How long are these Lithium Ion batteries suppose to last ?

[obob]

How long are these Lithium Ion batteries suppose to last ?

 

And how much will they cost to replace.

 

I suspect they will last more than 8 years or 100,000 miles.

 

I hope that the cost of replacement is not so high that the car becomes worthless.  And replacement batteries are something I would hesitate to get from a off-shore third party manufacturer that could take shortcuts sacrificing safety.

 

And I suspect there will be a period when the batteries are like half as good so my mileage will be not as good.

 

I like my C-Max.  I like not feeling pain when I go to the gas station.  It's one of the nicest small cars for tall people who need headroom.  And it is built from an American manufacturer which is good for me.  But financial savings are less than they might appear when stuff like this is taken in consideration.  

 

I would appreciate info in this respect though I suspect we will know more in a few years. 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

April 25 - These responses were great and alleviated my concern.  I can see there is a lot more to these batteries that I suspected.  This battery setup is obviously different than a laptop where you get your 300 or so charges and get a new one.  Thanks again. 

Edited April 25, 2013 by obob

[Riddley]

I saw a response on that a few weeks ago - I think it was in a marketing video. The response was that the batteries are going to be good for the life of the car. I don't know if that means that they are warranteed for the life of the car, or what exactly.

 

Aside from that, my wife drives a 2005 Escape Hybrid that we purchased new in 2005. She has 160,000 miles on it, and it is 8 years old. So far, no battery issues. While the technology is not Lithium Ion (so it is not an apples-to-apples  analogy) I take comfort in the fact that battery technology has progressed significantly in the last 8 years.

 

Lastly, In thinking about my wife's car. I have recently started to wonder what the symptoms of a failing Hybrid battery would be like. What I concluded was that it would manifest as failure to go into EV mode for any length of time. Other than that, I'm not sure if there would be many other symptoms until absolute battery death.   

[fotomoto]

They are actually warranted to 10 years or 150,000 miles in CARB states.

 

Future costs?  Anyone's guess.  Except for the newer plug in model, the prius uses lower cost NiMH batteries that are costing $2700-3,000 for new packs from Toyota (some dealers charge more, WAY more).  Owners are also buying salvaged batteries out of low miles wrecked units for $4-800 while other DIY'ers are simply replacing the few bad or low performing cells in their failing packs.  Finally there are small companies springing up that are rebuilding/repairing cell packs with warranties that you purchase, return your failed pack to them, and they repair it and sell it to the next customer.

 

To get regular ICE vehicle mileage up, manufactures are resorting to higher and higher speed transmissions.  These are getting so sophisticated that GM and Ford are going to team together to build the next generation 8+ speed transmissions.  What do you think those are going to cost to replace?  

[SnowStorm]

See this article about life.

http://www.eetimes.com/design/automotive-design/4405032/Behind-Ford-s-lithium-ion-decision

I think the left axis is 0 to 120% (saw it somewhere but can't find it now).  This graph shows about 20% loss in capacity after 300,000 miles and Ford believes actual loss will be less.  That small amount of loss isn't going to make a lot of difference in a hybrid.  Of course this isn't a warranty but many drive trains go 3 times their warranty as well.

[asb]

I figured that by the time I need to replace the batteries, the price would have come down significantly due to competition.

[BigRed]

I figured that by the time I need to replace the batteries, the price would have come down significantly due to competition.

Or you will want a new car anyway :)

[asb]

Or you will want a new car anyway :)

 

This could be very true.  But my plan is to have this car until the end of my natural life.  :)

[zhackwyatt]

This could be very true.  But my plan is to have this car until the end of my natural life.   :)

Well that's depressing.

[Adair]

So, just curious....If the lithium ion battery failed........if and when it does..........would the car still be driveable on ICE only?

[fotomoto]

So, just curious....If the lithium ion battery failed........if and when it does..........would the car still be driveable on ICE only?

 

Good question.  It may depend on the software protocols the engineers have put in.  With the Prius, the answer is yes but really only as an emergency measure.  A dramatic drop in mpg's along with the ICE running MUCH more are the typical initial signs followed by the "christmas tree" (dashboard full of warning lights).

 

8-10 years from now when the batt. warranty is finally out, I wonder just how "old tech" our Lithium Ion batts will be?  :headscratch:

[plus 3 golfer]

So, just curious....If the lithium ion battery failed........if and when it does..........would the car still be driveable on ICE only?

The generator is the starter motor for ICE and is powered by the HV battery pack.  So, I doubt ICE can be started, if the HV battery pack is "dead".  In other words, you likely won't be able to disconnect the HV battery from the hybrid system and drive ICE like a normal vehicle since there appears to be no way to start ICE should one not want to spend $$ to replace a failed pack.

 

 

 

 

[charlesd]

What % of the manufacturing cost of the C-Max energi do you think the 7.6 kWh battery is, guys ?

Edited August 16, 2013 by charlesd

[Recumpence]

In my case, I researched the cost of our 1.4kWh pack and found out it was $3,400. Assuming the pack lasts 170,000 miles, at my local gas prices, I will save $20,000 in gas compared with my previous minivan by the time the car reaches that affore mentioned 170,000 miles.

 

Matt

[obob]

In my case, I researched the cost of our 1.4kWh pack and found out it was $3,400. Assuming the pack lasts 170,000 miles, at my local gas prices, I will save $20,000 in gas compared with my previous minivan by the time the car reaches that affore mentioned 170,000 miles.

 

Matt

 

http://www.re-involt.com/

 

FYI, a site that sells remanufactured batteries for older Toyota and Honda hybrids.  

 

"We are the only company that upgrades the HV battery packs to be better than the original factory installed."

 

Prices range from $1875 to $2595 and do not include installation (and probably not shipping).  

[plus 3 golfer]

I doubt most will have to worry about HV battery life if we drive the US average of about 14k miles per year.  Note the expected degradation of the NiMH vs the L-Ion based on Ford's accelerated 10 month Key Life Tests.  Also note that most of the NiMH field test data for the NiMH is above the projected yellow performance line.  

 

Ford's confidence in lithium-ion is based on so-called Key Life Tests. The tests predict that the working capacity (y-axis) of lithium-ion batteries (green line) will be greater over a high-mileage lifetime (x-axis) than that of nickel-metal hydride (yellow line). Past field data for nickel-metal hydride (blue dots) has shown that the testing results are conservative -- that is, batteries generally do better in the field than they do on tests. 
(Source: Ford Motor Co.)

 

From Ford: