Dead battery 11th time

[zone1090]

Had car towed in to shop with dead car. I have installed a new battery about a month ago. Old battery tested good though.

After reading page after page of people with this problem I have never seen what anyone did to fix it.

[plus 3 golfer]

The Ford "fixes" were several CSPs /TSBs that you've likely had done.  I don't recall all of them but after the last Ford CSP 15b04, the reports of dead batteries / no start declined significantly.  I note that 15b04 expired in May 2016.

 

My guess is you have an intermittent, abnormal low or high resistance in wiring / connectors / modules / sensors that prevent certain modules from going to "sleep" when the car is off.  After so many hours, the "awake" modules drain the 12V battery to a SOC insufficent for the modules to operate (voltage is too low) when trying to start the car. 

 

Some of those with the "dead battery" issue had specific modules replaced and one had the module that attaches to the battery post replaced (can't recall the name, but it has a fuse and metering sensors for the 12V battery monitoring algorithm).  My guess in these "rare" instances where the dealer found a specific cause, the conditon was a "hard" failure which a good tech could isolate.  But, intermittent issues are very difficult to isolate as there are likely no DTCs stored and are virtually impossible to troubleshoot when the modules are active and the abnormal condition doesn't exist.  

 

I assume the "lemon law" in your state is no longer applicable to your car.  

[obob]

When I was having that problem before the "fix" I bought something like this which gave me confidence I was not going to be stuck somewhere.  With 4 dead batteries episodes I have a flavor of your experience.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Nekteck-Starter-Portable-External-12000mAh/dp/B01MDUQRSO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1511023278&sr=8-5&keywords=battery+jumper+starter

 

It might even be cheaper on black friday and there are lots of companies selling them.  (The one I linked is an "Amazon's choice" )

[zone1090]

After the first time (6months old) I bought and taught everyone how to use jump pack. Good thing because it has broke down with everyone.

Dealer tried to blame new battery until they found out I am in the battery business over 30 years. Last time they said battery was bad so I checked it myself and it still tested good on Midtronics tester. I changed it anyway.

Dealer managed to repower car and can't find any drains. So looks like we will bevdealing with

another session

[maxine]

I have a (used) 2013 SE and experience the dead battery issued.  However, I discovered that each time I forgot to turn off completely the climate control on the car at night, I would find the battery dead the next morning.  So for me, there must be some drain on the battery when leaving the climate control on.

 

I mentioned this on another post in the maxhybrid forum (not sure where I posted it) and one person replied that they doubted my "fix" was really a "fix," I stand by what I wrote back then because since I made my original post I have had the dead battery problem twice and both times as a result of my not turning off the climate control the previous night.

 

Hope this helps.    

[laup]

My radio stopped working and the corresponding entertainment panel would not work.  A day later, the car wouldn't start (dead battery) without a jump start.  The battery itself then charged quickly land seemed fine, including the radio.

 

The same thing happened two weeks later. 

 

I took it to the dealer.  After an electrical checkup, he concluded that I needed to replace the battery, which apparently was also draining the battery.  It took a few days to get the part and the installation, but all now SEEMS well.

 

Conclusion: I suppose that any of several components could cause battery drainage (others have mentioned being careful to turn off climate control at night).  But in my case, it was apparently the radio and its connections to the electrical system. 

[camelot]

Well I know I haven't been on this site for many years since owning my 2013 CMAX but I am experiencing this 12v battery issue also. I'm currently on battery #4. I've only paid for 1 battery, (#3) that was replaced 6 mos. ago and failed the second of this year. But it appears to me there is an issue with this. The car is under the extended warranty and due to run out in 2021. Last time in, all updates were done at my cost. The dealer is saying its the batteries not the car. The last time wife found it dead,  I jumped car to open hatch, disconnected my jumper  pack and found 12 volt battery reading 4.45 volts from cables! Hooked up jumper pack again ,started car, and it ran for 3-4 mins.  Disconnected jumper pack after it started. ICE shutdown in 3-4 mins. I left voltmeter hooked up and shut car down and viewed voltmeter through hatch window. Battery was at 11.77 volts. I don't believe a battery of this size can charge to that level in 3-4 mins. Key on voltage was 14.45. 14.58 ICE running. It points to dc-dc converter or contactor issue. Nothing was left on. Not even phone chargers in 12v receptacles. Sadly Ford is discontinuing this car. I have been very happy with it and wife loves its size, great for parking. When warranty is up its gone. I have owned many, many Fords in my years and hate to move on. But my next vehicle will be an all electric car, probably a Tesla. They continue to update at no cost, and have great range (300+) on even the 75KW battery, (3.5-4.5 m/kw. Plus the  degradation is minimal after 100K miles. (8%). Youtube has hundreds of video's on the cars to sort through and decide for yourself. To give Ford a chance for other than an Autonomous vehicle, I would like to see: (1) CMAX size car. (2) at least 75KW battery for range of 250-300 miles. (3)battery conditioning for hot and cold climate and fast charging when required. (4) Tesla like warranty on drive train and battery 8 yrs/100K. (They even offer 2 years 100K for CPO used. (5) At least an option of CMAX quality SEL interior. And don't forget the power tailgate! Was getting serious about a Bolt until hatch was too high for wife to reach to close. Hope Ford reads this. BTW If I can't stand my wife's driving, I surely wouldn't put up with a computer driving a car that isn't on rails.! Don't want to chance an off road experience!

