My 2c: EV driving

[RaPieR]

It'll usually keep charging the battery at .4 bar until it gets above 50% then it will drop into ev again unless there is an elevation change. You always overide as well.

 

I use it because it's easy. All I have to do is keep an eye on traffic and lights. I find feathering the throttle to tedious. Probably won't hit extremely high mileage but I don't have to mess with the throttle my entire commute.

 

Stay safe SDM.

 

I tried the 2nd eco-cruise run today and it was poor. I finished with 59.5 MPG when I always usually come in >= 62 Avg MPG for the entire day.

 

Jus shows you how fickle the MPGs can get - even whilst using the eco-cruise. Same EXACT route, same temps and time of day. One thing I noticed is that the eco-cruise will drain all the way to the end and then set a 0.4 Bar re-charge beyond the 50% SOC - so this was an extremely slow burn to build the battery but I didn't see the EV kick back in by the eco-cruise because of the traffic light. This could explain why my gas use was higher than the day before, I didn't see this pattern emerging from the eco-cruise.

 

Now I am adament some of you posters swear by this eco-cruise over manual feather - and my question to you: did you notice this 0.4 bar show burn and did it eventually kick back to EV at some point? As I documented for my CMax, the slow burn consumes a lot more gas than the 2 or 1 3/4 bar burns to the same speed limit.

 

Side news: I broke the 700 mile mark- 703.5 miles with 11.31 gallons used. I can hit the 800 but I think the timing is bad as I have to use the car this weekend...but this car is saving me a ton of money for sure :)

[Jus-A-CMax]

It'll usually keep charging the battery at .4 bar until it gets above 50% then it will drop into ev again unless there is an elevation change. You always overide as well.

 

I use it because it's easy. All I have to do is keep an eye on traffic and lights. I find feathering the throttle to tedious. Probably won't hit extremely high mileage but I don't have to mess with the throttle my entire commute.

 

Totally agree with you that its easier :) , but I am so use to it now it more a question of battery management & light timing now. Back to manual run today and I am back in the 79.2 Avg MPG, 1/2 squirt away from breaking the 80s or 1 too many 1/2 bar recharge burn.

 

Did you notice that eco-cruise "stuck on" 0.4 burn recharge? Or do you take it out manually via tapping the brakes et al?

[RaPieR]

Totally agree with you that its easier :) , but I am so use to it now it more a question of battery management & light timing now. Back to manual run today and I am back in the 79.2 Avg MPG, 1/2 squirt away from breaking the 80s or 1 too many 1/2 bar recharge burn.

 

Did you notice that eco-cruise "stuck on" 0.4 burn recharge? Or do you take it out manually via tapping the brakes et al?

Just depends if there is no traffic I let it recharge at whatever eco sets the engine to. I think it is .4 bar if thr road is flat. I'll manually shut off eco to coast if there is traffic ahead or I expect a stop or other delay. On my daily commute I average around +50 to a high of 77 at current summer temperatures.

[stratosurfer]

 

Left side: 1 bar , 2 bar , 3 bar, 4th bar yellow, 5th bar yellow. Red box is typically where you want to keep the power when accelerating in ICE white mode as compared to 1 bar accelerating in EV blue mode.

Jus,

I just got my CMax, and I can't find the screen you displayed here.

I have thumbed around all the menus and not sure where it is?

Mark

[Jus-A-CMax]

Jus,

I just got my CMax, and I can't find the screen you displayed here.

I have thumbed around all the menus and not sure where it is?

Mark

On your steering wheel, use the left side Up or Down arrow to get there. PS there is no red box like in that picture, I drew that on the picture (since people would not know the context of the picture).

[SnitGTS]

SDM, when you are accelerating and there is traffic ahead of you, start off in EV and let the traffic get ahead of you enough before you punch it to 2 bars.  You should get up to speed before you catch up to them assuming there isn't too much traffic.  If you are hitting that many lights one after the other then the 2 bar pulse might not work for those areas, your 1 bar is probably the best bet.

