20+ days of repairs after 1.5 months of ownership

[salsaguy]

Very very sorry to hear you have had these issues. There is definitely problems with this car (misalignment and water leaks.)

its sad to hear of the bad customer service you had received. That is not acceptable at all. I would think Ford better is better than that.

Its sad when customers have to roll the dice and hope their dealer is a good one and not one of the few bad apples out there.

I wish you all the best of luck in resolving your issue and hope your life gets less stressful. Sorry to hear about your home. Your anger is understandable

[hybridbear]

What "improvements" are you referring to?  Did you think the 2015 C-max would get 55 mpg and the 2016 C-max would get 65?   While obviously some cars get a major re-design every so oftern (Honda Civic for example), it isn't going to happen to a car that was just launched in 2013.    I have no comment on the '17 Fusion as this is not the Fusion forum.

Ford has made no improvements to the hybrid system since 2012 (when the MY2013 C-Max was released). Other automakers have greatly improved their hybrid efficiency. The Fusion is now one of the worst midsize hybrids in terms of MPG.

 

I'd like to know why someone would think Ford has dropped the ball between the 2013 and 2016 models.

The main area where Ford has dropped the ball is failing to increase the EV range of the Energi models. The Sonata PHEV & Volt now exceed it. Honda has promised that their next Accord PHEV will exceed it.

 

"Ford is adding 13 new electrified vehicles to its portfolio by 2020"

 

That doesn't sound like Ford is dragging it's heels on the electro-car technology front.  Or lagging behind the competition.

Ford's plan for "electrified" vehicles largely is based on mild hybrid 48 V systems that offer minimal fuel economy improvements. They do not appear to have any plans to offer competitive BEVs or compelling PHEVs. This is very disappointing because I think the engineering & thoughtful design that went into certain features of the Focus Electric & the Fusion/C-Max Energi are way better than what Chevy offers with the Volt or Nissan with the Leaf. I just wish I could have the EV range of the Volt inside the Fusion body. Or a BEV Fusion with 125-150 miles EPA range.

 

Ford just called and has offered a refund.

I am glad that you are getting your money back for your C-Max. I'm sorry you had such a difficult experience. Enjoy your Subaru that you purchased around the same time.

[raadsel]

Ford has made no improvements to the hybrid system since 2012 (when the MY2013 C-Max was released). Other automakers have greatly improved their hybrid efficiency. The Fusion is now one of the worst midsize hybrids in terms of MPG.

 

The main area where Ford has dropped the ball is failing to increase the EV range of the Energi models. The Sonata PHEV & Volt now exceed it. Honda has promised that their next Accord PHEV will exceed it.

 

Ford's plan for "electrified" vehicles largely is based on mild hybrid 48 V systems that offer minimal fuel economy improvements. They do not appear to have any plans to offer competitive BEVs or compelling PHEVs. This is very disappointing because I think the engineering & thoughtful design that went into certain features of the Focus Electric & the Fusion/C-Max Energi are way better than what Chevy offers with the Volt or Nissan with the Leaf. I just wish I could have the EV range of the Volt inside the Fusion body. Or a BEV Fusion with 125-150 miles EPA range.

 

I am glad that you are getting your money back for your C-Max. I'm sorry you had such a difficult experience. Enjoy your Subaru that you purchased around the same time.

 

I'm not sure it is fair to state that Ford hasn't improved things. Carmakers have gone to roughly a 4-5 year cycle for their various models. So, for Hyundai, the Sonata Hybrid was introduced in 2011, and they updated their model, including the hybrid powertrain, for the 2016 MY (was supposed to be 2015 but the hybrid was delayed by a year). You can argue that the Sonata had a "mid-cycle refresh" of their drivetrain in 2013 but it was minor, and was needed because of issues. This isn't that much different than the various recalls/CSPs, by Ford, that have improved gas mileage and reliability on their hybrid systems. As for the Prius, that is just being updated for 2016, with the last update in 2009.

