skwcrj
-
Posts
24 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Posts posted by skwcrj
-
-
PT,
Darrelld has an obsession with Trolls. He might even be out hunting for Trolls as we speak.
When you say " nobody is interested your opinions anymore", I don't think you speak for everyone. There are a lot of lurkers (just Iike I was) who are interested in the C-Max's actual mpg. We don't want to buy one and find out for ourselves that it's not even close to the advertised 47 mpg. This information is very important to some who are looking for a high mpg car. I'm ok with you not being interested in my opinions anymore. That's fine by me.
This multi-page thread has been very enlightening for many and I personally appreciate all who have posted about their results and frustrations. I applaud those of you who still love the car because of its quality. Once you get tired of playing (and modifying your car for max mpg) mpg games, you will start just driving your car. You then have to come to peace with your car besides its mpg because you won't care to play that game anymore.
On hypermiling... My secret is that I just drive at 60 mph with cruise control and no faster. The V does the rest. I just drive it. That's all. I don't even know how to Pulse and Glide and I don't draft/tail gate. In my opinion, "drafting" is both dangerous and detrimental (chipped windshield or pitted front end at the very least) to your brand new car. The potential damage is not worth a few extra mpg's.
Test Drive. No you are right I haven't taken a test drive because you can't possible get the kind of information I have gotten from this forum in a test drive. Besides, all the salesman is going to convey is "this is a 47 mpg car and you just have to wait for it to get broken in to get it". Hmmm... Before reading this thread (plus blogs, mags, and Fuelly.com) I would have believed him. Now, not so much. I'm not that interested if the car is not capable of the advertised 47 mpg.
RKK is very wise. Pay attention to his experience.
So, PT... You probably won't want to read the following couple of links either...
Or
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-epa-probes-ford-mpg-20121207,0,3832182.story
We'll see what comes out of the probe.
-
From the Detroit News:
From the LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-epa-probes-ford-mpg-20121207,0,3832182.story
From the USAToday:
-
As I have said before:
1) Screen shots of short trips are meaningless unless you can get whole tanks averaging 47 mpg.
2) You shouldn’t have to tailgate trucks to get the EPA 47 mpg. In fact, hypermiling should help you yield mpg’s above (5-10+) the EPA estimated numbers not just meet them.
3) If the EPA test cycle is so flawed, how come most other vehicles meet or exceed the numbers when the car is driven sensibly?
4) I don’t think that Fort cheated. Ford designed this car to do well on the EPA test. This will yield Ford lots of $$$$. In the real world, it falls short.
5) Most people outside of internet car forums don’t really care if the car gets the EPA estimates or not. They will be happy with the car.
6) This is really a 40 mpg car. Only a handful of you meet the EPA 47 mpg. Most everyone else only gets 38-40 mpg.
7) “Once it’s broken in…” – Once it’s broken in you will see 1-2% increase in mpg at best. Not +7 mpg.
8) Most people are new hybrid drivers. Yes.True. But…Previous/current owners of other hybrids (HCH, Insight, Prius, etc..) have bought a C-Max and can’t seem to get the EPA estimate of 47 mpg.
9) This car is different than other hybrids so you have to learn how to drive it. Sure. But it’s not that different. The learning curve is not that steep. You should be able to “ just drive” it and still get close to the EPA estimates.
10) “The C-Max is more fun to drive” – Not doubt. But, the extra hp is the reason it doesn’t get 47 mpg in the real world. Yet, the 2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid is rated at 43 mpg City /39 mpg Hwy with 200 hp and most owners seem to meet those mpg's easily.
I get it. The C-Max is: Quiet, Smooth, Solid, has a nice interior, Sync is great, is fun to drive. You definitely get a lot for your $26K. But you have to realize that this is a 40 mpg car. Not 47.
Just some wisdom for some of you who are in denial.
PS. I know that I'm stepping on some peoples toes with my comments. I don't mean to dis the C-Max. It is a great car but it's not a 47 mpg machine.
-
Am I a fool for still liking this car?
No. I don't think so.
