Lithium ion concern

[RetiredJohn]

Anyone concerned that Lithium-ion batteries are being reviewed for the Boeing fiasco?  Interesting story,

http://www.cntraveler.com/daily-traveler/2013/01/lithium-ion-battery-fires-on-airplanes-boeing-787-012913?mbid=nl_daily_traveler

[MikeB]

John, there's lots of different chemistries for Lithium batteries. Some are more vulnerable to thermal runaway, some are not. As it turns out, the most vulnerable chemistries are also the ones with the highest energy density. So Boeing used that chemistry, as did Tesla. Virtually nobody else in the EV industry does, so the batteries in our C-Max's have a lower energy density but are much safer.

 

Personally, I'm far more worried about that 14 gallons of gasoline sitting behind me, given how many regular cars burn to a crisp on a daily basis.

[J**2]

The information provided is a little disconcerting. I wonder how many of the battery fires are SHORTS of the battery stored alone and how many are spontanious fires of batteries on a device. Any battery that shorts will potentially start a fire as low resistance and high current capacity would be a problem. I use an Ecig and had a spare battery in my pocket once with change. It shorted and produced a rather funny dance on my part.

 

Now I use a battery case and have had no futher incidents.

 

Moral ........ use a battery case to prevent shorts from incidental metal contact.

[valkraider]

The batteries made for the dreamliner are low volume custom builds, in which the process is subject to much more variability than in a large volume standardized process.   The two batteries in question are fairly close in serial number so it could have been some anomaly in a certain batch of manufacturing.

 

However, I feel no worse about carrying around a Lithiom ion based battery than I do a tank full of gasoline...  Either are no fun when they burn.  Unless you are Eddie's uncle Gus...

[valkraider]

You Only Live Once

[SBGrad]

It is interesting that Ford had NiMH batteries in their earlier generations of hybrids (like the Escape) and went to Li-Ion for the newer vehicles.  I can see why they did it, the NiMH batteries don't have the power to move the car at 62MPH like we can do in the C-Max.  

 

...and I understand that there are different types of chemical make ups of Li-Ion batteries, the 787 has Li-CoO2 (Lithium Cobalt Oxide) which have the most energy and are also the most prone to thermal runaway (from what I've read, YMMV).  I've done some searching and haven't been able to figure out what the exact chemistry of the C-Max battery is.  

 

In any event, I'm not super worried about it.  Our battery is the same as the Fusion hybrid, and there are far more of them that 787 batteries, they been operated for far more hours than the entire fleet of 787s.   I'm pretty sure that if there was something wrong with the type of battery that Ford is producing, we'd have seen it by now.  That's one other difference between Ford and Boeing.  Boeing gets its batteries from a sub contractor-- Ford has its own battery plant.

[C-MaxJaxon]

They have nickel-manganese-cobalt oxide batteries.

 

http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11705/

[Joey]

I talked to my brother who does Li battery research before buying this car and his opinion was that with the loads it is intended to handle it should be as good as NiMH in terms of stability and safety.  Personally I am more worried about a controller problem rather than the battery itself.

[SBGrad]

They have nickel-manganese-cobalt oxide batteries.

 

http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11705/

 

Very informative page, thanks for posing the link.

[SBGrad]

 

OT, but I'll see your YOLO, and raise you Nancy SInatra singing a Bond theme...

[valkraider]

Some more info about the types of batteries used by Boeing and the investigation in general.

 

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/01/boeing-787-battery-design-musk/

[Maximus]

Ford’s Battery Gives it the Edge Over Prius, Volt

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/11/08/fords-battery-is-gives-it-the-edge-over-prius-volt/

[Themoo]

Since Boeing has withdrawn their lithium batteries from the Dreamliner, a Ford spokesmen should make a statement relating to the safety of their lithium batteries. I would like to buy a C max, but I would be very concerned about parking it in my garage unless I know it's not going to catch fire and more importantly, catch my house on fire. We can all speculate as to the safety, but there is a reason why other companies are not embracing the lithium battery.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Themoo

[darrelld]

Since Boeing has withdrawn their lithium batteries from the Dreamliner. A Ford spokesmen should make a statement relating to the safety of their lithium batteries. I would like to buy a C max, but I would be very concerned but parking it in my garage unless I know it's not going to catch fire and more importantly, catch my house on fire. We can all speculate has to the safety, but there is a reason why other companies are not embracing the lithium battery.

