Testdriver

First of all, I'm not sure what sales record the HR-V is breaking. It sold 7,700 in it's first full month. By comparison, the C-Max sold 4,800 vehicles in November 2012, which may or may not have been it's best month (couldn't dig up all the numbers) 

Secondly, A base HR-V's MSRP is $5000 less than a base C-Max SE.

Thirdly, Honda already has a strong and loyal customer base in the CUV segment. How much is the HR-V cannibalizing Fit and CR-V sales?

So, people are likely buying the HR-V over the C-Max is because it's cheaper and/or Honda's strong reputation in the CUV market.

Q1 Garage to work is 20 miles, may vary 1 mile depending on whether I want to change it up a bit. 63 traffic lights! Work to Garage to the Golf course and then home is 28 miles, so 48 miles and I typically average 66.6 (good) to 62 MPG (bad). All depends on traffic. Sometimes I go to my Chiro and that stretches out the day trip to about 56 miles total and I finish around 65(good) to 64(bad). I am no longer an assessor, got a 9to5 job that pays way more money and less time & mileage on the road. My tank now lasts 3 to 3 1/2 weeks. My trip variations is what golf course I go to after work or whether I go to the market.

 

Now, the warm up cycle is intersting. From cold, I get Maxine rolling to about 100 yards and kick in the ICE in the D mode. Let it run for 2 seconds, and then kick in the L mode and I accelerate to about 15-20mph. Shegoes into EV. Then I kick in ICE again, and then she goes into a 2nd warm up cycle that lasts about 2 seconds. Then EV. Then I kick in ICE again and she, may, go into a 3rd cycle. That lasts about 2 seconds. All up this is over 2 miles and I expend about 0.03 gas, that I consider warming up from COLD. Now when she is warmed up, like driving to the golf course, she will take about 2 seconds and start in D go for a little while and kick in the L for a second and then kick it back to D.

 

Why do I do L - based on hybridbear's finding with the warmup cycles that been programmed into the CMax. It works and I run the center grill cover. Temps for this cycle in the morning has not dropped below 65F, its been warm here and Maxine :flirt:  the warmer temp.

Wow, I didn't know you could hack the start-up cycle by going into L. I'll have to try it sometime, though I doubt I'll make a habit of it  :drop:

Jus - those numbers are incredible!

A couple of questions. What would you say is your average trip length? IIRC, you're an assessor. Are you typically driving from place to place all day with, typically, less than 1/2 hour stoppages (so the engine stays warm between trips)?

I still haven't quite cracked 600 yet, but am consistently well above 500 during the summer. I'm pretty happy with that. My typical trip is less than 5 miles, and on a cold engine, so it can be tough to average 45+ mpg in those conditions. I am curious if you're able to do better under those conditions.

These are my estimates of the MPGs I get in my CMax at cruising speeds over long distances:

25 MPH - 65 MPG

35 MPH - 60 MPG

45 MPH - 55 MPG

55 MPH - 48 MPG

65 MPH - 42 MPG

70 MPH - 38 MPG

75 MPH - 35 MPG

So, if you want to achieve max MPG, slower is almost always better.

Ford took risks in developing the North American C-MAX as a Hybrid, instead of importing proven (German) diesel and Eco-boost engines and DSG transmissions easily capable of delivering 40 to 60 mpg or more. That's the problem with sharing 'world cars': Not every world market has the same transportation priorities.

 

I'd guess that manufacturing and the supply chain were probably targeting initial sales of 5,000 C-MAX's a month (and they actually approached that combined number ONCE, in November, 2012, likely due to early fleet orders). Who knows what the first-year sales target was? 50,000, 75,000, maybe 100,000?

Less than 6,000 diesel Chevy Cruze's were sold in it's first year in the US. Hybrids are currently much more popular in the US than diesels. Volkswagen, by far the largest producer of diesel cars in the US, topped 100,000 sold for the first time last year. Meanwhile, the Prius alone sold 145k in the US, and Ford sold over 80,000 hybrids in 2013.

