Mileage and Build date for eCVT that have failed

[alanstri]

Were you able to get a hold of our FORD REP? :drop:

 

Paul 

 

I received an email today from Ford customer service manager Leah Shulga (still no "reply within 4 hours as her voice mail said) stating:

 

"I have reviewed your case with the Service Manager, John, at Lou Fusz. It was determined that the transmission failure occurred due to improper flat towing. The dealer has reached out to Ford’s technical division on your behalf to assist in the case. Ford warranty covers manufacturer defects under the coverage period timeframe. The dealership determines coverage under Ford warranty. The current concern was deemed as damage rather than a manufacturer defect, in which case, it is not covered."

 

Nobody has told me what I did that was "improper flat towing".  The manual instructions have been followed.  She suggested that I get a second opinion from another Ford dealer who might perform the repairs under warranty. HUH???

 

Now the dealer is the final arbiter of warranty claims!!!  I don't know what recourse I have now, other than being told to pound sand...

 

If a Ford rep is on this forum, I would appreciate a little guidance.

[HotPotato]

I'm at 53k-ish now. The rubbing/grinding noise is still there, a little louder now, and it has been joined by a loud, whiny, wavery arrrrrrrrr noise. The grinding occurs when the car is moving. The whiny arrrr is loudest by far when the ICE is on (otherwise it can't be heard when stopped). Pop the hood with the ICE on and the whine seems to be coming from somewhere beneath the inverter. 

 

People whose transmissions have failed, please tell me:

1. Are these sounds anything like what you heard when your trans went?

2. What else might these sounds be if not the trans? 

3. What had to happen before your dealer would actually do something about it?

 

The whine is so loud and obnoxious that it turns heads on the street, but apparently that's still too quiet for my dealer's mechanics to make an effort. Something tells me the used-car manager would find the noises plenty loud enough to refuse my trade on grounds of mechanical issues; perhaps I should try that tactic.

 

Fuel economy seems to be taking a bit of a dip, but it's hard to know if that's related, with the lifetime average dropping from 38.1 to 37.7 in the time the whine has been audible.

Edited September 1, 2016 by HotPotato

[stevedebi]

I'm at 53k-ish now. The rubbing/grinding noise is still there, a little louder now, and it has been joined by a loud, whiny, wavery arrrrrrrrr noise. The grinding occurs when the car is moving. The whiny arrrr is loudest by far when the ICE is on (otherwise it can't be heard when stopped). Pop the hood with the ICE on and the whine seems to be coming from somewhere beneath the inverter. 

 

People whose transmissions have failed, please tell me:

1. Are these sounds anything like what you heard when your trans went?

2. What else might these sounds be if not the trans? 

3. What had to happen before your dealer would actually do something about it?

 

The whine is so loud and obnoxious that it turns heads on the street, but apparently that's still too quiet for my dealer's mechanics to make an effort. Something tells me the used-car manager would find the noises plenty loud enough to refuse my trade on grounds of mechanical issues; perhaps I should try that tactic.

 

Fuel economy seems to be taking a bit of a dip, but it's hard to know if that's related, with the lifetime average dropping from 38.1 to 37.7 in the time the whine has been audible.

The A/C sound is about right from my experience. This is the loudest A/C Compressor and fan I've ever heard.

[Bill-N]

The A/C sound is about right from my experience. This is the loudest A/C Compressor and fan I've ever heard.

 

Indeed.  I'd describe the sound the scroll compressor makes as a clatter.  There is/was a link to a you tube video that had the loud sound recorded; useful for comparison.

 

In my case, the transmission sound was like that of a rolling tin can with gravel in it.  It wasn't particularly loud, but was obvious when the car was moving slowly (walking speed) with the engine off.

[HotPotato]

Mine has the loud obnoxious AC compressor too, and the not-very-loud coffee-can-of-rocks grind, but this new noise is more of an arrrwarrrr, waaaaarrrrrrr type sound varying with engine speed.

Edited September 2, 2016 by HotPotato

[RobMax]

Fuel economy seems to be taking a bit of a dip, but it's hard to know if that's related, with the lifetime average dropping from 38.1 to 37.7 in the time the whine has been audible.