 

The Hyundai Sonata Hybrid has used Lithium batteries since its introduction as a 2012 model without incident.

[valkraider]

Tesla has had them in their cars since 2008.

 

We also have had them in computers, phones, iPods, tools, and other things for a decade or more...

 

There is a right way and a wrong way to bud things. Boeing's batteries appear to be the wrong way. There is a ton of info about this.

 

Ford took a better approach, details linked to various times.

[plus 3 golfer]

Since Boeing has withdrawn their lithium batteries from the Dreamliner, a Ford spokesmen should make a statement relating to the safety of their lithium batteries. I would like to buy a C max, but I would be very concerned about parking it in my garage unless I know it's not going to catch fire and more importantly, catch my house on fire. We can all speculate as to the safety, but there is a reason why other companies are not embracing the lithium battery.

Do you have some inside information??? or are you speculating. :)  Could the reason be costs???

[ptjones]

Volt uses Lithium-ion battery and they problems after crashes, few days later. Our battery is smaller.

[C-MaxSea]

"Since Boeing has withdrawn their lithium batteries from the Dreamliner"

 

That would be headlines here in Seattle if it were so. Me thinks you mean Airbus and the A-350. Not that it won't be a headline here tomorrow if the engineers at Boeing pull a 180. Nevertheless, probably irrelevant to us and the batteries in the C-Max.

 

Nick

Edited February 17, 2013 by C-MaxSeattle

[valkraider]

Volt did not exactly have problems after a crash. At least not which would be relevant to an owner.

 

The organization which was crash testing did not use the proper procedures and left the car in a dangerous state which caught on fire several days later.

 

GM (and all auto manufacturers who make hybrids) publish the safety information about what must be done to a car after damage occurs to the battery.

 

If you are worried, after a crash that damages your battery - don't take the car home and make sure that the recovery company who tows away the car follows Fords procedures...

 

Seriously, people here probably have 100 lithium ion batteries in their house... These are not new things.

[darrelld]

This article investigates a Volt completely demolished after a speeding Camry smashed into it.

 

Camry caught fire but the Volt did not.

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/chevy-volt-virtually-demolished-did-not-catch-fire-46583/

 

Edited February 17, 2013 by darrelld

[ptjones]

Volt batteries caught fire a few days later when they got moister in them.

[CNCGeek]

I don't expect my Cmax to burst into flame anytime soon (though I have nothing to base this on since I cannot seem to find much info on the pack - even if it uses 18650 cells or some other size).  A bigger concern for me is if there will be degraded performance over time (especially with exposure to heat in the summer). The Emergency Response Guide mentioned the following:

 

"Thermal Sensors — In the event the battery is exposed to extreme hot

ambient conditions and/or is being driven extremely aggressively with

compromised cooling, power limits will be employed to prevent overheating.

However, if the battery is in use and does become too hot, contactors will

be opened and the vehicle will shut down. In some instances, if the ignition key

is left in the “ON” position, this could cause the high-voltage battery

temperature to exceed 60°C (140°F); if this temperature is reached, the

thermal sensors located near the high-voltage battery will automatically

disable the high-voltage battery."

 

140°F seems like a lot, however a sealed up vehicle can get up to that and more according to this article - which described a test performed by the Phoenix Fire Department to demonstrate the conditions inside a card parked with windows up on a 100°F day:

 

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/07/23/20100723phoenix-fire-department-cars-summer-tips.html?nclick_check=1

 

Unfortunately based on the way the C-max starts the engine, a shutdown battery means a shutdown Cmax.  Obviously Ford has tested the car in the heat and I read somewhere they even tested in Phoenix, but it still makes me a bit concerned about the summer temps and how this car will tolerate the heat.

[darrelld]

Plus 3 Golfer and other North Texas members here will put the C-Max battery under a heat test this summer. Triple digits are the norm.

[ptjones]

I'm sure they tested them at the Yucca FORD Proving grounds off I40 in western Arizona. I have driven by and flown over many times.  They will use I40 for testing Ford trucks towing their funny trailers too.

[TurtleMax]

Ford uses Sanyo (Panasonic) LiOn batteries in C-Max and Fusion hybrid. They have the most mature and advance battery production process. That's the most reliable battery you want in your car.

 

http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releases/panasonic-to-supply-lithium-ion-battery-cells-for-ford-motor-companys-hybrid-and-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles-140289203.html