It's hard to say if Ford is disappointed in C-Max sales. They never really marketed it that heavily, and sales numbers have been OK. I'm guessing it's been a moderate disappointment, but not a disaster. 

With that said, Ford's current hybrid line-up is kinda awkward, and it sounds like they're making some smart adjustments. The 2013+ Ford Escape is vastly different than the old model that they used to sell with a hybrid option. The new model should be able to achieve fairly close to the C-Max's MPG. It really is just a slightly bigger and taller C-Max. I'm guessing the new Ford Escape would get around 38/33 MPG. The next gen model will likely be slightly smaller and more aerodynamic, so I could easily see a next gen Escape Hybrid cracking 40 city MPG.

And then replacing the Fusion Hybrid with a Prius competitor, that will presumably have actual trunk space just makes a lot of sense.

I'll be sad to see the C-Max go, but I'm also excited to see what Ford comes up with in a couple years.

I received it on Saturday, $475. I bought it knowing full well that most drivers could not touch 47/47/47, and we easily exceed all three new numbers (37/42/40) in non-winter driving conditions, so these checks are a real bonus.

Thanks to a horrid Michigan winter, we're at only 40.1 MPG lifetime.

We did just return from a 400 mile trip and ended up with 46.2 mpg. About 300 of those miles were at about 72mph on the freeway with little stop and go traffic. I thought that was pretty darn good.

I'd buy it again. I've had a couple minor issues, but nothing terrible and my dealer's been easy to work with (Varsity Ford). MFT is still flaky and I would ding Ford for that, but I'd still rather have it than the dash-o-buttons alternative.

I think the 2014's performed well so far in the initial quality surveys. Hopefully initial quality issues are a thing of the past with the CMax.

Do you have the Energy Saver tires that the car comes equipped with? How fast do you drive in the city? If you don't go above 50mph, you should easily be able to break 40 mpg over 15 miles. Closer to 50 mpg would be more likely. Is it exceptionally hot or cold where you live right now? If you're sitting in stop and go traffic with the AC blasting, then that's going to impact you mpg pretty severely.

The issues you are having with the ICE running when in EV mode are suspicious. After you have been driving for a couple miles, you should be able to easily kick the car into EV mode above 30 mph just by braking slightly. It sounds like it's worth having the dealer check out, although I'm not 100% convinced there's an issue. It could just be user error/confusion  ;)

I thought the 40/45 rating was accurate, but am happy to take Ford's money. I only averaged around 29 mpg during the worst Michigan winter in my lifetime, however, I get around 44 mpg during the summer. That's with about 80% city driving, mostly short trips.

Still a great mpg car and still or top choice for now.

 

This however WILL result in even more lost sales to the crappy prii/prius for those that only buy based on mpg numbers alone and not ride/fit n finish quality which is more important than just mpgs to many.

I agree with this. They're going to have trouble getting people into their showroom at the current MPG rating.

The C-Max will be due for a complete refresh in 2016 or 17, and it'll be interesting what Ford does with it, if anything. If they can pair their 1.0l 3-cyl ecoboost with an automatic tranny, then that engine is going to heavily cannibalize their hybrids. Why get a hybrid C-Max, when you can get the same car with more trunk space, similar performance and similar MPG for around $3000 less?

IIRC, last month Ford only sold around 2500 C-Max's. They were previously averaging around 3500. I suspect that now that Ford has publicized the MPG improvements in the '14 model, some consumers may be holding out for the new model.

Wow, I haven't seen derp like that in a long time. Here's an interesting report:

 

http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf

Skimming through that study, it appears that it only takes into account tailpipe and powerplant emissions. Some other studies that take into account the entire product lifecycle claim that electric vehicles do more damage to the environment than conventional vehicles. That kind of analysis is pretty tricky, so a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted, regardless of what side the authors are taking.

The fact of the matter is that ALL cars require a ton of resources and energy. There are no green cars, and arguing whether a TDI, Focus, Leaf, Prius or C-Max is the most environmentally friendly is kinda just splitting hairs.

That really sucks. Ford should provide some compensation or buy it back. 8 times in the first year is ridiculous.