[homestead]

Good luck with your issue.  I would have guessed  something on the car is drawing down the battery intermittently.  I have a 2013 SEL replaced the original working battery at 5.5 yrs proactively.  The replacement is also working fine.

Edited January 15, 2019 by homestead

[camelot]

I'm guessing something is also. But is intermitting. I know this is hard to find. But Ford will not pay for experimenting replacing parts. Nor time digging and looking for loose connections. The flat rate issue prohibits it from the mechanic's side also. Guess it will never get fixed. BTW, tried calling customer service number today and got a bad overseas connection along with a language issue that would not be sent back to states for some "garbled" reason. No satisfaction on that call. At $120.00 a battery or the inconvenience of connecting a charger over night all the time. It's still a very economical car. I treat it well and sorry Ford is discontinuing it. I heard Ford is not happy selling 40K of them a year.

[plus 3 golfer]

... ICE shutdown in 3-4 mins. I left voltmeter hooked up and shut car down and viewed voltmeter through hatch window. Battery was at 11.77 volts. I don't believe a battery of this size can charge to that level in 3-4 mins. Key on voltage was 14.45. 14.58 ICE running. It points to dc-dc converter or contactor issue. Nothing was left on. Not even phone chargers in 12v receptacles. ...

 

A couple of points.  Do you know whether the dealer reset the 12 V battery age (resets the columb counting algorithm to zero) when batteries were replaced?  12.4 V is generally all one will see with key off. This assumes about an 80% state of charge (see below) of a new battery. The battery at 11.77 V volts likely still has several hundred mA of load on it especially since most modules aren't asleep in 3-4 minutes.  If one looks at Voltage vs SOC curves for a C/100 rate of discharge, 11.77 V is virtually no different than 6 volts - both are virtually zero SOC.  In the first 3 or 4 minutes you will like see charging in the 10+ A range.  So, a few Ah of capacity should have been added which brings the charge up from virtually 0 Ah to a few Ah (11.8V).  IIRC, the C-Max battery is around 30 Ah which at C/100 would be a discharge current of 300 mA.

 

If your 12 V battery is 6 months old and your key on voltage isn't at least 14.7 V, the charging algorithm likely believes that your battery is a lot older than 6 months and will use the old data when determing the bulk charge state.  So, if the algorithm computes the battery capacity as say 25% of a new battery, the bulk charge state will only charge upto about a 20% or less state of charge (voltage somwhere between 12 V and 12.1 V).  The algorithm will then reduces charging voltage over time for the remaining charge.  It might take several hours of key on, ready to drive state to reach the 25% full charge.  If you continue with key on, the algorithm will simply be in a battery float charging mode 13+ V and battery will charge very slowly.

 

I have experienced the above prior to knowing about battery age and that I could reset it with the Windows version of ForScan App.  My first battery lasted 30 months.  It was replaced by dealer in June 2015,  About 1 years later, I realized dealer did not reset battery age. I didn't think it was an issue. But as I monitored battery data with ForScan Lite for smartphones, by mid 2017 with normal daily driving, my 12 V battery SOC would be in the single digits (sometimes zero).  If I drove for around one hour that day, SOC might reach 20%.  The algorithm was assuming my battery was approaching 5 years of age.  In Sept 2017, I drove 1900+ miles and after 29 hours of driving time in 2 days, the SOC reached around 90%. 

 

In early 2018, I realized that I could reset battery age, and loaded ForScan Windows on my laptop and reset battery age to zero even though my battery was over 2 years old.  After resetting battery age, my SOC now ranges between about 50% and 70% depending on daily driving times.

 

My point is that you may have an issue with battery drain but if battery age was not reset, your battery will likely never charge to a higher state of charge unless you put it on a charger overnight.  So, absent battery reset, you will likely see the "no start" issue more frequently.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[camelot]

Well car was at dealer for 5 weeks. Heard all kinds of stories. Not sure if its fixed. Time will tell. Work order says "apim program update failure." "Replaced APIM" " Replaced battery after test failure also". Didn't know there is an algorithm for age of battery. I know about "smart charging" and AGM sensitivity. But I guess the DC/DC converter is programmable for that. I just hope its fixed. Although I do have another year on the extended warranty.