 

Curious why your MPG is so low. My wife is a horrible hybrid "digital" driver (either she's hard on the gas, or hard on the brakes) and still gets 41 MPG. I'm much better and up till recently was getting over 47 MPG.

 

And to update the thread in general, I bought my used 2013 (born on 24.01.2013 according to ETIS) in March of this year with 45k on it and an extended Ford CPO warranty, LUCKILY!!

 

It now has 55k and just started having a continuous gear-like grinding noise while moving in reverse (and especially when hitting the brakes), combined with more of a loud humming and squeaking / chirping noise at all forward speeds. I popped the hood while my son drove slowly and I could see the entire drivetrain rock back to front in the cradle every time the gear-like grinding noise occurred. The noises are definitely coming from the transmission area on the driver side.

 

Also should mention that from the time I purchased it it's had what I consider a pretty harsh throttle tip-in problem (aka when you initially just "breath on" and depress the gas pedal), where the car actually has a noticeable lurch of power from dead stop to anything up to 20mph or so (due to amount of torque being applied I'm guessing) whenever the gas pedal is depressed even slightly, while on battery or ICE. It's not exactly a head-snapping jolt, but it's noticeable enough where my wife, who has a 2014 C-Max Hybrid (that has never had these problems), noticed a big difference in how they both drive and commented on it. And she never pays attention to things like that. Almost has the same effect when letting off the gas pedal, as the car initially slows noticeably quicker than my wife's car though coasts fine. I'm betting it's all related, and I'm very glad I have the CPO warranty at this point.

 

Mileage has also dropped over 5% in the last few days, obviously from increased internal component drag. 

 

I just dropped it at the dealer and will update when they diagnose, but I can almost guarantee it's the hybrid CVT going bad. 

 

I also have had an unrelated, but annoyingly loud whirring / grinding noise in the front passenger side of the engine compartment (near front bumper) only when I initially turn the A/C on. If the interior fan is on there's no noise up front, but hit the A/C button and that A/C componentry up front starts making a noticeable racket from quite a few feet away for a couple to few minutes till it all sounds normal again. A/C operation is unaffected and works well. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by RobMax

[ptjones]

Interesting that I didn't notice any real change in FE(actually it looked like I was getting better) when my Trans was bad. :headscratch: And it didn't improve when I got the new Trans. :)

 

Paul

[RobMax]

Interesting that I didn't notice any real change in FE(actually it looked like I was getting better) when my Trans was bad. :headscratch: And it didn't improve when I got the new Trans. :)

 

Paul

 

Well I did fill the gas tank a couple days before I started hearing the noises, so we might be able to blame it on winter gas blends in CA, depending on when they come out. Prior to that fill up I hadn't gotten gas in at least 3 weeks due to reduced commuting. Weather hasn't really been much different so I'd say it's either the gas or the tranny. I'd still think it's the tranny because of how the car feels lately. 

[RobMax]

Quick update:

Took the 2013 into the dealership where they promptly diagnosed the same problem many others described with the same grinding, humming, and chirping noises from the tranny. They said it's okay to drive, as it won't ruin things anymore than they already are, but scheduled me to bring it back in when their CVT tranny tech has completed work on the two other 2013s (Fusion Hybrids in this case) he's replacing the trannys on. Apparently a very common problem with 2013s, as the service advisor seemed to be well aware of the issue. 

 

He said the repair will take a few days because the entire engine, tranny, drive motor assembly has to be removed as a unit, then everything bad replaced before they can put it all back together and put it back in. Sounds like a huge pain, but hopefully that resolves it till after my CPO warranty runs out.

[ptjones]

This is what it looks like out of the car. :)

 

Paul

[djc]

 

This is what it looks like out of the car. :)

 

 

Paul

 

 

That is a very clean power train in a very clean garage.

[ptjones]

RICH FORD Alberquerque, NM

 

Paul

[HotPotato]

IT'S BACK! Dropped off the car 10/20/16, got it back 11/4/16 with a new transmission.

 

Only problem is a rubbing when making a sharp left turn at low speed. I suspect the tech left some sort of underbody shroud incompletely attached or the like, but I can't see anything under there. Back to the dealer I go, I s'pose.