 

The 2017 Fusion has just been revealed, a "new model"; though in terms of interior and exterior design it almost appears to be more a refresh. The improvements to the Fusion Hybrid powertrain should also be copied into the C-Max. What wasn't announced is what changes they will have for the hybrid. For example, to get the range of the new Sonata PHEV, Ford largely needs to just put a similar sized battery in the Fusion/C-Max Energi models (currently 7.6 kWh, the new Sonata has a 9.8 kWh battery) -- the Ford's don't really even need much of a mpg upgrade to compete, just the larger battery. Until the new hybrid powertrain changes are announced for Ford's 2017 models, I think it is premature to criticize Ford. I would also expect that a new C-Max would be updated to something closer to the European C-Max designed (updated in 2015), which should hopefully improve air flow (and fuel economy), particularly if Ford tweaks it to make it more aerodynamic.

 

It does appear that Ford is planning on updating the powertrain and trying some new ideas. For example, we know of a 2017 C-Max Energi concept car that would include solar energy panels on the roof. While I can see some challenges to implement (such as weight of the solar panel), it does show that Ford is working on improving their hybrid technology. I've got to admit, this type of solar paneled car could help me -- depending on the effectiveness/durability of the solar panel. My car sits outside much of the time, so I could likely run it a fair amount electric only without needing to plug the car in.

 

I'll agree, if the 2017 hybrid drive trains are announced and little has changed, then we will have reasons to complain. However, the mere fact they didn't talk about the drive trains for the hybrids would seem to support the idea Ford is making updates, just that the updates weren't quite ready to be announced.

[stevedebi]

I'm not sure it is fair to state that Ford hasn't improved things. Carmakers have gone to roughly a 4-5 year cycle for their various models. So, for Hyundai, the Sonata Hybrid was introduced in 2011, and they updated their model, including the hybrid powertrain, for the 2016 MY (was supposed to be 2015 but the hybrid was delayed by a year). You can argue that the Sonata had a "mid-cycle refresh" of their drivetrain in 2013 but it was minor, and was needed because of issues. This isn't that much different than the various recalls/CSPs, by Ford, that have improved gas mileage and reliability on their hybrid systems. As for the Prius, that is just being updated for 2016, with the last update in 2009.

 

The 2017 Fusion has just been revealed, a "new model"; though in terms of interior and exterior design it almost appears to be more a refresh. The improvements to the Fusion Hybrid powertrain should also be copied into the C-Max. What wasn't announced is what changes they will have for the hybrid. For example, to get the range of the new Sonata PHEV, Ford largely needs to just put a similar sized battery in the Fusion/C-Max Energi models (currently 7.6 kWh, the new Sonata has a 9.8 kWh battery) -- the Ford's don't really even need much of a mpg upgrade to compete, just the larger battery. Until the new hybrid powertrain changes are announced for Ford's 2017 models, I think it is premature to criticize Ford. I would also expect that a new C-Max would be updated to something closer to the European C-Max designed (updated in 2015), which should hopefully improve air flow (and fuel economy), particularly if Ford tweaks it to make it more aerodynamic.

 

It does appear that Ford is planning on updating the powertrain and trying some new ideas. For example, we know of a 2017 C-Max Energi concept car that would include solar energy panels on the roof. While I can see some challenges to implement (such as weight of the solar panel), it does show that Ford is working on improving their hybrid technology. I've got to admit, this type of solar paneled car could help me -- depending on the effectiveness/durability of the solar panel. My car sits outside much of the time, so I could likely run it a fair amount electric only without needing to plug the car in.

 

I'll agree, if the 2017 hybrid drive trains are announced and little has changed, then we will have reasons to complain. However, the mere fact they didn't talk about the drive trains for the hybrids would seem to support the idea Ford is making updates, just that the updates weren't quite ready to be announced.

That site on the "2017" C-Max is pretty funny, since it uses a color that has not been in production since 2014.

 

The jury is still out on if they are even going to continue C-Max production after the factory is re-purposed. It appears they may move production to Mexico.

[hybridbear]

It does appear that Ford is planning on updating the powertrain and trying some new ideas. For example, we know of a 2017 C-Max Energi concept car that would include solar energy panels on the roof. While I can see some challenges to implement (such as weight of the solar panel), it does show that Ford is working on improving their hybrid technology. I've got to admit, this type of solar paneled car could help me -- depending on the effectiveness/durability of the solar panel. My car sits outside much of the time, so I could likely run it a fair amount electric only without needing to plug the car in.