Other than not making the EPA estimated mpg of 47, it sound like a great car: Power, incredible technology, comfort, smooth/quiet ride. As a brand new model with brand new technology, it will have issues the first year or two.
-
If the biggest factor is fuel efficiency then I would say the C-max is not for you. I think it's unfortunate that the advertised mpg was 47 since it is unlikely (from my experience) to get that under nomal conditions. I feel that 47mpg only serves to disappoint people when they don't get within reach of it, which is not really fair to an otherwise nice vehicle. 42mpg is probably about it for me, and that is without hypermiling except for the pulse and glide technique which I have been trying when it is safe to do, I am also doing pretty well on the scores (upper 90's IIRC). The C-max probably would have been my choice for several reasons over the Prius anyway, but if the additional hp, and subjective things like the design, handling and interior features do not appeal to you then I can't see how it would beat a Prius. I look at the C-max now as comparable to the V in rated mpg, with a smaller cargo capacity, but the V just remided me of middle age in suburbia more than the C-max does.
I agree with you 100%. If the advertised EPA mpg had been 40 or 42, I wouldn't have even considered it. Of course, having said that, I bought the Prius V knowing that the combined EPA mpg is 42. I guess since I beat that by 6-8 mpg (8-10 in the summer), I would have a hard time going back to 40 mpg.
Thanks for letting hang here and give you a hard time. I appreciate all the information I've learned from all of you.
Oh...And ... Do you have something against middle age in suburbia???? :redcard: Just kidding!!!
-
I was hoping you would finally figure it out.
The question is do you get it? So what's the answer to my original very simple math excercise?
-
I tested Prius, CMAX, Prius V, VW TDI Golf , Subaru Impresa CVT.
Out of this list, all cars feels good except Priuses. I hate it all together. Yes, it makes better mpg for sure, but not much better, and makes it by the cost of the very poor driving and underpower (I can't even think how it wil behave on Old Priest Road or on HW 108, in Sierra).
(MY personal rating by driving experience was - Sumaru Impreza, CMAX, TDI Golf, TDI Jetta, Prius, Prius V).
Adding futuristic controls of Prius, it was ruled out. But I can recommend it to those who live in the flatland or in the big city (if they can deal with prius controls and visibility).
CMAX is de facto a compromise - it allows a very good mpg (if you cruise on 63 mph it really shows what was promised) but is still a very good car by driving feelings.
// The best highway runner by mpg is TDI Golf out of any doubts. But unfortunately California went against diesel and VW by itself is not very reliable car in average. I think that CMAX with TDI diesel and CVT (if exists) will show better freeway mpg then any hybrid (record in VW Passat was 1,000 miles on tank, but it was record of course). Europe got course to diesel and not hybrids and it was by the reason - diesel don't have battery issues. Hybrids must be Plug-In (CMAX Energy) to be a winners, as it allows to use cheap enevry for every day commuts.
The Prius is not for everyone as C-Max, TDI, or even a Porche are not for everyone.
The C-Max is fun to drive. But, your pay for that "fun" with poorer mpg.
The Prius would do just fine on "Old Priest Road or on HW 108, in Sierra". My car did just fine climbing Homestake Pass just east of Butte,Mt (same or steeper grades than CA Hwy 108) on our way to Yellowstone.
Most importantly:
I'm not here to sell anyone a Prius. You can buy any car you like. I could care less. I'm here to see if the C-Max will replace one of our older cars. It all depends how the user mpg's improve over time. Right now it's not looking good. If the car is advertised at 47 mph and most users struggle to get 40, then the C-Max is probably not for me. But, I'm not giving up yet.
-
All's I know about this stuff is that our '12 Camry hybrid is averaging better than 40 mpg over some 5,000 miles. I don't much care how many of those miles were solely on EV. All I care about is the bottom line at the gas pump! :hysterical:
Isn't that the truth. :)
-
So there is no direct correlation between ICE gas mileage and distance unless you had some way to turn the ICE on and the electric motors off.
Really?!!!! Interesting. Please explain further.
Darrelld,
Wether you like it or not. It's very simple.
