing bad. Very few. far fewer than reports of dead 12 volt systems (ie drained batteries). I don't see any evidence in reports on the forum that points to a bad batch of batteries.Ford has not issued a TSB about a problem with the CMax battery, only TSBs that address the charging routines and systems that do not shut down (including the faulty connectors that cause systems to awaken or stay awake). I still see no evidence pointing to a battery problem. There is considerable evidence of problems with bad connectors and bad connections (main harness, coolant pump, gear shifter, & BCM module), and evidence that when these things are identified and fixed the dead 12 volt syndrome seems not to re-occur . . . . although only time will tell if these are full and permanent fixes. There is also lots of evidence that some dealer service departments are better than others. Some service departments dive into the problem, keep abreast of the TSBs, and contact the Ford Tech Hotline to discuss the problem with an engineer. Other service departments say that they see no problem and have never heard of 12 volt problems and they won't look for the problem or contact Ford engineers. Bad departments tell the owner it is their fault for outrageous reasons. . Owners on this forum have been told they don't drive the car enough, that there is a minimum number of miles per day or week that must be driven, and other total BS. My original dealer's service manager knew nothing about hybrids, did not know there was a step down converter, would not call Ford's hot line, and did nothing to try to fix the problem. They even lied to me about changing the battery. In Feb or March 2013 I switched to a different dealer service department and they are great.

News to me that a lot of batteries have been bad. I don't think I've heard that before, except as speculation about the cause of the dead 12 volt syndrome in November 2012 through February 2013. That was proven not to be the case, so far as I can tell. It is true that many cars suffering dead 12 volt syndrome have had their batteries changed. That was done for two reasons: first, in the early days, as a blind shot at solving the problem, and second because a battery's ability to take a full charge is diminished when it is run down to a very low charge. The batteries were not changed because of a bad batch of batteries. Bad connections (on the BCM or any electrical connector) can cause a system to activate or stay active when it is supposed to be off.That seems to be the one thing that has been a successful repair so far. Two caveats: 1) so far. Only more time will tell if this has been a real fix, and 2) it can't be a repair until the bad connection is found, and in your case it seems it has not yet been found. Third caveat: yes, in your case it could turn out to be a problem with something other than a connector. If that is ever verified and repaired, please let us all know, for it would be new information.

traveler you might have them check the BCM module for proper connection, esp the ground connection

Yes, there was a TSB about updating the charging routine software to charge more thoroughly. That TSB was from winter 2013, or maybe spring 2013. To the best of my knowledge no dead 12 volt problems were solved by this TSB. The story with the infotainment screen is similar. One of the early TSBs addressed this, but it turned out not to solve anyone's dead 12 volt problem, to the best of my knowledge. FWIW, I've tried to track this issue closely because my first CMAX, purchased in December 2012, started having dead 12 volts days after purchase. I initiated a buy back request in October 2013 and got a new 2014 in March 2014, when a new model identical to my 2013 became available. Then had two dead 12 volt episodes on the 2014. If you know of a case in which the problem was solved by the charge routine update and/or the infotainment update, please post details.

There is pretty clear evidence that the 12 volt problems in the CMax are not due to a problem with the charging routine nor to a problem with the batteries. There is positive evidence that there are problems with electrical connectors (on examination they show water and corrosion), and circumstantial evidence that repairing the connections ends the 12 volt problems (5 months trouble free for me, but time will tell). On the other hand, my Honda Accord has battery problems. I've had to change the battery four times!!! Of course, it is a 1995, but the rest of it seems like it will last forever. Obviously made by people who did not understand the fundamental value of planned obsolescence.

