When can you drive the car hard? (how to tell if warmed up)

[jackalopetx]

I just bought a 2016 C-Max hybrid. The car is halfway to broken in with about 500 miles, so in a couple weeks I will finally be able to drive the car hard. Except I have no way of knowing when the engine is warmed up without a temperature gauge. Is there any way to get an indicator on the display that shows engine temperature?

 

Do you just always assume the ICE is cold on shorter trips (due to the electric motor doing so much work) and never accelerate quickly? Also, how do you even know what the RPM is? A cold engine should generally be kept under 3000 rpm, but with these cars you have no idea how many revs you're doing.

 

I do have a Scanguage II but it would be yet another unwieldy electronic device cluttering the dash, in addition to my GPS and dashcam

Edited May 3, 2016 by jackalopetx

[jackalopetx]

BTW I've seen posts on here about how the gas engine runs until it's warmed up. Mine doesn't do that. Often in the morning I turn the car on and the ICE doesn't turn on until I leave my apartment parking lot, and then it behaves just like normal, turning off when braking or coasting, and only firing up when applying more throttle than EV can provide

[Ephethean3]

Check the owners manual section on information displays. I was able to set the left display in my '15 to show ice temperature and also a tach. That way I could know when it is warmed up so I could get heat without running the ice needlessly.

[plus 3 golfer]

Get the ForScan smartphone app and you can monitor data from all the modules in the car including engine coolant temperature which is really a computed value by the PCM of the actual cylinder head temperature or you can pull up the coolant temperature gauge on My View on the left hand screen or you can get into Engineering Test Mode when you start the car and page through the screen to get a digital reading of ECT.  I've found ECT generally averages around 7*F cooler than CHT.

[obob]

As I recall, somewhere on the forum there is a great post by the member hybridbear that goes into different engine states as it gets warm.

 

I find the first state very cool. In the first state when the engine is cold, the engine either runs on electric or runs only to warm up the engine, not even hard enough to recharge the battery or propel the car, unless you really want to go real fast.  The car is propelled with electric.  So it bears fruit for me to be real gentle and slow until the engine starts to regen.  This can be seen in the display that separates gas power and electric power(one up arrow from the start screen and it gets displayed.  I have seen like 2.5 bars of electric acceleration with just a tiny bit of gas.  But usually it is a tiny bit of gas and a half bar of electric.   I gather this is because when the engine is cold the motor needs to burn really really rich to not stall, rich meaning high gas to air ratio.

 

You can also set the car to display engine temp on the custom display. (one down arrow from the start up display)  You can also set up a tach to display rpm on that display.

Edited May 3, 2016 by obob

[dicko]

Umm...  Forgive me for asking a stupid question but why would you want to drive an economy car "hard"?  And, just how "hard" do you think you can drive a C-Max with its little pretend engine?

 

I'm thinking that you have the wrong car and possibly the wrong attitude about driving.

 

Just saying...

 

     -Dick-

[jackalopetx]

 

As I recall, somewhere on the forum there is a great post by the member hybridbear that goes into different engine states as it gets warm.

 

I find the first state very cool. In the first state when the engine is cold, the engine either runs on electric or runs only to warm up the engine, not even hard enough to recharge the battery or propel the car.  The car is propelled with electric.  So it bears fruit for me to be real gentle and slow until the engine starts to regen.  This can be seen in the display that separates gas power and electric power(one up arrow and it get display from the start up screen.  I have seen like 2.5 bars of electric acceleration with just a tiny bit of gas.  But usually it is a tiny bit of gas and a half bar of electric.   I gather this is because when the engine is cold the motor needs to burn really really rich to not stall, rich meaning high gas to air ratio.

 

You can also set the car to display engine temp on the custom display. (one down arrow from the start up display)  You can also set up a tach to display rpm on that display.

 

I've cycled through the screens and I'm pretty sure there is no way to display anything on the left screen except "Empower" and "Engage" and trip info. Is there a trick to getting MyView to work? I found it in the manual so it's definitely available on the 2016, I just don't know how to access it

Edited May 3, 2016 by jackalopetx

[jackalopetx]

Umm...  Forgive me for asking a stupid question but why would you want to drive an economy car "hard"?  And, just how "hard" do you think you can drive a C-Max with its little pretend engine?

 

I'm thinking that you have the wrong car and possibly the wrong attitude about driving.

 

Just saying...

 

     -Dick-

 

Because in the real world you often need to accelerate quickly. 