 

It's amazing we got to this point. Here's the back story!

 

Many times in the last year I tried to get the dealer to diagnose and fix the grinding and rubbing noises, but they blew me off every time with increasingly lame excuses per below---all of them despite attaching the TSB:

• "They all do that." No they don't.
• "It didn't make any noise on the lift." Right, since I told you the noise happens when in gear and moving. 
• And even after the second noise joined the party--the one that happened even in neutral: "We couldn't diagnose it because the engine keeps turning off." It's a hybrid, they do that; just floor the gas to restart it.
• And finally "Yeah, I can sure hear it but I guess the mechanic couldn't; next time make him take a ride with you." Really, they don't drive a car to diagnose a problem that happens while driving? Shouldn't you have mentioned this when I dropped it off? Oh, and: "You might just want to trade it; a transmission repair would take a while, and you won't get a loaner."

.

I called Ford Customer Care on 10/4/16 and asked for two things: that they have a hybrid specialist call the dealer and explain the TSB before I took it in again, and that they provide me a rental since I'd wasted enough days already. The guy was really nice. He confirmed that the TSB applied given the symptoms and build date, and gave me the name and number of a customer service person and told me she'd call me the next day.

 

She didn't. Or any other day over the next two weeks, though I called and left messages every couple of days. All I got was a disjointed text message. So I called the main customer care line again and asked to have my case reassigned to someone else. "Can't do that," said a different and not so nice guy, "she's the regional customer service manager. Is the car at the shop now?" No, because I wanted you guys to speak to them fir--- "Car needs to be at the shop." OK, I'll take it there right away, please let me speak to my contact person first so she can let them know it's coming. "She may not pick up, but I'll try."

 

Interminable hold ensues, and then my customer service person picks up the line. "We're getting this sorted for you right now. When you get to the dealer, ask for the service manager, his name is X, and he'll be waiting for you, and a rental will be waiting for you as well." Great, thank you!

 

Left immediately, went to the dealer, asked to speak to the service manager as directed. "He just left." He what? Is he coming back? "Don't know, he didn't say." So I explain to the new guy and ask to have a mechanic ride with me. "I'm getting our master mechanic over here. Make the noise happen. We can't fix it for you if you don't make it happen." Eventually the mechanic comes over and gets in the car, and I take him on a nice long test drive to get an earful of all the sounds. He says nothing at all. We pull back in to the dealer, Mr. Strong Silent Type gets out silently, and my rental car is waiting. Joy!

 

About two weeks go by with no update from the dealer. Finally I go down there and see the car on the lift. Mr. Not-The-Service-Manager greets me. "Should be ready for you tomorrow." Great! What did they do? *looks at me like I'm an idiot* "Put a new tranny in."

 

And here we are. It was so lovely to drive the C-Max again...unlike my rental Chrysler 200, it doesn't tremble like an earthquake at idle. And now it doesn't make horrifying noises either! Well, except that left-turn thing...hopefully it will do that for the dealer.

 

Ford: the cars you love to drive and hate to own.

Edited November 5, 2016 by HotPotato

[plus 3 golfer]

Hot Potato, you first reported an issue in August 2015 at 39 k miles.  In August 2016 you were at 53 k Miles.  Did the noises get worse over time and thus easier to be "heard" by the dealer?   So, apparently it took over 14 k miles before the dealer agreed that there was a "noise" and that the TSB applied.  Why did it take 2 weeks to fix?  Was your car not drivable for 2 weeks until the new transmission came in?  It seems that once the diagnosis was made (that it needs new tranny), you could have driven it for an additional 2 weeks or so until the new tranny came in.  

 

I've got 75 k miles on my car and began hearing noises recently that I don't recall hearing about 5-7 k miles ago (4 - 5 months ago).  The noises are best described as small rocks rotating in a can (grinding) and a slight whirring / humming noise both when moving.  I will be putting on about 6 k miles between now and the end of the year.  I have a feeling that if I took my car to the dealer now, the dealer would say "they all do that".  So, by the first of the year, I should have over 11 k miles on since I began hearing the noises and about 81 k miles total on my car.  If the noises are worse in Jan. 2017 than now, I will make the trip to the dealer and follow your advice insisting the SA (and Tech) go for a drive with me.