 

I'm not getting the MPG that Jus is, but I have the same basic strategy.  I accelerate to 10-15 mph in EV or until the traffic ahead of me is far enough to give it a 2 bar pulse up to the speed limit + 5 mph, glide in EV as long as I can keep it above the speed limit (or even with traffic) before pulsing again.  On my way to work I have a highway I can pulse up to 55 mph and keep above 50 mph in EV for about 4 miles before having to give it another pulse.  (slight downhill the whole way, I pay for it coming home!)  

 

I also play the hills, some I can accelerate a few extra mph in EV before I get to the hill to just coast over it.  If it is a bigger hill I will give it a good pulse going up, I will try to glide on any plateaus, but if not I just pulse right to where I can coast over the top of the hill.  

 

I was averaging 53.4 mpg for the first half of my last tank of gas, but then I had to run the air for a solid week and I ended up doing a fair amount of highway driving (65 mph+) so my final for the tank was 50.3 mpg, I think I lost 5% of my mpg to the AC.

[Jus-A-CMax]

....you will snitGTS, you will ;)  then you'll be :skateboard:  & :headspin:  with Matt and I :jump_earth:

[ScubaDadMiami]

It has been cloudy, dropping the temps to the low to high 80's, and this has made a very big difference in things.  Where I had been getting around 48 mpg, I got 53+ today over the course of a 12.5 mile drive.  I continue using the combo technique, and this is working out much better for me than always going with a two bar acceleration.

[SnitGTS]

SDM, that's about the difference I see when I have to run the AC versus when I can run without the AC, it is a pretty big swing!  I can't wait to see what it is going to be like with the update, whether we keep more of the mpg's when the AC is on.  Have you gotten the update or scheduled your appointment yet?

 

Another technique I use sometimes when I'm in traffic is what I will call 'stepping', I get up to my 10-15 mph in EV, pulse at 2 bars until I've caught up to the traffic ahead of me, glide in EV until the traffic starts moving again, pulse at 2 bars until I catch up, glide, pulse, etc... until I hit the speed limit + 5 mph.  I don't have any proof one way or another which is the better technique, but I feel like I get a better charge on the battery this way and I'm on the gas less.  

 

Edit:  I just want to be a little more clear if I wasn't before: I'm charging the whole time when stepping!  When I'm on the gas it charges via the engine and when I'm gliding I'm charging via regeneration.  I don't really use EV mode until I'm up to speed.

Edited August 8, 2013 by SnitGTS

[11StiLimited]

Edit:  I just want to be a little more clear if I wasn't before: I'm charging the whole time when stepping!  When I'm on the gas it charges via the engine and when I'm gliding I'm charging via regeneration.  I don't really use EV mode until I'm up to speed.

Excellent point to mention :happy feet:

[Arthur]

My mileage was all in the 30's until I reached 10k, then it blossomed, getting over 47 on most all trips now. and it's easier to do the light foot dance. 

[MI C-max]

I've been wondering how some of you "mega-milers" have been getting that kind of performance out of your C-maxes.  I can see from this thread some of the "mistakes" I've been making and I will definitely try to incorporate these tips to bring my MPG avg up.  I think I've been doing pretty good so far, but I really want to put some Prius owners I know in their place ...  :nonono:  Both of them have already admitted that my C-max rides, feels, is nicer on the inside and handles better than their Prii ( :worship:), now I need to show them that it can outperform them too  :superhero:

 

Near where I live, I have 2 different roads that run parallel to the River Raisin (North and South Custer).  South Custer is 55 MPH, North Custer is 45 MPH, then 35 MPH, then 30 MPH along the same stretch of the river.  I have already switched to driving North Custer as often as possible, because I can see the difference in MPG avg when I do.