 

Have you ever merged onto a highway or pulled out onto a busy road? You often need full throttle. On my short 5 mile commute I currently just assume the ICE doesn't warm up so when I need to accelerate fast I instead think "Oh my engine is cold so I can't give it gas because and I have no idea what the revs will even be".

 

If you never floor it, you are driving improperly and are a safety hazard.

 

It's also a sporty car. It handles great and has a lot of low end torque. You're missing out on a lot of fun if you drive it like a Prius!! Spirited driving every once in a while isn't going to burn substantially more fuel over the life of the car.

Edited May 3, 2016 by jackalopetx

[markd]

I bought mine with 21 miles on it in Blair Nebraska and drove 85 mph all the way back to Indianapolis. You don't have to take it easy on it.

[jackalopetx]

I bought mine with 21 miles on it in Blair Nebraska and drove 85 mph all the way back to Indianapolis. You don't have to take it easy on it.

 

It says in the manual not to "drive too fast" for the first 1000 miles

 

I don't think cruising at 85mph counts, they're talking about accelerating quickly. Highway cruising is easy on an engine

[stevedebi]

Umm...  Forgive me for asking a stupid question but why would you want to drive an economy car "hard"?  And, just how "hard" do you think you can drive a C-Max with its little pretend engine?

 

I'm thinking that you have the wrong car and possibly the wrong attitude about driving.

 

Just saying...

 

     -Dick-

The power is there in an emergency situation. But the C-Max is a bit different than a bare economy car. The battery can provide bursts of power when combined with the ICE. In fact, it can really run well if you like, and are willing to accept 33-35 MPG in town instead of 45. I've seen people do it, but not often. Accelerate off the green light, using the battery and ICE. Then let it cruise and recharge the battery.

 

I drive for MPG, but some people don't. I have a co-worker who has a Prius that he drives hard. Only  gets in the 30's with it, but he has fun.

[jackalopetx]

I found the temperaturegauge on MyView. On my 5 mile commute it just barely reached into the marked area, then dropped back down to "cold". 

 

Now I'm inclined to want to use full synthetic oil and change every 3000 miles. 10 miles a day where the car never even warms up is about as rough as it gets for an engine.

Edited May 3, 2016 by jackalopetx

[ptjones]

Don't waste your money. change oil every 10K miles, I'm going 15k  ICE miles next oil change, because I'm testing my oil. :)  Your CMAX will go into EV once it gets to 128*F, operating temp is above 202*F for best MPG's according to FORD. :)

 

Paul

Edited May 4, 2016 by ptjones

[jackalopetx]

Don't waste your money. change oil every 10K miles, I'm going 15k  ICE miles next oil change, because I'm testing my oil. :)  Your CMAX will go into EV once it gets to 128*F, operating timp is above 202*F for best MPG's according to FORD. :)

 

Paul

 

What is the 128F based on? My C-Max is in EV mode as soon as I start it up, seems to have nothing to do with temperature.  

 

BTW I ordered a Blackstone kit, gonna get the 1000 mile oil tested and then again when I change it after another 4k, then 5k. Then I'll be on the easy to remember schedule 20k 30k etc (assuming the results from the shorter changes are good)

Edited May 3, 2016 by jackalopetx

[jackalopetx]

I wish you could put the temperature and revs on the right screen. Why does everything have to be on the left? I want the KW sliders + RPM + temp but you can only have 2. Meanwhile the right side screen has the stupid "leaves" or compass or some ridiculous bar graph

[plus 3 golfer]

What is the 128F based on? My C-Max is in EV mode as soon as I start it up, seems to have nothing to do with temperature.  

 

BTW I ordered a Blackstone kit, gonna get the 1000 mile oil tested and then again when I change it after another 4k, then 5k. Then I'll be on the easy to remember schedule 20k 30k etc (assuming the results from the shorter changes are good)

Virtually all the emissions and fuel monitoring systems require between 120F and 150F engine coolant temperature for monitoring entry.  The algorithms will favor ICE over EV to achieve these temperatures.  This doesn't mean one can't get into EV mode.  But the goal is to operate ICE so that emissions and FE are optimized.  For example, the Stoichiometric Closed Loop operational monitors require engine coolant temperature to be around 135F - 150F before entry.  So, the air / fuel ratio may not be optimized until 150F.  When using ICE you want to be in this closed loop operations to enhance efficiency.  BTW, most fuel monitors "exit" point will be around 235F.  So, monitoring stops. There is a fail safe strategy for engine overheating based on cylinder head temperature which may result in shutting off injectors.