[ptjones]

My experience was very good at RICH FORD in Albuquerque, NM, They had already replaced two Trans's so they had experience in checking and doing the job. Got free rental Explorer for two weeks, probably puck 4k mi. on it. :) I got Lucky they were wright along the I-40 FWY.  If I knew I was going to have a trans problem I would look for a dealer that has alot of experience replacing trans's to get the best job done. IMO :)

 

Paul

[obob]

I wonder if there is a point on the trans where the progression could be monitored, easily heard through a long screwdriver or microphone of some kind, while jacked up with the wheels engaged.

 

( The long screwdriver works by putting the metal end on the trans in different places and putting my ear to the other end.  It worked well for me on my last vechicle's trans that was bad. )

[ptjones]

For me I heard the change in sound so that wasn't a problem, but I noticed a temperature change about 5k mi. earlier.  Dealers won't change Trans on temp change. :sad:  But it will give you idea that you are going to have a problem in the near future.

 

Paul

[HotPotato]

Update: the loud grinding during left turns was (as I realized upon turning off the radio) also accompanied by a soft whomp whomp from the right front wheel, increasing with speed to an outright knock at freeway speed. Took it to dealer today and it needs a new front wheel bearing; luckily I should squeak in before the powertrain warranty ends. Kind of wondering why they didn't notice this during the test drive after the trans install, but all's well that hopefully ends well.

[ptjones]

Update: the loud grinding during left turns was (as I realized upon turning off the radio) also accompanied by a soft whomp whomp from the right front wheel, increasing with speed to an outright knock at freeway speed. Took it to dealer today and it needs a new front wheel bearing; luckily I should squeak in before the powertrain warranty ends. Kind of wondering why they didn't notice this during the test drive after the trans install, but all's well that hopefully ends well.

They only fix what the customer complains about. :drop:  Most of the service people  have never driven a CMAX. :sos: LOL

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I wonder if there is a point on the trans where the progression could be monitored, easily heard through a long screwdriver or microphone of some kind, while jacked up with the wheels engaged.

 

( The long screwdriver works by putting the metal end on the trans in different places and putting my ear to the other end.  It worked well for me on my last vechicle's trans that was bad. )

 

I believe the front wheels need to be turning (traction motor, differential, transfer shaft and gears, and ring gear must be spinning) as the issue is a bearing on the transfer shaft (see quote below as this is all I can find on 14B07). So, it would be hard to put a long screwdriver on the tranny when the car is moving. :)   But, the screwdriver trick or any long bar, pipe does work in listening to engine noises.

 

 

BTW, I can only hear those noises I mentioned a few posts ago with the driver's window down and at low speeds with ICE off.  At higher speeds or with ICE on there's too much wind / engine noise.  So, when in EV+ with window down and say less than 15 mph, the noises are barely audible.  For those that have had their tranny replaced, are the noises audible with the windows closed and coasting at high, medium, and low speeds?  

 

I also continue to monitor transmission fluid temperature and it appears normal although I'd probably not notice a 5 / 10 F increase in TFT since I don't have any comparable data saved.  TFT seems to run at least 30F+ lower than ECT under normal driving.  Excessive regeneration when going down steep hills can cause TFT to be higher and ECT lower and thus the 30 F differential doesn't always hold.

 

 The problem: The transfer shaft assembly bearing may fail prematurely. If this happens, thumping, rubbing or grinding noises may emanate from the transmission. Additionally, the check-engine light may illuminate due to a manufacturing fault in the transmission.

Vehicles affected by service bulletin:

• 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid
• 2014 Ford Fusion Hybrid
• 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid
• 2014 Ford C-Max Hybrid

 

[HotPotato]

Hot Potato, you first reported an issue in August 2015 at 39 k miles.  In August 2016 you were at 53 k Miles.  Did the noises get worse over time and thus easier to be "heard" by the dealer?   So, apparently it took over 14 k miles before the dealer agreed that there was a "noise" and that the TSB applied.  Why did it take 2 weeks to fix?  Was your car not drivable for 2 weeks until the new transmission came in?  It seems that once the diagnosis was made (that it needs new tranny), you could have driven it for an additional 2 weeks or so until the new tranny came in.  