 

The thing I really need help with is highway driving.  I spend a lot of time during the week on highways - either going to the Ford Engineering campus in Dearborn, or Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills.  Highway speeds in SE Michigan are 70MPH, and our freeways were built a long time ago, so they usually go over or under the roads they cross.  They were not built with fuel efficiency in mind, like many in the SW and West Coast are.  I can see that even short runs on the highway are costing me big in avg MPG.  I try keeping it between 65 to 68 MPH - looking to get the best MPG out of the ICE while cruising along.  I'm going to try to keep off of the ECO Guide cruise control for the next few days to see if I can nurse the highway MPG to some better performance.  (I've got 150 miles one way headed to a concert tonight, time to try some of this out while on the freeway tonight).

 

This is a GREAT thread - I'm glad I stumbled upon it this morning!

[tehuti]

You will probably do better by feathering but it is too much concentration and effort for me to do everyday that early in the morning hehe. It gets the job done. I can pulse ip if I need to and turn cruise off if I need to coast. It has to go hand in hand with looking ahead and timing lights/traffic

I agree with RaPieR. In my morning traffic I have a stretch of freeway where I can get up to about 65-70 and kick in EcoCruise and it works well. Trying to feather the pedal and keep it at 1 bar takes too much concentration when you are in morning traffic.

[tehuti]

My mileage was all in the 30's until I reached 10k, then it blossomed, getting over 47 on most all trips now. and it's easier to do the light foot dance. 

I am slowly approaching 40 at just over 1,000 miles. I do the best on my morning and evening freeway commutes, generally 40 or so to work and 42 to 48 on the way home. Even better if I take the freeway all the way rather than doing about 60/40 - freeway/streets.

[C-MaxSea]

I've been wondering how some of you "mega-milers" have been getting that kind of performance out of your C-maxes.  I can see from this thread some of the "mistakes" I've been making and I will definitely try to incorporate these tips to bring my MPG avg up.  I think I've been doing pretty good so far, but I really want to put some Prius owners I know in their place ...  :nonono:  Both of them have already admitted that my C-max rides, feels, is nicer on the inside and handles better than their Prii ( :worship:), now I need to show them that it can outperform them too  :superhero:

 

Near where I live, I have 2 different roads that run parallel to the River Raisin (North and South Custer).  South Custer is 55 MPH, North Custer is 45 MPH, then 35 MPH, then 30 MPH along the same stretch of the river.  I have already switched to driving North Custer as often as possible, because I can see the difference in MPG avg when I do.

 

The thing I really need help with is highway driving.  I spend a lot of time during the week on highways - either going to the Ford Engineering campus in Dearborn, or Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills.  Highway speeds in SE Michigan are 70MPH, and our freeways were built a long time ago, so they usually go over or under the roads they cross.  They were not built with fuel efficiency in mind, like many in the SW and West Coast are.  I can see that even short runs on the highway are costing me big in avg MPG.  I try keeping it between 65 to 68 MPH - looking to get the best MPG out of the ICE while cruising along.  I'm going to try to keep off of the ECO Guide cruise control for the next few days to see if I can nurse the highway MPG to some better performance.  (I've got 150 miles one way headed to a concert tonight, time to try some of this out while on the freeway tonight).

 

This is a GREAT thread - I'm glad I stumbled upon it this morning!

 

Go MI C-max!!!  Glad to see you have already boxed the ears of those sillymobiles called Prii.  I can't stop laughing when I see their dashes.  I am certain you will have success with the MPG, if not greater than, at least equal to.  Either of the Custer roads should work fine, giving you 50+s in time.  I will defer to the experts on flyway tips - so far we have just ecocruised at 58 to 65.  Best of luck!   Nick

Edited August 28, 2013 by C-MaxSeattle

[Jus-A-CMax]

MI CMax - take 1 run with eco-cruise and "blip" it into ICE High MPG, take 1 run with P&G. Compare. Crest over hills in EV if possible (right lane) other than that, P&G is your friend. No HVAC and keep the battery high (read up my review in my sig).