The car most similar to a CMax is a Prius V. It is a little bigger and does not accelerate or maneuver as well as a CMax, but it gets better MPG and the Prius has proven reliability. If you read back in the forum, you will see that when I started the bu back case for my 2013 CMax I was at first certain I would not do a replacement. I thougth I would buy a Prius V. Almost did, but then decided to take my chances with a CMax again because I like driving it and I had found a good dealer service department. Then my new 2014 had two dead 12 volt episodes! Remember, this was after the lemon law buy back for my 2013. Dealer service was great and immediately contact Ford engineers about the dead 12 volt in the 2014. We had already been around the block 7 or 8 times with the 2013 and developed a good relationship. After the second 2014 dead 12 volt episode the coolant pump was changed (May 2014) and no problems since. Would I do it all over again. No. Does every CMAX have dead 12 volt episodes? No, but a non-trivial minority of them do, and the cause seems to be the design of the electrical connectors. I would wait for the fix to be fully proven before buying a CMax. But that's just me. I don't care to tell others what to do. I can only say what I think I would do.

The 2013 and 2014 are essentially the same car, esp when it comes to the things that have contributed to the dead 12 volt problems: same lectronics systems, same wiring connectors, same coolant pump. My 2013 had problems, my 2014 had problems, and when the 2014 was serviced - replacing connectors on the main wiring harness and thn replacing the coolant pump because of its connectors - those repairs were made because the issues had been identified on other CMaxs, both 2013 and 2014. That is what the engineers on the hotline told the service manager and mechanic servicing my car. If the engineer had not encountered the problems before, he would not have recommended those repairs on my car. I have not had a problem with the battery since the pump was replaced in May. If it turns out that bad connectors are the cause (or main main cause) of the dead 12 volt problem, then Ford should have the problem fixed for the 2015. Water tight electrical connectors are (ahem) a mature technology. But time will tell if 1) the connectors are the main culprit, and 2) if Ford fixes them for the 2015 model. Insofar as the bad connectors are concerned, rain, sleet, snow, and car washes can gget water into the connections. The problem is not driving in the rain. The problem is the connectors are not water tight. I looked into reports of battery problems with other hybrids last year. Yes, some priuses have had dead 12 volts after sitting unused for several weeks (main cause is the OEM battery is small and has a low reserve rating, as compared to standard sized batteries. Optima makes a more robust after market battery for the Prius). But I saw nothing with any car that is comparable to the problem with the CMaxes At first, in January 2013, I thought maybe the small size of the CMax battery could be the cause, but that is water under the bridge. It is not the cause. It seems like bad connectors are the main cause. A bigger battery would get drained, too. Would I buy a CMax today? No, I would wait until the 12 volt problem is definitively fixed, which should be for 2015. Has Ford been trying to solve the problem? Absolutely. Has Ford taken responsibility for the problem by buying back or replacing cars when the lemon law is properly invoked? Yes, and without a fight in almost all cases described on the forum. I think Ford is a good company and the CMax is a great idea, but with a significant bug that might be close to being fixed. Time will tell.

most posters here have pursued buy backs on their own, without a lawyer. ford's customer service dept will initiate a buy back review if you ask them. They take basic information over the phone, then send you a packet with forms to fill out, plus you send them a letter narrating the case. Ford does not ask for it, but it is a good idea to send copies of all service documents and copies of all correspondence documenting the problems. buy backs take longer than car exchanges, and my case took longer becuase I waited for the new 2014 models, which did not hit the streets until the end of February. I started my case in late October, I think, and got approval for the buy back/exchange in January - so my case also had a delay from the winter holidays, and then another delay when severe cold weather froze everything in Michigan. Then there were some paperwork screw-ups by the company to which Ford outsources its buy back cases. It may prove the case that BBB is faster, but I would not immediately assume that is why Ford or any manufacturer would mention BBB in its owner manuals.

Now that is pretty interesting. My reaction against BBB was based on thinking things would stall and drag out with the final repair attempt ploy. But once Bull Durham said "no," it seems Ford immediately agreed to do the buy back. Let's see how long the rest of the process takes. In my case, Ford agreed to do the buy back within about two months, I think, but then paperwork dragged out, and I also waited for the 2014 model, and they dragged out making one available. Bull Durham's experience is quicker so far.