 

Doing 3 UOAs in 10k miles?  It's your $ but Why? 

[jackalopetx]

Virtually all the emissions and fuel monitoring systems require between 120F and 150F engine coolant temperature for monitoring entry.  The algorithms will favor ICE over EV to achieve these temperatures.  This doesn't mean one can't get into EV mode.  But the goal is to operate ICE so that emissions and FE are optimized.  For example, the Stoichiometric Closed Loop operational monitors require engine coolant temperature to be around 135F - 150F before entry.  So, the air / fuel ratio may not be optimized until 150F.  When using ICE you want to be in this closed loop operations to enhance efficiency.  BTW, most fuel monitors "exit" point will be around 235F.  So, monitoring stops. There is a fail safe strategy for engine overheating based on cylinder head temperature which may result in shutting off injectors.

 

Doing 3 UOAs in 10k miles?  It's your $ but Why? 

 

With the one at 1000 miles I want to prove a point, that modern cars do have a break in period, despite what you often read on forums

 

Then at 5000 I want to see if it still has elevated metals

 

At 10000 I want to see if the wear normalizes. It should also give me an idea if I can wait til 20k for the next oil change

[plus 3 golfer]

With the one at 1000 miles I want to prove a point, that modern cars do have a break in period, despite what you often read on forums

 

Then at 5000 I want to see if it still has elevated metals

 

At 10000 I want to see if the wear normalizes. It should also give me an idea if I can wait til 20k for the next oil change

As far as comparing wear metals to averages or more frequent OCIs, wear rates decrease as oil ages (more miles).  Ford participated in a study a few years ago (when I have time I'll see if I can find it) on a taxi fleet.  The bottom line was that more frequent oil changes resulted in more ppm wear.  The reason is believed to be due to the detergents in new oil stripping the protective boundary layer (which one wants between surfaces which is the reason for anti-wear additives) and then when the detergents are depleted (within a few k miles), the boundary protection is built back up (I'm not a tribologist so likely not using proper terms).  So, by changing oil more frequently one is operating their engine with less "protection" more of the time than one that is changing their oil less frequently.

 

Studies like this resulted in auto manufacturers increasing OCI. So, changing at 5k miles instead of 10k may result in more wear than leaving the used 5k oil in.  But you won't be able to determine that.

 

You are not going to be able to draw any meaningful conclusions from your UOAs.  Why, because you don't know what the wear rate is at 50 miles, 100 miles, 500 miles and so forth.  Yes there is some break-in as the piston rings seat.  I don't recall the numbers but most break-in done in the first few hundred miles (hence the 1000 mile number) unlike many decades ago where break-in was measured in many 1000's of miles.   IMO, any differences will be noise unless you tested a fleet of vehicles under similar conditions.

[plus 3 golfer]

I can't readily find the study Ford participated in a while ago (I may have it on an old hard drive that I'll search).  But, this recent study supports extending the OCI.  I believe most branded, high quality synthetic oil would provide similar results in tests.  IMO, the only reason for car owners to do UOAs is to extend the OCI.  But, one needs to add IMO the most critical element in a UOA and that is the TBN test at an additional $10. :)  Wear metals mean little as what is one going to do if their UOA is above average: tear the engine apart?, sell the car? do more frequent oil changes? switch oil?

 

BTW, I doubt taxi drivers are concerned about break-in. :)

 

Amsoil Study Conclusion:

 

"Field testing proves that AMSOIL Signature Series Multi-Vehicle Synthetic ATF and AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil provide superior protection against sludge and wear for extended drain intervals in severe service."

Edited May 4, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

Here's a blog I found when searching.  As with much on the internet, readers should take what they want from the bog and pitch the rest.  I copied and pasted the 0W20 test results below since Ford recommends using 0W20 in the C-Max.  I've been using Mobil 1 AFE since my first OC at 10 k miles.  I now have about 65 k miles on my 2013.  I guess I'll switch to Quaker State so I can maybe get 50%+ more wear protection. Now maybe my C-Max might get over 600 k miles instead of say 400 k miles before I need an engine rebuild. :)

 

I wonder why the guy didn't test Royal Purple or Amsoil?