[plus 3 golfer]

You are not the first that the APIM was "deemed" to be the issue causing "no starts".

 

You can check if dealer reset battery age by timing how long it takes for the radio to shut down after key off (don't open / close door).  With battery age reset, the radio will  play for exactly 10 minutes before the screen will show a message saying shutting down to conserve power (or something similar).  If not reset recently, the time will be less than 10 minutes and some including my self have seen as low as around 90 seconds (battery age around 4 1/2 - 5 years old).

 

The PCM determines how the 12 V battery is charged.  It then sends a voltage set point to the DC/DC converter.  There are PIDs that one can view via ForScan for the 12 V battery that show the accumulation of the Ah in and out of the 12 V battery among other data.  The battery age reset function zeroes out these accumulators.  So, the PCM algorithm can estimate the "remaining capacity" in the battery from the data and also determine the lost capacity of the battery from new.  The algorithm then determines the  "best / appropriate" set point voltages vs time.  

Edited May 21, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[jmcgliss]

This is an unrelated solution for battery drain but might help someone else who finds this thread.

 

Our Lincoln MKZ was draining the battery because the the glove box door was missing the "stop arm" that turns off the glove box lamp when the glove box door is closed. The problem was compounded by winter when we may have opened and closed car doors periodically but were not driving it much. The battery was replaced in fall 2018.

 

The part in question was lost or damaged when the previous owner or shop changed the cabin air filter.

[RAD Rider]

I have a 2016 C-Max Hybrid SEL. I bought a tent extension that slips over the opened tailgate - which I have yet to use. Therefore my tailgate stays open 24 hrs. After a while I see that all the lights eventually go out. My question is ... is there still a drain on my battery and will it be dead in the morning? Or should I leave the ignition ON and the engine will automatically kick on when the battery is low albeit all night long which seems like a pain and will probably keep me awake! What should I do ...?? THANKS from a 73 yr old widow who still loves car camping.

[Bill-N]

Carbon monoxide, produced by automobile engines, can and does kill people.  Please do not leave the engine running while you're inside the car.

[SnowStorm]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:47 PM, RAD Rider said:

After a while I see that all the lights eventually go out. My question is ... is there still a drain on my battery and will it be dead in the morning?

I'm not sure.  I have a sensitive meter to measure battery drain so I will run a test later tonight and let you know.

You certainly don't want to run the engine with your tent arrangement.

[SnowStorm]

OK, the test has been run using my old connections and procedure from 7+ years ago!

1. With hatch open and both outside and inside lights still on the 12v battery current was about 8 amps.
2. After 10 minutes or so (didn't time it), only the inside cargo area lights were on and current was about 1.5 amps.
3. After about 30 minutes the inside lights were out and current was about 0.25 amps.
4. About 20 minutes later it was the same.

In my previous test the current eventually dropped to a much lower value but even 0.25 amps all night shouldn't be a problem unless the 12v battery was about dead to start with.

In any event, you should get one of those little lithium-ion "jump-start" packs so you can "start" the car in the morning (or any other time) in case the 12v battery does ever get run down too much for any reason.  There are posts under the hood on the right side for this purpose - quite easy to do.  No need to get in the back where the 12v battery is located.

[grege]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these cars will self-shut-off after so many minutes of inactivity, correct? 

 

Greg

[fbov]

Yes. @SnowStorm just measured the sequence. 

 

Timing the shut-off period has been used as a measure of 12v battery condition. Good is ~10 min., as reported above. Get down to 2 minutes and it's time to replace. 

[homestead]

I think my car is down to 2 minutes but have never had any battery issues.  Not even close to thinking about replacing it. 

I think it is about 3 or 4 yrs old.   The shut-off period is probably determined by time since the battery was last reset not the battery condition.

[Degrandbob]

Please clarify my understanding on battery concerns. I have a 2017 Cmax Hybrid!

If I go into my garage and open the car door,which turns on the interior and dash lighting....then close the car door....how long is the normal interval before the interior lights go out?

[fbov]

I expect the same timing.

 

This is only an early warning; if you get 5 minutes, there's nothing to worry about. If 2 minutes, you've been warned. 

 

BTW climate matters...

"Rule of Thumb: A general rule of thumb for a vented lead-acid battery is that the battery life is halved for every 15°F (8.3°C) above 77°F (25°C). Thus, a battery rated for 5 years of operation under ideal conditions at 77°F (25°C) might only last 2.5 years at 95°F (35°C)."

 

[SnowStorm]

Aren't we mixing scenarios a bit?  Degrandbob is asking about the timing after you shut the door.  Just checked mine - about 25 seconds for inside lights off and another 5 for the dash to go out.  I would expect these intervals to come from a simple timer and have nothing to do with the 12v battery (assuming it doesn't go "dead" during that 30 seconds!).

[fbov]

True.