Anytime your engine is ON, your car is using gasoline at a rate based on engine load and rpm. When you calculate Miles Per Gallon, you are taking the number of miles you drove and divide by the number of gallons your engine used. Hybrids are more efficient than other cars in getting better MPG because of the capability of being driven in EV mode only. The hybrid is also very efficient because it can split the power from the engine via a Power Split Device (look that up) to wheels, a traction motor, and/or a motor generator that charges your battery.
At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. As you travelled from Point A to Point B, your engine consumed gasoline to provide the work above. Anytime your car is in EV mode it doesn't use any gasoline. Any other time, it does. Therefore, your can calculated what your engine is using per mile. The energy conversion processes only affect the fuel flow from the engine and therefore your fuel efficiency.
Really. It's that simple.
-
You guys are making this way harder than it is.
This is a simple math problem. MPG stands for Miles Per Gallon or MPG= Miles/Gallons.
Keep it simple. Leave all engineering and energy changes out of it.
The C-Max Hybrid is quite capable of driving 1/5 of its miles on EV. Many folks on Fuelly report 20-25% of their miles per tank as EV miles.
Try Again.
-
Your math is wrong for calculating ICE mpg. A portion of the gasoline energy consumed by the C-Max is used to charge the battery that in turn provides more total range.
So.... Lets say you travel from point A to Point B. Say... 100 miles. You drive 20 miles on EV (ICE OFF -no gasoline consumed). Your ICE runs for 80 miles doing whatever it's going to do while burning 87 oct gas. Let's say you consumed 2.0 gallons. What was your 100 mile mpg? How many miles per gallon did get while on EV mode? What about while the ICE was on?
Looking forward to your answers!!!!!
-
Unfortunately, I can't send you a personal message; the site won't allow it because I haven't posted 40 times yet.
Good point. I guess I can't send a PM either.
Go visit http://priuschat.com/forum/
Lots of great info there.
The Prius V is .... Power Challenged with 134 hp. But, that is part of the secret sauce to get the kind of mpg's it gets. It does have an incredible amount of cargo space (50% more than the C-Max behind the second row).
-
SKWCRJ -- How do you like your v (vee)?
Let's see... Since we are on a Ford forum, It's horrible. ;) I hate it. ;) Horrible gas mileage. Toyota says the EPA combined mpg is 42 mpg. I mean look at my pitiful averege mpg on my Fuelly signature. ;) Too small. ;) Unreliable. ;)
Shoot me an offline message. I'll tell you more about it.
-
Sorry Valkraider. Your beat me to it.
-
So the EPA never tested the C-Max - all those window stickers are fictional, what am I missing here ?
The EPA only tests 10-15% of all vehicles. The manufactureres conduct their own tests. Reference: Fueleconomy.gov - About EPA ratings
Stranger,
The last photo illustrates what I'm seeing from most owners who post the total miles/ EV miles. Your non-EV mpg was 27.5 mpg. That's horrible! Most owners get anywhere between 28-34 mpg when not in EV mode. My 1990 Acura Integra does as well or better than the C-Max on the highway (I know... apples and oranges ... wagon vs. coupe). My worse tank on my Prius V was 45 mpg. My trips long (1966 miles) and short (33 mi - one way daily commute) average about 50 mpg on the highway while just "driving it".
Something just doesn't add up when Ford claims that they got 47 mpg on the two highway portions of the EPA test.
BTW... I'm not picking on you. Most of the users can't get the C-Max to give a tank average (by that I mean a 400+ mile tank) of more than 40 mpg.
Thanks for posting those images!
Others,
Be careful when drafting... The front end of your brand new C-Max will end up pitted in not time at all along with a chipped windshield. That is not worth 1-5 additional mpg's in my book. You should see what I-5 here in Seattle did to the front of my Prius V after one year. And I wasn't drafting. I finally got a 3M Front End Mask in August. It has already taken one for the team.
-
I got some information from the EPA that the EPA tested the 2013 Ford C-Max Energi thoroughly but they did not test the regular 2013 C-Max hybrid which is rated at 47/47/47. There have been some people who have been critical of these ratings and a number of articles written that question their validity so the EPA may do their own testing to confirm those results but that has not happened yet.