Most other C-Max owners I've run into love the car, so it sounds like yo got a dud.

I too received my check today.

The problem with the JD Power survey is that 1 report of disappointing MPG or buggy MFT is equal to 1 Model S becoming engulfed in flames. There is no weighting for the magnitude of each issue, so it's not a very useful rating system, especially when the difference between the top rated car and the bottom rated car is about 1 issue reported per car.

I DO think the C-Max has some issues: the dead battery issue that seems to affect a decent number of C-Maxes, and the MPG controversy are both decent knocks against it. Most of the other frequently reported problems seem very minor, imo. Of course, the vast majority of C-Max owners who have not experienced the dead battery issue are highly satisfied with the vehicle, even if they are mildy disappointed in the MPG. That, for some reason, is not reflected in the JD Power "quality" ratings.

Ford has placated me with $550. I'm over it  ;)

Driving through heavy rain can hit your MPG pretty hard (standing water and the rain itself adds drag), plus everything else that others have mentioned and you can expect pretty crappy MPG.

It's not going to go into EV mode frequently cruising at 70+ MPH on flat terrain. That's expected. It should go into EV when you're decelerating or on downhill grades. As soon as it flattens out, it will go back to the ICE pretty quickly at high speeds. It will not go into EV mode on pancake flat terrain, even if you're only going 55 MPH. Whether this makes the most sense from an efficiency standpoint, I do not know. Keep in mind, even when you're in "ICE mode", the EV motor still assists the ICE, so it's not really ICE only.

Ford Motor Company ‏@Ford

59m

Hope you're enjoying the Q&A, we've got 15 minutes left. Keep the questions coming! #EVtalk

...and then they answer 1 more question  :doh:

What a waste indeed.

Attached is a transcript of the tweetchat today on #EVTalk with Ford engineers. My humble opinion is that they pimped and retweeted all the posts that promoted the car positively (FE, Energi rebates, MSP) and dodged all the hardballs. I tried to ask several questions folks here requested and have not yet gotten a reply. If I get any direct answers after the livetweet, I will be sure to post them here. Meantime, here's what went down this afternoon with Planet Ford.EVTalk TweetChat Transcript.pdf

They're targeting users with lots of followers. They're using it as a marketing event. They're not going to bother with our technical questions, unless you have 10,000 followers.

I get it, but it seems kinda silly since it's not like there's a ton of questions. I don't think the event is quite over yet, btw...not that you're going to miss anything interesting.

I posted this (my first tweet ever):

@Ford Some people think they get better HW mileage when C-Max does not go into EV mode at 65+.What has your testing revealed? #EVTalk

I setup a dummy twitter account a while ago with a stupid name (J Real). Feel free to make fun of me  :headspin:

Twitter is the worst forum for a technical discussion. Describing things in 100 and whatever characters can be a challenge.

I'll post a couple questions on the 2014 model.

Neither do I. I and many other here too are more interested in some of these questions and if someone here TWEETS, can you please ask Ford this:

 

Will the 2014 CMax body enhancements be made available for the 2013 CMaxs?

 

Will Ford make more further improvements in the negative split mode to utlize the battery for > 65mph freeway travelling. Aka ICE High MPG.

Someone should first tweet whether they keep up with all the pseudo-technical lingo that's used on this board  ;)

I thought they did a nice job with the Hybrid Game ads that they have on the C-Max website. I'm surprised they went with the stupid "wheee" ads over the Hybrid Game ones for TV. Maybe they didn't want to deal with the grumblings of Prius fans too much?

I wonder if Ford decided to forgo marketing their Hybrids due to the cold climate. 

Google Now/Siri wouldn't work if they didn't have a server farm behind it.  MFT doesn't have an always on internet connection.

This is true, but those systems also run against the universe of data, not just what you have plugged into MFT. I will concede that having such a flexible VR system might be too resource intensive for Sync, but that's where they should try to head.

That's a pretty heavy duty potato gun you've got there.

I see you choose the correct C-Max color - looks great  :hi5: