Energi mpg vs Hybrid mpg

[RMS13]

Why is the Energi model rated 2 mpg lower in the gas mode than the Hybrid model. I can't believe the extra 270 pounds of battery would make that much difference.

[plus 3 golfer]

Ford's Road Load Horsepower coefficients (generally based on coast down data) result in dynamometer settings that will yield lower EPA FE for the Energi than the Hybrid after running the various EPA test cycles.  Like you say the only difference between the two models is weight.  The graph below shows the RLHP for several cars.

 

   

[RMS13]

Thanks for the graph. But what is the difference between the two cars? Is there something in the drive train that is different? I am thinking about getting a CMax energi for my 50 mile commute on the interstate but what to understand why I may get less mpg than in my CMax Hybrid. I am now thing about getting a Focus instead of the Energi since the highway mpg is the same and the initial cost for the Focus will be $7000 less.

[plus 3 golfer]

I forgot the Energi's final drive ratio is numerically higher than the Hybrid.  IIRC the Hybrid is 2.57:1 and the Energi is 2.91.  :)

 

It's hard to make up $7k in fuel savings between an Energi and Focus.  I couldn't justify an Energi over my Hybrid when I purchased my Hybrid in Dec. 2012 for a $2.3k difference even charging once a day every day on about 15k miles a year.  Simple payback was over 10 years.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Taz]

I have a slightly different take but my situation is bit different. I am dealing with terrible traffic every day in LA. By running in EV mode for pretty much my entire commute, I am saving up to a gallon of gas a day. Current gas prices are between $4 - $4.20 a gallon. If I drive WAY out of my way, I might be able to get it in the high $3/gal range.

 

As a result I am saving about $1200/a year by using pure EV when I can. An example of my commute the other day was about 17 miles covered in 1 hour 20 minutes. I have also found places were I can charge for free which can extend my EV range to about 60 miles or more a day. Since the ICE doesn't run as often oil changes are reduced saving a bit more money. I am consistently getting about 30 miles on EV alone when commuting. The key is keeping it under 40 mph when in EV mode.

 

Another consideration is my ECO footprint is a bit lighter. When I factor in that I bought my NRG used, and it was about the same price as the non-NRG model, it was a no-brainer for me. I gave up some trunk space and I have a lot more flexibility. I had to do my commute a few times in hybrid mode and found that not going anywhere for long enough, the ICE has to kick on and ultimately my FE starts to dive. If I can at least roll a bit more than stopping, the hybrid isn't too bad. One particularly bad stretch, I calculated I was getting about 20mpg in hybrid mode.

 

OTOH had if I have to pay to recharge at some of the more expensive charging stations, I just use the ICE as it can be cheaper to run than using electrons from the high priced EVSEs. At the more expensive stations it can work out to I am paying about $6/gal for the equivalent range on electrons. Now that I know exactly what I can do with ICE or EV, I use what is best at the time.

[hybridbear]

50 miles one-way? In this case there is a big aerodynamic penalty for going with either C-Max compared to the smaller (lower) Focus or a sedan (Fusion). Have you looked at a diesel car? Diesels generally exceed their EPA rating on freeway trips. A diesel may be your most cost effective option.

 

Are you driving across any large hills on your commute? Mountains would favor the Energi since it can recapture a lot more energy on downhill stretches.

Edited July 30, 2015 by hybridbear

[scottwood2]

I forgot the Energi's final drive ratio is numerically higher than the Hybrid.  IIRC the Hybrid is 2.57:1 and the Energi is 2.91.  :)

 

It's hard to make up $7k in fuel savings between an Energi and Focus.  I couldn't justify an Energi over my Hybrid when I purchased my Hybrid in Dec. 2012 for a $2.3k difference even charging once a day every day on about 15k miles a year.  Simple payback was over 10 years.

Second that thought here.

 

I also don't think comparing a Focus to the C-Max is a fair comparison.   To me the C-Max is more of a crossover design.  I love the extra height.  The C-Max is a great city car.  I drive 10 miles in the city to work and I can get 60 to 70 MPG in warmer weather.   Highway is still better than many cars but I get 47, maybe up 52 MPG on the highway. 

[Adrian_L]

50 miles one-way? In this case there is a big aerodynamic penalty for going with either C-Max compared to the smaller (lower) Focus or a sedan (Fusion). Have you looked at a diesel car? Diesels generally exceed their EPA rating on freeway trips. A diesel may be your most cost effective option.

 

Are you driving across any large hills on your commute? Mountains would favor the Energi since it can recapture a lot more energy on downhill stretches.

 

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 

[stevedebi]

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 

Adrian,

I think you are mixing up the posts. The OP has a 50 mile commute on the Interstate. One of the responses was in LA with a 1.5 hour commute.

 

I also second the motion for a Diesel - the Golf TDI will likely get 50 MPG at high speed on the Interstate.

[hybridbear]

You don't want a diesel if you spend 1.33 hours to drive 17 miles.  Read the comment again--L.A. traffic. 

For someone with a 1.33 hour commute for 17 miles the Energi is ideal. For someone with a 50 mile & 50 minute commute on the freeway then a diesel may be better. As Steve said, the OP has a freeway commute.

[fbov]

For someone with a 1.33 hour commute for 17 miles the Energi is ideal. For someone with a 50 mile & 50 minute commute on the freeway then a diesel may be better. As Steve said, the OP has a freeway commute.

+1

 

Hard to beat a diesel at highway speeds

 

Hard to beat a hybrid electric around town.

 

Frank

[Adrian_L]

Ahhhhhh.  I'm the one not reading carefully enough.  My aplogies-----

 

As stated by Steve et al:  A diesel would be the "appliance of choice" for those with a 50 mile interstate commute, not a hybrid.  

Edited July 30, 2015 by Adrian_L

[Taz]

What I would love to see is a diesel/electric hybrid stuffed in a very aerodynamic body like a Prius or Tesla. Then you could have the best of both worlds.

 

As far as pure diesel, I have a TDI that I love. Sadly where it is at, diesel costs enough more that it offsets it superior highway fuel economy for the most part. Best TDI I had would get over 65 mpg at a steady cruise of 70 or so. It was the first gen Passat in the US with a diesel. We could easily go 800 miles on a tank without even trying.

[stevedebi]

What I would love to see is a diesel/electric hybrid stuffed in a very aerodynamic body like a Prius or Tesla. Then you could have the best of both worlds.

 

As far as pure diesel, I have a TDI that I love. Sadly where it is at, diesel costs enough more that it offsets it superior highway fuel economy for the most part. Best TDI I had would get over 65 mpg at a steady cruise of 70 or so. It was the first gen Passat in the US with a diesel. We could easily go 800 miles on a tank without even trying.

Here in CA diesel is over a buck cheaper.

 

I don't know why no one has gone for diesel hybrid, except maybe that the engine costs more, and a hybrid already has extra costs tacked on due to the battery. Might not look good for MSRP. And of course the diesel engine is heavier, which is the enemy of fuel economy.

[Taz]

In CA, diesel makes a lot of sense. Even though it is cheaper than gas there, it is still more expensive than what most states charge for gas. I am out of LA for the weekend and diesel is 30 cents a gallon more than gas here in a lot of places. Gas is $2.39 a gallon. When I left LA this morning it was at $3.99 on the way to the airport for gas.

 

While weight is the enemy, on the highway it is less of an issue. So a diesel electric hybrid might be able to get by with a small battery pack and thereby save some weight. I think they might not do it because diesels are harder to control the noise than gas motors. Some people don't like the smell either.

 

Put a diesel motor in a very aerodynamic platform like the Prius and you could like see 70mpg at cruise on the highway pretty easily. Sadly most of the diesel cars on the road where built with aerodynamics at the forefront of the design process.Factor ho how long the motors last and it could be pretty interesting. My current diesel is close to 200k and running great. My highest mileage diesel was 437k and was still running quite well when someone stole it. Only issues engine/drivetrain related were original turbo went at 190k and the differential went at 270k. Mercedes definitely knew what they were doing when they built their diesels.

[raadsel]

Here in CA diesel is over a buck cheaper.

 

I don't know why no one has gone for diesel hybrid, except maybe that the engine costs more, and a hybrid already has extra costs tacked on due to the battery. Might not look good for MSRP. And of course the diesel engine is heavier, which is the enemy of fuel economy.

 

Yes, the price is a major issue. Diesels already cost more than their gasoline counterparts, by about the same amount more as the extra cost of a hybrid. So a diesel hybrid would likely be another $1,000 - 5,000 more than an equivalent gas hybrid. 

[SPL Tech]

 

I also second the motion for a Diesel - the Golf TDI will likely get 50 MPG at high speed on the Interstate.

More like 45, I owned one for 50,000 miles. Also, like most consumers, you're missing some major points here. Do you want a vehicle that is fuel efficient, or money efficient, because they are not always one in the same. Even if the Diesel gets better MPG on the highway (which is only barely does) diesel costs more, in some areas (although less in others), but more importantly, the maintenance cost on VW diesels is absolutely astronomical. You need to use a very specialized type of oil that is not available at Wal-Mart, and it runs about $70 if you change it on your own or $150 at the dealer. You also need to change the fuel filter every $20k miles, which is more complicated than on a gasoline car, and that runs about $120 - 200 at the dealer. Then you need to change the brake fluid after three years and every two thereafter, which is about $300 at the dealer. The tranny flush every 50k? About $400 at the dealer. If you do all the maintenance required for the 60,000 mile change interval, it's about $1200 at the dealer. The 120,000 mile interval is about $2,000 at the dealer. Again, this is just for maintenance, then just wait until something breaks and you need to order those expensive euro Audi parts!

 

 

So when all things are considered, operating cost for a VW diesel is many times higher than a hybrid car.

[SPL Tech]

aEPA).

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by SPL Tech

[ptjones]

I had a 2003 VW Jetta Wagon TDI, I liked the car(47mpg), but hated taking it to the Dealer, felt like I was getting ripped off every time. I finally couldn't take it anymore and sold it for good money and bought a New 2007 FORD Focus 5sp. 4DR Hatchback (42mpg w/mods) and only $30 for an oil change, what a big difference! :yahoo:

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

More like 45, I owned one for 50,000 miles. Also, like most consumers, you're missing some major points here. Do you want a vehicle that is fuel efficient, or money efficient, because they are not always one in the same. Even if the Diesel gets better MPG on the highway (which is only barely does) diesel costs more, in some areas (although less in others), but more importantly, the maintenance cost on VW diesels is absolutely astronomical. You need to use a very specialized type of oil that is not available at Wal-Mart, and it runs about $70 if you change it on your own or $150 at the dealer. You also need to change the fuel filter every $20k miles, which is more complicated than on a gasoline car, and that runs about $120 - 200 at the dealer. Then you need to change the brake fluid after three years and every two thereafter, which is about $300 at the dealer. The tranny flush every 50k? About $400 at the dealer. If you do all the maintenance required for the 60,000 mile change interval, it's about $1200 at the dealer. The 120,000 mile interval is about $2,000 at the dealer. Again, this is just for maintenance, then just wait until something breaks and you need to order those expensive euro Audi parts!

 

 

So when all things are considered, operating cost for a VW diesel is many times higher than a hybrid car.

Is this for a recent model VW TDI?

 

FWIW, diesel is 1 buck cheaper here in LA.

[SPL Tech]

Is this for a recent model VW TDI?

 

FWIW, diesel is 1 buck cheaper here in LA.

For a 2009. Diesel does seem cheaper now. For the entire time I had my 2009 TDI, it was more expensive. I wouldent count on diesel staying cheaper forever. Diesel price is quite volatile.

Edited September 1, 2015 by SPL Tech

[stevedebi]

For a 2009. Diesel does seem cheaper now. For the entire time I had my 2009 TDI, it was more expensive. I wouldent count on diesel staying cheaper forever. Diesel price is quite volatile.

Well, I better put some more money aside for maintenance. My wife has a 2014 Passat. Different engine, though.

[plus 3 golfer]

Well, I better put some more money aside for maintenance. My wife has a 2014 Passat. Different engine, though.

DIY :)  Different engine than 2009 and I believe transmission but likely similar maintenance and maintenance schedule.

 

The 40k maintenance service on my 2009 TDI was done for a total cost of around $200+ which included - all filters - oil, fuel, cabin, air (didn't really need changed), and DSG filters; all fluids - motor oil (likely $10 per liter * 5) and DSG transmission fluid (likely $17+ per liter * 5 liters); and a few tools - a FloTool Measu-Funnel from WalMart ($5); flexible clear tubing ($5) and a couple of larger hex wrenches ($15 or so).  Of course, I have other common tools used when doing such auto maintenance.  The dealer at the 40k maintenance will do the above service and also inspect such items as brakes, tires, battery, suspension, steering and so forth and generally charge $600 - $900.   Routine maintenance prior to the 40k service was included by VW with the purchase and done by the dealer.  No extra ordinary maintenance was required on my TDI at 40k miles nor when I traded it for the C-Max at just under 80 k miles (never needed an alignment nor battery replacement).  Add 3 more oil change and one fuel filter and I spent around $350 on maintenance in just under 80 k miles.

 

At 40 k on my C-Max, I've spent about $160 on DIY scheduled maintenance - $120 for four oil changes and around $40 for two cabin filters and one air filter.  Plus I needed an alignment by the dealer - around $125 at 27 k miles and a new battery at 47 k miles at 2 1/2 years ownership for about $135 at dealer (B2B warranty expired at 36 k miles).  Total maintenance at 50 k miles is now up to $450 on my C-Max.

 

So, which car is cheaper to maintain??? 

[Taz]

Did you have to do a timing belt change on your TDI? That was a pretty spendy maintenance item on my TDI. Just because YOU didn't pay for the maintenance on the first 40k doesn't mean it didn't cost something so it isn't accurate to say it was cheaper to maintain. VW just added it into the price of the car.

 

I've owned a lot of diesels in my lifetime and still have a TDI. I tend to agree that the fuel costs may be lower but often there are a lot of other associated costs that people don't look at. All the little sensitive things like a bad load of diesel and you need to change your fuel filter. Really cold weather so you add some diesel fuel conditioner to help it form gelling. I could go on and on. I spent so much time on a farm working with diesel tractors and bulldozers I think my hands permanently smell like diesel. 

 

If I was 100%, or close to it on a highway, I'd consider a diesel (or another Prius). Other than that our C-max is great. I don't know if it will last as long as my longest running diesel at 470,000+ miles, but for now it is a good option dealing with LA traffic and the weekend trips.

[plus 3 golfer]

Did you have to do a timing belt change on your TDI? That was a pretty spendy maintenance item on my TDI. Just because YOU didn't pay for the maintenance on the first 40k doesn't mean it didn't cost something so it isn't accurate to say it was cheaper to maintain. VW just added it into the price of the car.

 

I've owned a lot of diesels in my lifetime and still have a TDI. I tend to agree that the fuel costs may be lower but often there are a lot of other associated costs that people don't look at. All the little sensitive things like a bad load of diesel and you need to change your fuel filter. Really cold weather so you add some diesel fuel conditioner to help it form gelling. I could go on and on. I spent so much time on a farm working with diesel tractors and bulldozers I think my hands permanently smell like diesel. 

 

If I was 100%, or close to it on a highway, I'd consider a diesel (or another Prius). Other than that our C-max is great. I don't know if it will last as long as my longest running diesel at 470,000+ miles, but for now it is a good option dealing with LA traffic and the weekend trips.

My first diesel was purchased new in Dec. 1976.  I've owned diesels but for about 8 years since then (including the last 2 3/4 years  :) ).  I sold perfectly good diesels at 250 - 275 k miles.  Just got tired of them after 10 - 12 years.  Timing belt replacement on 2009 Tdi is at 120 k miles.  My guess is most C-Max owners won't keep their C-Max beyond 120 k miles.  My post is only to show what I spent.  There's no way to assess what the price adder is of the built in 3 year free maintenance.  It certainly won't be anywhere near what one would pay a dealer to do it.   The point though is if one can DIY, the maintenance costs are not that bad on a diesel up to 120 k miles.  

 

One of the reasons I got rid of my TDI was prospective maintenance and failures.  Timing belt replacement was only a minor consideration (maybe a $700 expense every 120 k miles).  The biggie is the HPFP (I had a failure at 44k miles covered under warranty).  It would  conservatively be $6-8 k to replace all components "touched" by fuel injection system.  VW was virtually replacing all failures (even failures for mis-fueling) at no cost after the power train warranty expired .  But recently after NHTSA said that they could find no evidence that failing HPFP were a safety concern (engine quits at highway speed), VW issued an extended warranty to IIRC 120 k miles on the HPFP if a fuel sample indicated no fuel contamination (IIRC MY 2009 - 2013?).   The issue though is what happens after 120 k miles or if fuel contamination is found before 120 k miles.

 

When I analyzed the data VW provided to NHTSA, the failure rate of 2009 MY was near 1% a year per year of ownership. 2micron sells kit(s) to contain the HPFP debris and with the kit only require replacement of HPFP and filters.  So, one can hedge the $ 6 k plus costs of a HPFP for IIRC around $600 for the kit.  But the chances of another HPFP increases each year.  A HPFP replacement after installation of the kit will likely be less than $2 k.  Since we take several long trips a year (4-5 k each round trip), I deemed my 2009 TDi as an unreliable vehicle for long trips and hence traded it for the C-Max.  I had no confidence in NHTSA finding a safety issue when I traded it (and of course they didn't find a safety defect).

 

The other big ticket item on newer diesels is the DPF which likely has a life of around 150 - 200 k miles.  We can also name potential big ticket items on the C-Max. :)

 

We are comparing two cars (hybrid vs diesel) which cost significantly more and are more complex than a comparable gas vehicle.  I always question whether it's worth spending $ upfront for fuel efficiency.  Will the savings from the fuel efficiency of a diesel or hybrid pay for the higher upfront costs and potentially higher maintenance / repair costs?   My guess is the gas vehicle wins hands down.   Fuel is just too cheap to reap big dollars in fuel savings from fuel efficient vehicles.