sudden battery charging issues

[garyh]

I monitor my 2013 C-max  charging with the online software. It always finishes on or before the projected charge complete time. 

 

The last two charges it has gone an hour past the charge time and when the light ring around the charge port finally went off when I un plugged it I got an error saying charging was interrupted by being unplugged while still charging.

 

I just tried again and its way pas projected time and has not finished.  The 120 volt charger has a green light  so not showing a charger error.  This car has lived at the dealer and I am ready to run it off a cliff.  I have only driven it 5000 miles and have 10 dealer visits for numerous problems.

 

Any ideas?

[garyh]

I found it myself.  I have not driven the car except around the neighborhood because every time I drive it further it costs me another $300 dealer visit.

 

I had not changed the time in the car when the time changed and it looks like if the cars time doesnt match the time on computer running the app it does strange things.

 

[ptjones]

Trade it in for a newer one that doesn't have problems, car over seven years old.

 

Paul

[garyh]

Car only has 47000 miles. My Honda has 155K and only needs routine service.

Edited March 18, 2020 by garyh

[jestevens]

I have 104Kmi on my C-MAX (Hybrid, not Energi) and never put a dime in except for routine maintenance - if possible like Paul said I would trade it back and either get a newer C-MAX or a Prius sedan.. seems like that car has issues with the charging electronics or battery.

Edited March 18, 2020 by jestevens

[plus 3 golfer]

On 3/16/2020 at 1:46 PM, garyh said:

I found it myself.  I have not driven the car except around the neighborhood because every time I drive it further it costs me another $300 dealer visit.

 

I had not changed the time in the car when the time changed and it looks like if the cars time doesnt match the time on computer running the app it does strange things.

 

So, the charging problem was with time discrepancy? What other issues are you having every time you drive the car?  Are you sure it’s not “operator error.”?   What does each SO say every time you took the car to the dealer? In other words, what was the problem and what did the dealer find?

[garyh]

Problem we have is the dealer does not understand this car and makes shot in the dark diagnosis.  They admit my car is the only one like it the dealership has worked on.  There are no other dealers within an hour from me and talking to their service manager they dont know how to work on it either.  I have never seen another one of these cars on the road in this area.

 

I have a repeating controller error code being set which I only found after taking it to a hybrid shop in the area that are well known experts and hybrids and battery cars. The code it sets they can read but they cant access the sub code needed to identify the issue.  Ford dealer just resets the code and says there is no problem.  

 

When it acts up I get greatly reduced mileage (over 10 MPG) and as I drive I see mostly engine running and rarely on battery running in EV later mode.

 

Even though you assume I am stupid and dont know how to run the car.  The stupid ones are the dealer that cant fix a car they sold me and charge me every time they do nothing.  Calls to Ford have done me no good.

 

7 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

Are you sure it’s not “operator error

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by garyh

[plus 3 golfer]

? Grinning Face with Big Eyes

A yellow face with smiling eyes and a broad, open smile, showing upper teeth and tongue on some platforms. Often conveys general happiness and good-natured amusement.
 

Do you know the code? control module? Do you get a check engine light?  Look on your Service Order of the hybrid shop. If the "expert" hybrid shop can't access the complete Ford code, then run from them as they are likely not experts and do not have a "good" scanner.  Ford dealer should have also logged the code on the Service Order.  I assume since the issue apparently comes and goes that when you take the car to the dealer / hybrid shop, the issue is not present.  Sounds like maybe a control module (controller) finds an anomaly and doesn't know what to do and the algorithm defaults to running ICE.   Perhaps a faulty sensor / component triggers a mode to run the internal combustion engine (ICE) over EV or to limit the operation of the EV system.

 

If you are technically inclined, for about $30 you can purchase the FORScan App and an ELM327 OBDii adapter to scan parameters in the car as you are driving, save the data, and analyze the data on a spreadsheet for comparison when the car runs "good" and when the issue surfaces.  You can also scan all modules for diagnostic trouble codes.