The Energi is rated at 44 City/ 41 Hwy/ 43 combined. Even though the Energi is 250 lbs heavier than the Hybrid, the Energi's numbers seem more in line with what most users are seein in the real world with the Hybrid. I wonder if the 47/47/47 will get revised? I hope this doesn't turn into a bad press episode like the Hyundai/Kia fiasco.
The story gets more interesting....
-
From Fuelly.com:
Fuelly FAQ
Why doesn't my fuel-up have a calculated MPG (L/100km)?
There are several reasons why an individual fuel-up might not get an MPG (or L/100km if you're using metric) calculated. Here are the most common reasons with links to more information:
1.) You marked the fuel-up as partial.
2.) You marked the previous fuel-up as partial.
3.) You marked the fuel-up as missed.
4.) It's your first fuel-up and you're using odometer tracking.
5.) The fuel-up is a duplicate of an existing odometer reading so no distance could be calculated.
6.) The calculated MPG was over 199 miles/gallon.
If the calculated MPG was over 199 miles/gallon it might be caused by a data entry error somewhere along the line. Frequently, an extremely high MPG calculation is due to an extra or dropped digit from an odometer reading.
-
Not partials, Fuelly does not start calculating and displaying data until your 3rd fill.
I have not started documenting total EV miles per fill and will start, its data that should be interesting to track.
Hmmm. That's interesting because all of my fillups have show mpg from the first one (going way back). Now you have me curious as to why a few don't show mpg and most do.
-
My wife is the primary driver of the C-Max and she drives it without fuel economy in mind. She usually speeds away from a red light tailgating the driver in front of her until an opportunity to pass occurs. Prior to her Jetta TDI she drove a Saturn Vue Redline and Camaro Z28. Her first question when looking at the C-Max was how much power does it have, the second question was about fuel economy.
When I drive as the primary (the last fuel up data on fuelly) mpg increases dramatically. I don't really use any special techniques other that pulse quickly up to the speed limit and glide in EV. Every other hybrid I have driven (Lexus, Hyundai, check the Fuelly data for those) got within the same margin or error I am seeing reported here and Fuelly for the C-Max.
All the Ford comparions I have seen relate to the Prius V but all the forum comparisons are to the Prius sedan?
I have a 2012 Prius V so my comparison is based on the Prius V.
Questions for you: Your first 2 fillups on Fuelly are partial fill ups (no mpg calculated). Did you mean to check "Partial Fillup"? If not, you can edit your fillup information and uncheck the "Partial Fill up". Do you know the breakdown between total miles and EV miles? Can you add to your Fuelly notes?
-
Seymour,
Air resistance is dealt with according to the EPA website by:
In the laboratory, the vehicle's drive wheels are placed on a machine called a dynamometer that simulates the driving environment. The energy required to move the rollers can be adjusted to account for aerodynamic forces and the particular vehicle's weight.
For others,
Also, the 48 mph average speed is not that far off. Think about it... You don't leave your driveway at 60 mph and arrive at your work at 60 mph. Somewhere along the way, you do slow down for a few miles and even stop for a few minutes at a traffic light or two. At that point you are introducing some city mpg's that should help out your tank average.
Here is the description of the two EPA highway test :
Highway: Represents a mixture of rural and Interstate highway driving with a warmed-up engine, typical of longer trips in free-flowing traffic.
High Speed: Represents city and highway driving at higher speeds with more aggressive acceleration and braking.
Ford manage to get 47 mpg during these two test including agressive acceleration (8.46 mph/sec max or a 0-60 of 7 secs).
Here's a few observations based on information from some of you here and notes on the Fuelly.com pages:
1) The C-Max Hybrid seems to get around 26-32 mpg at highway speeds based on EV/Total miles driven per tank. The numbers are fairly consistent across several owners and several cars with long trips during that tank.
2) The EV miles seem to the save the C-Max from looking even worse. But, the majority of those on Fuelly.com are at or below 40 mpg average.
3) The average for all 19 cars (as of 11/25/12) is 39.2 mpg. Ugh. That's not good!