 

I'll agree, if the 2017 hybrid drive trains are announced and little has changed, then we will have reasons to complain. However, the mere fact they didn't talk about the drive trains for the hybrids would seem to support the idea Ford is making updates, just that the updates weren't quite ready to be announced.

Issue # 1

Ford's definition of "electrified" includes 48V stop start systems. They have indicated that the majority of their 13 new EVs by 2020 will just be those vehicles. See this article.

The term "electrified" vehicles include not only battery-electric and plug-in hybrid cars, but also conventional hybrids and even 48-Volt "hybrids"--effectively powerful start-stop systems with more features.

...

Of those 13, analysts suggest, one might be a new battery-electric model, two to four might be plug-in hybrids, and the balance could be split among conventional hybrids and cars with 48-Volt systems.

Issue #2

Ford is not improving the EV range of the 2017+ Energi powertrain. See this article.

 

...electric-car buyers have wondered if the Energi model would get a boost in its all-electric range to match competitors.

The answer is no, although both hybrid Fusions get revised powertrain control software that provides what Ford says will be a more natural driving experience.

...

According to Kevin Layden, director of electrified powertrain engineering, Ford expects its 2017 Fusion Energi to remain at 19 miles of rated range.

[bro1999]

I'm not sure it is fair to state that Ford hasn't improved things. Carmakers have gone to roughly a 4-5 year cycle for their various models. So, for Hyundai, the Sonata Hybrid was introduced in 2011, and they updated their model, including the hybrid powertrain, for the 2016 MY (was supposed to be 2015 but the hybrid was delayed by a year). You can argue that the Sonata had a "mid-cycle refresh" of their drivetrain in 2013 but it was minor, and was needed because of issues. This isn't that much different than the various recalls/CSPs, by Ford, that have improved gas mileage and reliability on their hybrid systems. As for the Prius, that is just being updated for 2016, with the last update in 2009.

 

The 2017 Fusion has just been revealed, a "new model"; though in terms of interior and exterior design it almost appears to be more a refresh. The improvements to the Fusion Hybrid powertrain should also be copied into the C-Max. What wasn't announced is what changes they will have for the hybrid. For example, to get the range of the new Sonata PHEV, Ford largely needs to just put a similar sized battery in the Fusion/C-Max Energi models (currently 7.6 kWh, the new Sonata has a 9.8 kWh battery) -- the Ford's don't really even need much of a mpg upgrade to compete, just the larger battery. Until the new hybrid powertrain changes are announced for Ford's 2017 models, I think it is premature to criticize Ford. I would also expect that a new C-Max would be updated to something closer to the European C-Max designed (updated in 2015), which should hopefully improve air flow (and fuel economy), particularly if Ford tweaks it to make it more aerodynamic.

 

It does appear that Ford is planning on updating the powertrain and trying some new ideas. For example, we know of a 2017 C-Max Energi concept car that would include solar energy panels on the roof. While I can see some challenges to implement (such as weight of the solar panel), it does show that Ford is working on improving their hybrid technology. I've got to admit, this type of solar paneled car could help me -- depending on the effectiveness/durability of the solar panel. My car sits outside much of the time, so I could likely run it a fair amount electric only without needing to plug the car in.

 

I'll agree, if the 2017 hybrid drive trains are announced and little has changed, then we will have reasons to complain. However, the mere fact they didn't talk about the drive trains for the hybrids would seem to support the idea Ford is making updates, just that the updates weren't quite ready to be announced.

 

As a C-Max Energi owner (well, leaser....I turn it in next month), I seem to have avoided any major problems in my ~23 months of driving. The C-Max has served me well. But I am disappointed in Ford's action on the EV front (or lackthereof). Yes, they did announce the $4.5 billion investment into electriFIED vehicles, but the fruits of those investments are years away. Meanwhile, Ford's EV products (Fusion+C-Max hybrid/Energis, Focus Electric) are literally being left in the dust by the competition.