 

  https://forscan.org/home.html

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[garyh]

Ford dealership will not tell me what the code is and I have asked many times.  When they reset it the car runs fine but as soon as I start seeing only ICE and little or no EV and mileage takes a dump I know its come back. 

 

Its just simple, they have no one trained to work on these cars and the other dealers in the area when I talk to service managers are even more clueless. Electric and hybrid cars in this area have not caught on and with exception of prius (which is what I should have purchased) you see few on the road.  When I purchased car I asked them if they knew how to work on such a technical vehicle and manager looked insulted and said we know how to service everything we sell.

 

I will purchase a code reader as I have been a side line mechanic since 1969 and know how to use them.  I would get rid of this car but I can not dump my problems on someone else so it just sits in the driveway and I run my old Honda.  Plus this problem is most likely covered under warranty.

 

I only know it is a controller fault which is all I could get out of dealer.  Said it was controller that manages hybrid modes.  I really doubt I will get it fixed so I have a nice yard ornament. Even if I can pull the code they most likely wont know what to do about it.

 

Sorry for being touchy but forums like these have fan boys who will never admit the cars or dealers could ever be at fault.  

 

Thanks

 

 

[ptjones]

On 3/18/2020 at 3:48 AM, garyh said:

Car only has 47000 miles. My Honda has 155K and only needs routine service.

I'm assuming you bought it used and the car is 8 yrs old, to me it looks like the car had issues and the previous owner got rid of it.  Most CMAX Energi owners don't have problems and with  out good tech help it is hard to solve difficult problems.

I have 247k miles on my CMAX Hybrid and love the car like most owners.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

8 hours ago, garyh said:

Ford dealership will not tell me what the code is and I have asked many times.  When they reset it the car runs fine but as soon as I start seeing only ICE and little or no EV and mileage takes a dump I know its come back. 

 

Its just simple, they have no one trained to work on these cars and the other dealers in the area when I talk to service managers are even more clueless. Electric and hybrid cars in this area have not caught on and with exception of prius (which is what I should have purchased) you see few on the road.  When I purchased car I asked them if they knew how to work on such a technical vehicle and manager looked insulted and said we know how to service everything we sell.

 

I will purchase a code reader as I have been a side line mechanic since 1969 and know how to use them.  I would get rid of this car but I can not dump my problems on someone else so it just sits in the driveway and I run my old Honda.  Plus this problem is most likely covered under warranty.

 

I only know it is a controller fault which is all I could get out of dealer.  Said it was controller that manages hybrid modes.  I really doubt I will get it fixed so I have a nice yard ornament. Even if I can pull the code they most likely wont know what to do about it.

 

Sorry for being touchy but forums like these have fan boys who will never admit the cars or dealers could ever be at fault.  

 

Thanks

 

 

Ford's warranty on unique hybrid components is 8 years / 100 k miles.  Have you opened a case with Ford?  If not, you can call Ford and do such. 

 

But, my guess is the code is from the Transmission Control Module (TMC / SOBDMC) which makes the decisions on how to operate the motor / generator based on torque requirements and EV Now, EV Later, and Auto switch among a host of other inputs.  Since the dealer says the issue is a "controller fault" my guess is that there is an internal fault in the module like memory error, processing error, cpu error and the like for which there are DTCs.  So, the diagnostic is to run the TCM self test.  If the test fails, replace the TCM.  But,  Ford is generally reluctant to replace a module unless the module fails completely.  So, you need to get the code and push Ford since it is a recurring issue.  Ford will likely have dealer reinstall software first, if the dealer hasn't already done such - for $300 dealer should have at least done that much.

 

A question / clarification on your statement: "When it acts up I get greatly reduced mileage (over 10 MPG) and as I drive I see mostly engine running and rarely on battery running in EV later mode."  EV later should prioritize running ICE over EV to sustain the charge.  I don't have an Energi so I don't know what this really means from practicable standpoint.  Are you saying that this issue only happens in EV later mode?  If you turn off EV mode and go to Auto mode when this happens does the issue continue?  or does your FE improve (back to normal) in Auto mode?  If there is a system fault when you are in EV later or EV only mode, the system will default to Auto mode operation - does this happen? Also, does this issue continue if you restart car or if you plug-in and charge HVB or does the DTC need cleared?