[ScubaDadMiami]

so far we have just ecocruised at 58 to 65.  Best of luck!   Nick

Same goes here . . . for now.  Departing for Maxie's first big road trip next Thursday.  Heading to the mountains of western North Carolina.  So, I suspect that I will know a thing or two about highway and mountain driving pretty soon!  :kookie:

[MI C-max]

SUCCESS!!

 

Started out the trip last night with an avg MPG of 42.6, pulled back in the driveway with an avg MPG of 43.2 (165 miles roundtrip, about 20 of which were surface streets, the rest was I75 from Monroe MI to Clarkston MI)!  That's an increase of 0.6 MPG, and that is the first time I have ever hit the highway (any distance) and had an increase in avg MPG.  Here's how I tackled it -

 

Surface streets - followed Jus-A-Cmax guidelines from page 1 of this thread.  EV up to 15 MPH, kicked in the ICE up to +3MPH over speed limit, dropped off the pedal, let EV kick in, then feathered it to 1 blue tick on the EMPOWER gauge.  I was amazed how much further I went on EV when feathering it like this, as compared to letting the ECO Cruise make all the decisions.

 

Highway - took it up to 65MPH, then kicked in the ECO Cruise.  Let the EV mode do it's thing until it dropped back to ICE.  Then I would feather it up to 2 white ticks on the gauge, until I reached around 68MPH, then dropped off the pedal, let EV mode kick in and let ECO Cruise do it's thing until the ICE kicked back in again.  I know that's a somewhat inefficient use of the EV, but trying to deal with Metro Detroit traffic on a highway in and near rush hour, requires a little more concentration so I couldn't watch the EMPOWER gauges like a hawk.  Again, I was pleasantly surprised to see how far I could go in EV while on the highway.

 

Trip MPG was reported as 48.6MPG on the way up to the concert,  44.8MPG on the way back.  Those are the highest numbers I've seen while driving up and down I-75 through Metro Detroit.

 

Observations - 

1) I noticed that driving like I was, allowed me to NOT be an obstacle on the roads - both surface and highway.  For the first time, I didn't notice a lot of people behind me losing their shi# because they thought I was driving too slow.  The acceleration on EV from 0 - 15MPH is sufficient to get going, and keep up with traffic.  Above 15MPH during acceleration in EV requires a LOT of artful feathering and seriously slow driving - thus causing a lot of people freaking out in the rearview.

 

2) The undulations in the highway in the northern suburbs of Detroit didn't leave much room for bumping it up to 2 white ticks to get +3MPH above the ECO Cruise set point.  BUT ... because the uphills were using the ICE to 2 white ticks, the downhills on the other side let it roll along in EV for a lot longer.  In the northern suburbs (Auburn Hills, Clarkston) I just had to sit back and let the ECO Cruise do the work.  The southern suburbs (Taylor, Woodhaven) are flatter, so there was more opportunity to manually bump the ICE up to 2 white ticks to +3MPH then back off and let the EV kick in.

 

3) Driving for better Hybrid MPG is probably foreign to a lot of people.  I have been driving for 30 years, and this is the first Hybrid I've owned, so I really do need to learn how to drive it.  This thread should somehow be mandatory reading for new members!  

 

4) I thought of an analogy for the EV battery drain while driving - letting the ECO Cruise, or even manually driving in EV mode, with the EMPOWER gauges pegged to maximum blue ticks, is like filling up your tank with gas, and driving around at 6000RPM no matter what speed you're driving.  Sure it will get you where you want to go, but it's also going to quickly drain your fuel tank!  The draining of the battery in EV seems to be logarithmic - the more blue ticks you use, the faster it drains.  

 

5) Since we were driving home after midnight last night, and there was no one on the surface streets in Monroe at that time, I was kind of playing around with "pulsing" the EV - take it up to 1 blue tick, back off and let it drop to 0, gradually take it up to 1/2 blue tick, back off let if drop to 0, repeat between 0 and 1/2 blue tick - since there were small distances with 0 battery usage, I seemed to go further than I thought I would.  I only managed that on a very short straightaway (maybe 2 miles) before I needed to turn, I obviously don't have a lot of data / experience with the "pulsing" method.   But definitely something else to tryout while I'm driving.