 

28.  Seven 0W20 Oils Tested and Compared

The following oils were tested in Spring 2016 for their Wear Protection Capability at the normal test temperature of 230*F, which is representative of normal operating conditions. They were also tested for their onset of Thermal Breakdown points, rounded to the nearest 5* increment. They are ranked here just among themselves, based on their film strength/load carrying capability/shear resistance psi values.

 

The Wear Protection reference categories are:

• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection

• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

 

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.

 

1.  0W20 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, API SN, synthetic (gold bottle) = 124,393 psi
Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 270*F
2.  0W20 Mobil 1 Extended Performance, API SN, dexos 1 approved, synthetic = 100,229 psi
Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 265*F
3.  0W20 Pennzoil Platinum, Pure Plus Technology, made from Natural Gas, API SN, synthetic
(silver bottle with blue vertical stripe on the label) = 92,504 psi
It’s onset of Thermal Breakdown = 275*F
4.  0W20 Castrol Edge, Fluid Titanium Technology, API SN, dexos 1 approved, synthetic
(black bottle) = 90,745 psi
It’s onset of Thermal Breakdown = 270*F
5.  0W20 Valvoline SynPower, API SN, synthetic = 89,556 psi
It’s onset of Thermal Breakdown = 270*F
6.  0W20 Mobil 1 Advance Fuel Economy, API SN, dexos 1 approved, synthetic = 79,612 psi
It’s onset of Thermal Breakdown = 270*F
7.  0W20 Kendall GT-1, with liquid Titanium, API SN, synthetic = 71,385 psi
It’s onset of Thermal Breakdown = 260*F

As you can see, the wear protection capability of these oils varies widely. In fact, the number 1 ranked oil in this group, the 0W20 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, which is in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category, provides a WHOPPING 74% MORE wear protection than the last place 0W20 Kendall GT-1, which is only in the MODEST wear protection category.

 

Yet, if you look at the bottles, every single one of them boasts about the excellent wear protection they provide, to try and convince you to buy that product. But, obviously some of those claims do NOT stand up when put to the test.

 

So, if you did not have my test data as proof of their actual capability, and simply looked at the claims on the bottles instead, you would think all of them provide comparable wear protection. But, that is simply NOT the case. Motor Oil Companies are among the worst, for what some would call, blatant false advertising.

 

Unfortunately, since there is often no truth in advertising, it is in your best interest to never believe anything you read related to motor oil advertising. And that is why I started motor oil testing in the first place. To find out the truth about how various motor oils actually perform. Without my Wear Protection Ranking List, selecting the best oil for your engine, is only a guessing game.

 

 

[ptjones]

Plus 3 Golfer is right and it goes along with what BlackStone Labs is saying, no reason to change your oil until it starts to break down.  I have 131k mi. on my CMAX and it doesn't use a noticeable amount of oil in 24K ODO miles(11k ICE miles) and the Mobil 1 0w-20 was still good, Mobil claims up to 15k mi. per oil change. :) 

 

Paul 

[SnowStorm]

That "INCREDIBLE" oil might persuade me to switch to 0W-20.  I haven't wanted to because of the possibility (?) that there might be less wear protection with "thinner" oil.  The only reason to switch, as I see it, is for better mileage - and where's any real comparative test data on that?

[ptjones]

That "INCREDIBLE" oil might persuade me to switch to 0W-20.  I haven't wanted to because of the possibility (?) that there might be less wear protection with "thinner" oil.  The only reason to switch, as I see it, is for better mileage - and where's any real comparative test data on that?

FORD went to 0W20 so I'm thinking there must be a reason why. MPG's is the only thing I can think of. Again with 131k mi. with very little to none oil usage, I can't see any reason not too. :)

 

Paul

[jackalopetx]

That "INCREDIBLE" oil might persuade me to switch to 0W-20.  I haven't wanted to because of the possibility (?) that there might be less wear protection with "thinner" oil.  The only reason to switch, as I see it, is for better mileage - and where's any real comparative test data on that?

 

Yes there is less wear protection with thinner oil but if your engine runs cold like mine does then you get the higher viscosity anyway :P

 

I had a turbo Volvo wagon and used Pennzoil synthetic 10W-30 because it had the lowest volatility which is good for a high temperature turbo. Some people use 10W-40 oil

[Adrian_L]

Keep in mind that driving 3000 miles in the C-max will only be about 1300 miles on the ICE---another reason why changing synthetic oil every 3,000 miles is simply a waste of money with no benefit.  And environmentally irresponsible.