 

I've got 75 k miles on my car and began hearing noises recently that I don't recall hearing about 5-7 k miles ago (4 - 5 months ago).  The noises are best described as small rocks rotating in a can (grinding) and a slight whirring / humming noise both when moving.  I will be putting on about 6 k miles between now and the end of the year.  I have a feeling that if I took my car to the dealer now, the dealer would say "they all do that".  So, by the first of the year, I should have over 11 k miles on since I began hearing the noises and about 81 k miles total on my car.  If the noises are worse in Jan. 2017 than now, I will make the trip to the dealer and follow your advice insisting the SA (and Tech) go for a drive with me.

 

I'm not sure what eventually made the dealer act: the fact the noise had grown loud enough to scare children on the sidewalk, or the fact I decided to sic Cujo -- er, Ford corporate on them. The first should get action for you, and if it doesn't, there's always the second. But your strategy of waiting til the volume is undeniable and having the tech ride with you is a good one.

 

If your dealer is like mine, they will take the transmission apart to look at the bearings and verify it is the source of the problem. No point in putting a bad trans back together and putting it back in, especially if Ford is renting the customer a car in the meantime.

[HotPotato]

Got the car back. Yes, those remaining grind and whomp sounds were due to a faulty wheel bearing, which they fixed almost immediately. The technician was the same one who had done the trans, and he was a little embarrassed to have missed it, since the original repair order basically just said to find and repair any grinding or whomping noises. All's well that ends well.  

 

That left just one unwanted noise: the creaky noise from the door frames. So I finally went to the auto parts store and bought silicone spray, and tried blasting the door weatherstripping with it. Miracle of miracles, the creaking is 99% gone! Wish I'd gotten off my duff and done that years ago. (Be warned, the slightest waft of wind will carry the spray everywhere, so you may want to plan on washing the car inside and out when you're done.)

[ptjones]

I believe the front wheels need to be turning (traction motor, differential, transfer shaft and gears, and ring gear must be spinning) as the issue is a bearing on the transfer shaft (see quote below as this is all I can find on 14B07). So, it would be hard to put a long screwdriver on the tranny when the car is moving. :)   But, the screwdriver trick or any long bar, pipe does work in listening to engine noises.

 

 

BTW, I can only hear those noises I mentioned a few posts ago with the driver's window down and at low speeds with ICE off.  At higher speeds or with ICE on there's too much wind / engine noise.  So, when in EV+ with window down and say less than 15 mph, the noises are barely audible.  For those that have had their tranny replaced, are the noises audible with the windows closed and coasting at high, medium, and low speeds?  

 

I also continue to monitor transmission fluid temperature and it appears normal although I'd probably not notice a 5 / 10 F increase in TFT since I don't have any comparable data saved.  TFT seems to run at least 30F+ lower than ECT under normal driving.  Excessive regeneration when going down steep hills can cause TFT to be higher and ECT lower and thus the 30 F differential doesn't always hold.

I first noticed the noise when the windows were closed with ICE running, IIRC it was quieter in EV.  From the time I first heard the noise to when I stopped it was 500 miles and they put it on the rack with ICE running and said it was the trans.  Went another 800+ miles and decided I'd better get it fixed, I didn't want to get stuck out in the middle of nowhere. It worked out great for me. :)

 

Paul

 

P.S. It's worth alot to find a real good Dealer/Service Dept to have the CMAX checked/work done, I had mine done 1300 miles from home. :)

[RobMax]

Quick update:

Took the 2013 into the dealership where they promptly diagnosed the same problem many others described with the same grinding, humming, and chirping noises from the tranny. They said it's okay to drive, as it won't ruin things anymore than they already are, but scheduled me to bring it back in when their CVT tranny tech has completed work on the two other 2013s (Fusion Hybrids in this case) he's replacing the trannys on. Apparently a very common problem with 2013s, as the service advisor seemed to be well aware of the issue. 