 

I definitely think I am headed in the right direction now.  There is still more to work on, but I am very happy with last night's progress.  I'm now hopeful I'll be joining that 600+ Mile Club soon!

Edited August 29, 2013 by MI C-max

[Jus-A-CMax]

Cool...glad I made someone's day. Great start and it only gets better when all of this becomes second nature. The only thing I stay true and firm is 0-15 mph in EV on city street - this one saves a TON OF GAS and then everything else is a "nice to have" and traffic permitting. Remember this MPG thing is a game so don't p*ss off the rear drivers who don't want to be effected by your game.

 

:)

[MI C-max]

Jus - I agree that 0-15MPH in EV is HUGE!  The energy required to get these heavy vehicles to start moving from rest is a lot - better to do it under EV mode, than to burn gasoline to do it.  Once it's in motion, the energy requirements aren't as drastic.

 

Driving around town today the avg MPG is getting better too.  I just dropped my daughter off at the X's house, averaged 48.6 down there using some rural (rather bumpy) roads.  Took the smoother 4 lane blacktop back into town to go to the store and averaged 55.7, then hit a 62.3 to the Post Office (over half of that ride was 25MPH though), then a 49.0 back home (along the higher speed limited South Custer).

 

Gased up while I was out - and just noticed that Fuelly is saying the average went up 0.4MPG - NICE!  This is only the 3rd time in about 10 days I've had to fuel up - I'm not used to this!  The 2012 Escape (or as she's now referred to - "The Bloated Pig") used to have to be gassed up about every other day.  Over the 1100 miles covered by those 3 fill ups, WATTSon only consumed 25.3 gallons of gas.  The Bloated Pig would have consumed 50 gallons of gas to cover that same distance.  

 

BTW ... does anyone want to buy a really nice 2012 Ford Escape?? 

[ScubaDadMiami]

Great post, MI!  I may just try your tick up from highway cruise control method.  It may help to get a good feel for highway feathering.  I'll try it as a sort of training wheels.  If I get the hang, I'll try going fully manual.

 

Great idea for a training tool!  :)

[11StiLimited]

Great post, MI!  I may just try your tick up from highway cruise control method.  It may help to get a good feel for highway feathering.  I'll try it as a sort of training wheels.  If I get the hang, I'll try going fully manual.

 

Great idea for a training tool!  :)

It's amusing to me that you use the term "full manual".  I have been thinking for a couple weeks now that the major differences in opinion on here regarding Eco-Cruise boils down to one simple thing: driving an automatic like a stick shift.  I have been driving stick for the last decade and coming back to an automatic killed me.  I just drove this car like I did any automatic I found myself in.  Hit the car, wait for the transmission to catch up, grab a bursts of speed, then drop off throttle to bring back down the RPM's and gears.

 

That being said, I have discovered several nuances to driving automatics with CVT's.  With a CVT, you can listen to the engine noises to determine a rough idea of RPM's at a given load, giving you a better chance at "feathering" the throttle. To the people who are too lazy to do it, I would suspect that it is a matter of habit for you NOT to do it.  It is not hard to do and is a requirement in manual transmissions.  To those who may have disabilities, or otherwise sore limbs or joints, I understand why Eco-Cruise not only works for you, but makes the drive more comfortable for you.  MPG's aren't everything, especially when you get as much car as this for the $$ and get respectable MPG's not matter how you drive.

 

That also being said, I had a chance to drive about 50 miles in an under-powered 5-speed manual.  I loved the whole trip.  Having the throttle and RPM control provided in a manual definitely is still better than our CVT's, for driving enjoyment.  My overall sense of control provided only by the transmission simply can't compete.  MPG wise, I dogged the hell out of his car and still got about 31mpg on the highway in a 2008 Saturn Astra.