 

Look at the other "Big 3" players (even though FCA is technically Italian, I'll still include them):

 

GM - has already released the Gen 2 Volt, and will release the 200+ mile Bolt EV late this year. Malibu hybrid will go on sale in a few months (47mpg combined), and even a Cruze hybrid has been spotted being tested.

 

FCA (Fiat/Chrysler for crying out loud!) - just announced the Pacifica plug-in hybrid minivan with 30 miles of range. Scheduled for release later this year.

 

Ford? Umm....100 mile Focus Electric which will be released around the same time as the 200 mile Bolt...can you say dead on arrival? A facelifted '17 Fusion Energi?

 

And let's not forget about Tesla either. Even with Elon Musk and Tesla's consistent missing of deadlines, I believe the Model 3 will still go on sale way before a 200 mile BEV is released by Ford.

 

It seems Ford is content with remaining on the sidelines of the EV landscape while it sells just enough hybrids and low-range plug-ins to offset the gobs of F-150s and SUVs they sell.

 

I myself plan to acquire a Bolt EV later this year, which will be the eventual replacement of my C-Max. I've already leased a $40/month Chevy Cruze as a placeholder until the Bolt arrives....and I still have my Volt.

 

I really hope Ford bigwigs pull their heads out of their butts and start getting serious about EVs. I guess we'll have to wait at least another 3-5 years though.

Edited February 3, 2016 by bro1999

[fbov]

...I really hope Ford bigwigs pull their heads out of their butts ...

I'd like Ford's bigwigs to keep their heads right where they are. How soon we forget...

 

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 

In 2008, the economy went south and many companies borrowed money from the government to keep afloat. This list is sorted by the size of the initial bailout, so GM is #4, behind only Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and AIG. Fiat Chrysler is #10. Neither has paid back the bailout. GM still owes $11.4B, compared with their 2014 R&D budget of $7.4B. You paid for GM to develop the Bolt, not GM's shareholders.

 

Ford is not on that list.

 

Ford's bigwigs stayed off the dole, without cutting R&D. They are to be commended, that four years later, they produced this wonderful drivetrain in the first place. There's no need for socialism if the capitalists just behave responsibly!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[Adrian_L]

Thank you, Frank.  I'll keep my 47 mpg C-max rather than trade it in for an (allegedly) 47 mpg Malibu, thanks.

[kuklachica]

You paid for Ford to develop the C-Max, not Ford shareholders. Here's where several billion tax payer dollars went in 2009. From 2012:

 

 

Ford Motor owes the government $5.9 billion it borrowed in June 2009, the same month GM filed for bankruptcy. By Sept. 15, Ford needs to start paying that money back...

 

The Obama Administration, dreaming of a million electric cars on the road by 2015, loaned Ford the money to help it pay for development of hybrids and EVs, and to retool its factories to produce smaller, cleaner vehicles. While not characterized as a “bailout” by any means, let’s be honest: Ford’s loan – received at a critical time when other sources of financing weren’t available to automakers or their suppliers – no doubt helped the carmaker survive the industry crisis and contributed to its strong market position today....

 

....No company was a bigger beneficiary of the DOE’s green car funding initiative than Ford. It received two-thirds of the $8.8 billion loaned under the department’s Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing program...

 

....The DOE spent another $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money – most of it in Michigan – to provide matching grants to help companies build manufacturing facilities for advanced batteries and EV components. Unlike the ATVM loan program, those grants don’t have to be paid back....

 

 

 

[ptjones]

This info is three and half years old.  I assume FORD is paying it back and they have until 2022 to pay it off.  The Government required the money to be used for "development of hybrids and EVs, and to retool its factories to produce smaller, cleaner vehicles."  If FORD went to the Bank they could have gotten a loan for anything they wanted to do. :)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

You paid for Ford to develop the C-Max, not Ford shareholders. Here's where several billion tax payer dollars went in 2009. From 2012:

No, the shareholders will foot the bill as the loan is repaid. Ford did the smart thing and used Federal money, rather than higher interest bank loans.

[plus 3 golfer]

In both Ford's ATVM debt and other manufacturers' "bailout" debt, the people of the US are funding the debt and are at risk as the Federal government is "the lender."   Should all or any potion of the debt be "forgiven", the people of the US will bear the consequences.