 

FORScan has reset / self test functions for virtually all main modules (see snip below of the SOBDMC).  At least with FORScan you will be able to check for / clear DTCs and also run the reset / test functions of the modules.  You also might want to buy a Service Manual on DVD or download it if you are going to try to troubleshoot issue.  Below is a link to a SM like I bought several years ago (except mine has all 2013 and 2014 Ford models).  The one on Ebay may also include all Ford models.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-C-Max-2013-2014-Factory-Workshop-Service-Repair-Manual/303517970235?hash=item46ab14af3b:g:d50AAOSwdnNdu4HJ

 

[plus 3 golfer]

For those that don't know, the TCM is the large metal box on top of the transmission with the high voltage and cooling circuit connections.  MSRP looks like around $3500.   Used around $250-$1000.

 

Also, a quick search of TCM DTCs that IMO would be considered a "controller error" are shown below.  All require replacing the TCM is self test fails.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[garyh]

Thanks for the info. I will get a scan tool and see if I can find what it is they are hiding from me.

 

On my Energi, in EV Later drives like a hybrid. I see it switching back and forth from EV to ICE and many times a combination of both.  You can drive it like a video game trying to keep the display blue (EV) as much as possible for a big jump in MPG by controlling how aggressive or light you work the accelerator.  When all is well I often get over 50 MPG by driving it that way but average is about 45.  When it acts up even going downhill  or on flat ground there will be no EV switching but only ICE.   When its working its fun to drive and I know the original owner as he lives in my neighborhood and we live in a gated community. He just drove the car to town for food and around the neighborhood. I saw it often and he said he had no issues.  Its been garaged since new and inside and out look like a new car.  He is 80 years old and like to use EV mode to country club to play golf.

 

Energi in Auto runs some of the rechargeable battery and EV mode runs entirely off rechargeable battery.  I have seen the problem in auto and EV later.

 

Perhaps I can get the code and then complain to Ford and see if they can tell the dealer how to fix it.  The dealers around here have hybrid trained mechanics but one told me all it was is a video course and not comprehensive.

 

Again thanks for the info 

[plus 3 golfer]

I forgot to attach the following Ford document.  A lot to read but a lot of good info on the C-Max.  Once, you get the code you can search the document to see if the code is referenced in the document.  

 

OBDSM1503_HEV.pdf

 

 

[garyh]

very interesting document. Thanks

[garyh]

Problem is fixed. Called Ford and gave them a hard time about the dealers around here being unable to repair my car.  After a bit of excuses they said they would have someone call me who knows these Energi vehicles.  Guy called dealer and got info from them on code and then  he called me.  He said take it to the dealer as they now know whats wrong and how to fix it. To verify his theory he had me measure the 12 V battery voltage which was down to 10.75 V. He said a failing battery can cause strange issues on the Energis.

 

Dealer put in new 12 V battery and I have driven 200 miles and averaging 45-47 MPG in hybrid mode.

[SnowStorm]

Glad to hear its fixed!  After all this trouble did anyone tell you the code?

[plus 3 golfer]

Great news.  The SA or Tech should have called / pressed Ford prior as checking the health of the 12 V battery is standard protocol especially for module control errors. Customer should not have to do it.  I had thought about a bad 12 V battery but assumed dealer would have tested 12 V battery as Ford "knows" (and dealer should know) that a "bad" 12 V battery can cause weird issues in non-hybrid cars. 

 

The question then is:  did dealer reset the 12 V battery age when the new battery was put in? It should be listed separately on the SO as they have to use their tool to do it.  There are many dealers that fail to do such.  If they did not reset the age to zero, the PCM charging algorithm will continue to use the  computed, accumulated 12 V battery losses (via Battery Monitoring System) in the 12 V battery charging regime.  The PCM determines the set point voltage to be used in the charging regime when driving the car and also when charging based on current SOC of 12 V battery and the Ah capacity of new battery less Ah losses. 