 

I wonder how the C-max would do, if I put it through the same beating for one trip, lol?  Would the high use of ICE in aggressive driving situation destroy the mpg to 31, or less?  Maybe I will try it out after this tank.  Make the run and back, then just fill up again.  After all, what is one 50 mile trip in the 100k+ scheme of things?

[jeffkruse]

I just don’t understand.  I am planning on getting a C-MAX so I have been reading this forum and all kinds of other stuff on how the Prius and C-MAX work.  I am an Electrical Engineer so I like this kind of stuff but what I have been reading just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

Work is work so I don’t understand how 0-15MPH in EV is most efficient.  Since these are not plug-ins the energy has to come from the ICE at some point.  

 

I have read this thread and still don’t understand what the best way to drive this car is.  It seems people are trying to drive in EV mode as long as they can.  Doesn’t the ICE have to charge the battery back up?  This would make me think the losses of creating the electricity, storing it, then using it again would be so much more than just driving from ICE.

 

I thought there were a few reasons why hybrids are more efficient.  The main one was that the ICE could run at its most efficient RPM while creating electricity.  I also thought that the ICE could be much smaller because the battery would act as a buffer for peak demand.  But reading how people are driving it makes me question how this thing really works.

 

Kind of related is that I would like to see an electric vehicle that could charge its self with a very small generator like a Honda EU2000i.  You could have a very small gas tank and have the option turning the generator on during your long trip and keep it on when you stop for lunch.  My thought is that the generator couldn’t power the car but would greatly extend its range.

[fbov]

Jeff,

My background is Physics, so I see the system's energy balance a little differently. My mental model looks like this:

 

 

Chemical energy is gasoline, one-way transfer to either battery or drive wheels

Electrical energy is battery charge, one-way charge from ICE or two-way charge/discharge to drive wheels

Potential energy is gravitational - being on top of a hill - so you store or use this energy based on terrain.

Of course, Kinetic energy is motion...

 

Reduced fuel consumption comes from only using the ICE in a very efficient mode, as measured by "brake specific fuel consuption" (BSFC) mapping. BSFC maps show contours of equal fuel consumption on a specific torque vs. RPM axes. Most ICE's are most efficient at low RPM (low pumping loss) and high load (so open throttle).

(This link has a lot of data in the attachment to the first post, and it's an interesting read.)

 

Hybrid are efficient to the degree that they allow the ICE to operate infrequently but efficiently, and store/use the excess energy efficiently. Minimum fuel consumption is achieved by only running the ICE in BSFC region of maximum efficiency. The control system sets RPM, the driver set the load by selecting a throttle position and terrain (road choice).

 

To your specifc question, motion (kinetic energy) is proportional to speed^2 (speed squared).

- accelerating to 0-15 MPH requires 1/4 the energy of accelerating 0-30 MPH.

- accelerating to 15 MPH doesn't put enough load on the ICE to reach the minimal BSFC operating region

- accelerating from 15-30 requires 3x the energy of 0-15

- the higher load pushes the ICE closer to the BSFC minima, increasing ICE efficiency

 

The gist of the hypermiling advice is to run the ICE as little as possible, and then with the highest load achievable without discharging the battery, to minimize fuel consuption. Make sense now?

 

As to the big-motor/small ICE approach, I see it as an issue of torque - ICE has lots more than any comparable EV. I find myself using ICE to get moving (see above) and to climb hills (see attachement). I'd need a larger battery and traction motor to achieve the same drive wheel torque, which is doable (Tesla) at a price. The current ICE/EV balance is likely a result of practical tradeoffs. The link talks a little about the ICE size range found in the hybrid market today - 1.5l to 2.0 for Prii and Ford.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ceemax71]

Very good posts in this thread.

 

This is from Ford tech service regarding hybrid driving philosophy:

 

The Hybrid is optimized to run the engine during acceleration from a stop, and to stop

the engine during moderate speed cruising and during deceleration.

 

Trying to accelerate the vehicle slowly in EV mode tends to drain the HVTB (high

Voltage Traction Battery) which forces the engine to run during cruise, lowering fuel

economy.