 

The owners / management of a company bear the responsibility to pay back the debt through the operations (business and financial) of the company (not their personal pockets).  With the cash infusion from these debts, the owners likely will get a greater return on their investment in the future than without the debt funding.  R&D funding whether earmarked for R&D (Ford's ATVM debt) or from the "bailout" debt is important for auto companies to remain competitive. 

 

Below is an excerpt from Ford's 2014 annual report (2015 will be out soon) on the ATVM.  "Engineering, research, and development expenses for 2014, 2013, and 2012 were $6.9 billion, $6.4 billion, and $5.5 billion, respectively." -Ford 2014 AR

 

 

U.S. Department of Energy (“DOE”) Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturer (“ATVM”) Incentive Program.

 

In September 2009, we entered into a Loan Arrangement and Reimbursement Agreement (“Arrangement Agreement”) with

the DOE, under which we borrowed through multiple draws $5.9 billion to finance certain costs for fuel-efficient,

advanced-technology vehicles. At December 31, 2014, an aggregate of $4.4 billion was outstanding. The principal

amount of the ATVM loan bears interest at a blended rate based on the U.S. Treasury yield curve at the time each draw

was made (with the weighted-average interest rate on all such draws being about 2.3% per annum). The ATVM loan is

repayable in equal quarterly installments of $148 million, which began in September 2012 and will end in June 2022.

 

Net Cash. Our Automotive sector net cash calculation as of the dates shown was as follows (in billions):

                                     December 31, 2014   December 31,2013   December 31, 2012

Gross cash                              $ 21.7                  $ 24.8                          $ 24.3

Less:

Long-term debt                          11.3                      14.4                            12.9

Debt payable within one year      2.5                        1.3                              1.4

Total debt                                   13.8                      15.7                            14.3

Net cash                                    $ 7.9                     $ 9.1                          $ 10.0

 

Total debt at December 31, 2014 was $1.9 billion lower than December 31, 2013, primarily reflecting four quarterly

installment payments on the ATVM loan which totaled about $600 million, the repayment of a $300 million U.S. Export-

Import Bank loan, and the conversion into Ford Common Stock of $882 million of outstanding convertible debt, which

resulted in a debt reduction of about $800 million.

 

We expect to reduce Automotive debt levels to about $10 billion by 2018. We plan to achieve the debt reduction by

2018 by using cash from operations to make quarterly installment payments on the ATVM loan and repay the EIB loans

and other debt at maturity.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

This TARP report (Jan. 28, 2015) shows the final accounting of the "auto bailout" program.  Taxpayers lost $16.6 billion. :)  IIRC, the total funds lent was around $80 billion to Ally (formerly GM financing), GM and Chrysler.  Taxpayers will likely be on the hook with Ford's ATVM debt until 2022.  A lot can happen in 6 years.

 

Automotive Industry Support Programs TARP’s automotive industry support through the Automotive Industry Financing Program (“AIFP”) aimed “to prevent the collapse of the U.S. auto industry, which would have posed a significant risk to financial market stability, threatened the overall economy, and resulted in the loss of one million U.S. jobs.”82 On December 19, 2014, Treasury sold its remaining 54.9 million shares of the AIFP’s final participant, Ally Financial (formerly GMAC, Inc.), for total proceeds of $1.3 billion, bringing to an end both its investment in Ally Financial and the sixyear TARP auto bailout.83 As of December 31, 2014, taxpayers had taken a loss of $2.5 billion on TARP’s investment in Ally Financial.  As of December 31, 2014, taxpayers took a $16.6 billion loss from TARP investments under the AIFP program that will never be repaid, including the $2.5 billion lost on the principal TARP investment in Ally Financial, $11.2 billion lost on the principal TARP investment in GM, and $2.9 billion lost on the principal TARP investment in Chrysler Holding LLC (“Chrysler”). Chrysler Financial Services Americas LLC (“Chrysler Financial”) fully repaid its TARP investment.  

Edited February 5, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Bill-N]

Seems we're getting a bit off topic (IMHO).