 

He said the repair will take a few days because the entire engine, tranny, drive motor assembly has to be removed as a unit, then everything bad replaced before they can put it all back together and put it back in. Sounds like a huge pain, but hopefully that resolves it till after my CPO warranty runs out.

 

Due to my schedule I couldn't drop the car off till last Monday, and just picked it up yesterday. Prior to the drop off I put another 500 miles on it, which I'm sure did the transmission and motors no favors. Dealership said I could drive it without dying or ruining anything else, and sounds like they were right. Had just over 56,000 miles when I dropped it off.

 

To recap, I had some bad grinding in reverse (though that went away later), humming and chirping going forward. 

 

Here's the excerpt from the work order:

"Took fluid samples. Found metal contamination. Ran oasis, found TSB 16-0105. Removed transmission assembly (part # FG9Z-7000-C), found transfer shaft bearing failure and metal contamination in trans fluid. Also found pitted and worn generator/starter bearings. Removed and replaced transmission assembly, topped off fluid, and performed transmission characterization per TSB."

 

Dealership also upgraded all the modules and sub-modules on the car, so quite a bit of the electronics had been reset, including lifetime stats.

I also had to turn off the autolock and unlock stuff again (hate the nannies).

 

I noticed many driveability improvements immediately, along with no noises at all.

SYMPTOM BEFORE:

Braking was always linear, but just before car came to a stop it would get very abrupt, like the brakes grabbed harder but without any added pedal pressure.

AFTER:

No issues at all. Car comes to a stop normally.

 

SYMPTOM BEFORE: 

When in very slow traffic (like at freeway on-ramp metering lights) with brakes slightly depressed and using light, static pressure, on the brake pedal, the car would have a pretty severe bucking problem from what felt like the brakes repeatedly grabbing and releasing. The bucking moved my head back and forth like I was a muppet or Merton Hanks from the old SF 49ers defense days.

AFTER:

No issues at all. No bucking at any speeds with light pedal pressure applied.

 

SYMPTOM BEFORE: 

Abrupt throttle tip-in when taking off from a stop, and all the way up to ~20mph. Just the slightest movement of the gas pedal at these low speeds would cause the car to jump forward quicker than any other car I've driven. It would cause perceptible head jerking in me and passengers just touching the throttle. It was very difficult to modulate the throttle for smooth acceleration.

AFTER:

No issues at all. Car accelerates from a stop to any speed linearly without any abrupt acceleration.

 

Whatever all those issues were caused by, the transmission replacement and module updates seem to have cured them completely. I was told the car had the modules and sub done during a recall before I bought it, but those problems (except for the noise) always existed when I bought it. After the transmission replacement my 2013 now drives exactly like my wife's 2014, so I'm betting the transmission was the issue causing all these symptoms. 

 

Sidenote:

I had the choice of using a Mustang or Focus sedan as the loaner. Should've gone with the Stang but chose the Focus for the 4 door convenience. The dual clutch auto transmissions in those Focii are absolute crap with the bucking, and the delayed engagement, and peaky acceleration, common in so many of them. I've had many Focus rentals the last couple years with high mileage but this loaner had less than 2000 miles and was just as bad. Handled nice (just like the C-Max) but I was constantly concerned about how much throttle to apply from a stop or slow speeds because of how odd the darn thing shifted, and how nonlinear the power delivery was. 

 

So glad to be back in my C-Max, and very glad all the past problems have been resolved.

Edited November 23, 2016 by RobMax

[flychinook]

Well, wish me luck, my C-Max is in the dealership this morning for this same issue (along with replacement of the door latches under recall). The noise started a few months ago for me, and has gotten worse. The best way I can think to describe it is that it sounds like a stone wheel on a stone axle. Noise starts at 10mph. It gets louder at higher speeds, but never changes pitch. I thought it was the tires at first, but a new set didn't fix the issue. 

When I dropped it off, dealership said they were going to charge $100 to diagnose the problem. I'm not sure they realized that the trans is still under warranty (2013, 66k miles). I didn't correct them... maybe I'm just paranoid, but I feel like I may get a more honest diagnosis if they aren't aware that Ford could be footing the bill.