 

What I have found via monitoring data is that, if battery age is not reset when a new battery is installed, the PCM will over time charge to a lower State of Charge than the actual capacity of the battery.  For example, a new MotorCraft 67R battery has a new capacity of around 43 Ah.  When my first battery failed and a new one was installed in 6/2015, dealer did not reset battery age (I didn't know about this at the time).  After several years I noted that my 12 V battery SOC was very low (single digits to mid teens). So, my battery was only being charged to around a 3-6 Ah capacity under normal driving.  I could charge battery up for about 24 hours and SOC would reach around 60+% over time the SOC would drop back to the lower values.  I now had FORScan and noted my battery age had not been reset.  So, the PCM was using the accumulated, calculated battery losses from around 12/2012 until mid 2017 or around 1600 days of losses and thus was not maintaining the battery to the proper level (new capacity less accumulated losses).  About 9 months or so later, I found that FORSCan added the battery age reset function and I reset battery age to zero days even though my battery was already over 2 years old at that time.  Currently, my SOC is being maintained at around 36% SOC.  My battery is now almost 5 years old. 

 

In the document I attached previously, look at pages 138 through 141 (see excerpts below).  The highlighted red text is key as even when charging the HVB via the wall, the PCM determines the set point charging voltage.  

 

"The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

...

Switch S2 detection is determined by the pilot signal voltage change. If the AC voltage input is within range the SOBDM enables 12V battery charging and wakes up the BECM. While waiting to enter high voltage charging state, the SOBDM sets low voltage output to a minimum of 12.6V until it receives a low-voltage setpoint from the
PCM via HEV HS-CAN. The SOBDM is ready for high voltage power conversion when it transmits a charger-ready message via the HEV HS-CAN"

 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

You can check whether the BMS was reset by timing how long the BCM will allow the radio to be on after car is turned off. 
 

Do this: Start car, ready to drive. Turn on radio. Turn car off but do not open doors. Stay in car until radio shuts down. Should take 10 minutes exactly if battery is new and battery monitoring was reset.  

[garyh]

I knew a reset was required when changing the 12V battery. Information I received reading these forums.  I told the dealer to do the reset and I sat in the parking lot after starting car, turning on radio and turning car off to see if I had a 10 minute timeout and I did.

 

Whoever guy from Ford was he seemed a bit upset that the dealer had so little knowledge and he said a meeting between Ford and the dealer management was in order.  I was never told code and Ford guy seemed to not want me to know either. He indicated the main code could be read by a Ford compat reader but the sub code could only be read by Dealer.. So much for transparent service operation.  

 

I have lost my faith in owning this car and must decide if a change is in order.  For now its running great.

 

Thanks for all the info.

[Hey Lady]

I have a 2016 Ford C Max Entergi and last night when I hooked it up to charge, the ring lights all flashed and then went dark and I got no charge.  I got no notifications.  I also tried to hook it up to a different charger and got that same results.  Has anyone else been able to fix this issue?

[Billyk24]

Were you using a 120V or 240V outlet to charge the vehicle?

[Miss415]

On 3/25/2020 at 12:56 PM, garyh said:

Problem is fixed. Called Ford and gave them a hard time about the dealers around here being unable to repair my car.  After a bit of excuses they said they would have someone call me who knows these Energi vehicles.  Guy called dealer and got info from them on code and then  he called me.  He said take it to the dealer as they now know whats wrong and how to fix it. To verify his theory he had me measure the 12 V battery voltage which was down to 10.75 V. He said a failing battery can cause strange issues on the Energis.

 

Dealer put in new 12 V battery and I have driven 200 miles and averaging 45-47 MPG in hybrid mode.

So glad you finally got it fixed!  I had similar issues & brought it in to dealer 3 times.  Each time they went through some diagnostic and said that was all they could do.  I ended up finding a bulletin on here regarding my issue and printed it out.  They gave me a new battery. The Ford dealer in my area sounds about the same as yours. I have same year as you & love it but wish I could find a newer model.