4) Hypermiling should give you results way above the EPA mpg's (+10). It shouldn't take hypermiling to get the EPA estimates.
Having said all that, the sample size is still small. There are only 19 2913 C-Max Hybrids on Fuelly.com vs 207 2012 Prius V's.
Keep posting fillups on Fuelly and post your EV miles per tank.
-
Great information. Nice find.
-
RT,
Based on your screen shot, it looks like you averaged 26 mpg (46.6 mi/44.4 mpg = 1.05 gal. 46.6 mi - 19.2 EV mi = 27.4 miles with the ICE. 27.4mi/1.05g=26 mpg) when not EV driving.
Maybe more folks can post screen shots of their trips or (even better) whole tank stats right before filling up.
Some owners have been posting notes on the Fuelly.com fillups that include a summary of miles driven on that tank (mi/ev miles). It would be nice to see more people do it.
-
I been reading this forum with great interest for a couple of reasons:
1) We are shopping for another new car to replace one of our other older cars.
2) I have owned a 2012 Prius V for a year now.
One thing to consider as you comment on your mpg experiences is that short trip mentions are meaningless. Tank averages is where it counts. I have seen many short trips (10-15 miles) in my V average 65+ mpg. But, that doesn't mean much since unless you drive the route every day and get stellar mpg's both ways.
EPA estimates
Per the EPA website:
"Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles—usually pre-production prototypes—and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory."
So, Ford does the test as outlined by the EPA and submit the results to the EPA. I'm sure that Ford stuck to the guidelines of the test but it doesn't mean that they can't program the car to excel specifically for this test. There is nothing illegal about that. The ultimate disclaimer ("actual results will vary") is printed in small type under each rating.
The Prius V comparison:
The C-Max Hybrid fits between the Prius liftback and the Prius V. That is, the C-Max is bigger than the liftback but smaller than the V. However it is 374 lbs heavier than the V and close almost 600 lbs heavier than the liftback. I think that the extra weight and larger engine maybe the cause of the lower mpg in real highway mpg.
My Prius V is my first Prius and there was a learning curve. The V's EPA mpg ratings are 44 city/ 40 highway. My daily drive is 33 miles each way. Most of it highway (30 miles). My real life numbers are more like 40 city/ 55 highway. I typically average: 53-54 mpg on the roundtrip with no traffic in summer (70's), 50 mpg now that the weather is cooler (40's). With the V it's really easy to exceed the EPA estimates (by about 10 mpg), by just driving between 60-65 mph on the highway. We did a 2000 mile trip in August and got an average of 48 mpg with A/C use and big elevation gains (Seattle to Yellowstone and back - seal level to 7000 ft). The V excels on the highway because of two big things: 1) less power 2) final transmission gear ratio.
Indicated vs Calculated MPG
The Prius also tends to be optimistic by about 3-5%. To be accurate you have to fill them up consistently every time (ie. fill until the nozzle clicks and no more). Even an extra 1/4 of a gallon will skew your mpg calculations.
I'm very interested to see how well the C-Max does as more drivers report real world mpg's. I think that at this stage most drivers are new to the unique hybrid learning curve. Just like the Prius, there will be some who "just drive" it and those who hypermile. I will continue to monitor how this evolves over the next 6 months to a year as we make our decision.
Either way, I think that competition will help improve all of these hybrids in the long run.
Big kudos to Ford for putting out a great contender out there!
I almost forgot.... Please sign up on Fuelly.com and post your fillups there. It helps everyone. If you are interested, look me up under the 2012 Prius V as "skwcrj".
J.D Power rankings
in Articles, News & Reviews
Posted
With a big enough tank, just about anyone can hit 600 miles per tank. The true challenge is to do it with a smaller fuel tank. If I had put in as much as you did to reach 600 miles, I would be in the mid 700 to almost 800 miles! :hysterical: Since the C-Max Hybrid is closer in size to the Gen-III Prius Lift Back, you guys are way behind! :rockon:
I'm just having fun with you guys! I'm glad that the warm weather and learning curve is helping you get the EPA estmates. Keep up the good work. :)