MY CMAX is a lemon

[plus 3 golfer]

We'll likely never see model data unless we pay for it or if such a model stands out from the data (the C-Max) and such is released for its "dramatic" effect which one can argue should not be done without fully explaining the driving data behind the results.  The IQS data is IIRC in the first 90 or so days of ownership.  The complaint data is IIRC last 3 years only.  It can be a problem comparing model data if a model is not at least 3 years old.  

 

Statistics are not precise for obvious reasons and there are many statistical tests that can be performed on the data that give additional insight into the data which we don't see.  But the top level statistics do serve a purpose.  I always say statistics are only a tool to be used in decision making.  The internet provides easy access to an abundant resource on cars and most other products.  Surveys are likely the only way the consumer is going to find out about the extent to which products have issues.  Manufacturers aren't going to provide the data freely.  I also believe such survey results push the manufacturers to improve their products.

 

But Eve, did mom know how her kids compared to all kids.  That's the reason to randomly sample all kids and compare groups of kids to the averages.  Data and statistics can be manipulated and  presented to appear more / less favorable.  But when several different reputable sources reach similar conclusions, one should accept the sources as reliable, the data being correctly gathered / interpreted, that changes are explained within the context of margin of error / confidence level and so forth. There are simply too many groups doing independent surveys / statistical analysis of data for one to publish out-of-context results and not get hammered  by others (and sued by manufacturers and so forth).  Even in political polls, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CNN and so forth seem to always show similar results. Some may hold off making a call longer than others though.  Statistics should be used to make better judgments / decisions and reasonable / fair arguments.  IMO, to pooh-pooh statistics out of hand likely shows a biased agenda because one doesn't like the results.

[Kelleytoons]

Or just someone who minored in Math (I will bow to anyone with an advanced math degree, however.  You?)

[C-MaxSea]

perhaps a bit of apples and oranges here (actually more like 'hard' boiled eggs to 'soft' boiled eggs - one is smushier) . 

 

There are statistics about factual data (how many eggs does a specific bird species lay on average, car sales .............quantitative stuff), and there are statistics about impressionistic data (Initial Quality Surveys, customer satisfaction surveys..................qualitative stuff).  Factual data statistics are relatively 'hard' science, and Impressionistic data statistics are at best 'soft' science.  They are all about human psychology, what we read, what we see on TV, our impressions, our perceptions ............................. That is why most of us naturally question such statistics and know they are weak at best.  Yes IQSs are about the 'quality' of an item, but taken when folks are still getting acquainted with the new item and extremely subject to impressions - and the more 'new' & complex the item, the more confused and unreliable the answers.  (((Did Ford 'improve' on the 2014 C-Max, of course they did, but not by the number differentials in the 'survey data.'  Is the 'improvement' shown by the C-Max a true reflection of Ford's better 'attention to details' in 2014 - at best 50/50 in my book; buyers have just become better acquainted with the product and a bit better at evaluating it.  The bottom line is that the C-Max was just as great a car when it came out MY 2013 as it is in MY 2014 - and 99.99 % the same car.)))

 

Again, the difference between 77% for the Audi and 86% for the Mercedes says as much about the buyers of the cars as it does about the manufacturers - and dare I say, is relatively meaningless (& car model surveys a bit less meaningless  ;) (i.e. more meaningful) ).  Drop a 60% or a 95% in there and I'll take note. 

 

Thankfully cars are still somewhat visceral purchases, and not just a statistical purchase; and a 77% Audi may end up a 'better' purchase for some than an 86% Mercedes - for whatever reasons.

 

Just my 2 cents,  Nick

 

((( as a consumer, taking new car model surveys & customer satisfaction surveys with a fair measure of caution - regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable. )))

Edited August 31, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[ptjones]

That sums up my initial thoughts.  The lady complained of mpgs "in the 20s" in the freezing Indiana winter.  No amount of grill covers or highway sweet spots is going to raise that up to 47.

I had a 2003 Diesel Jetta Wagon and sometimes it wouldn't run when it got real cold.  Most VW Diesels don't get 50mpg on the Hwy which is better than 42mpg EPA.  The Worst MPG's I have gotten on a tank with temps below zero is 36mpg with grill covers and my jetta diesel would not have been running. IMO :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

 

Or just someone who minored in Math (I will bow to anyone with an advanced math degree, however.  You?)

 

My degrees (BSEE MBA) and training including graduate level courses in applying statistics to real data like - designing components, systems to meet reliability targets using real failure data at certain confidence levels - are not relevant.

 

What is relevant is that I will call into question / critique posts that I highly doubt are correct and can't be backed up with hard evidence.  In order to make a worthy point without hard evidence, one needs to gather circumstantial facts and make a sound argument defending their position / statement.  The internet is full of statements that posters "state as true, that they hope are or want to be true" likely because they don't like the results of something. I'm not talking about posters' opinions like whose going to be the next President of the US but about discrediting results.  Also, potential issues with conducting surveys are well known.  But stating such potential issues doesn't mean that a specific survey is faulty and is a poor basis for an argument to make a point. I'm not an expert in statistical mathematics but I do know a little about using results of statistical analysis for reporting and management of risks.  

 

The last 5 years of my career was heading up our risk management group with several employees working for me with PhDs in Physics applying statistical analysis to our portfolio of market assets.  The CAO and I drafted much of the sections (referenced below in Ford's 10K) for our annual 10K.  I'm sure Ford uses more survey data than we can imagine in assessing / managing risks.  Take the Infineum World fuel surveys as an example as I know Ford reported using these surveys to NHTSA with respect to their diesel vehicles.  Note the small sample sizes in various countries.

 

Here's the link to Ford's 2013 10K which is primarily a discussion of  results and risks facing Ford.  Statistical analysis (including market based surveys, projections and so forth) plays a key role in assessing / managing risk and the success of a company.  See  ITEM 1A. RISK FACTORS  (page 10) - "We have listed below (not necessarily in order of importance or probability of occurrence) the most significant risk factors applicable to Ford and Ford Credit:..."

 

and 

 

ITEM 7A. QUANTITATIVE AND QUALITATIVE DISCLOSURES ABOUT MARKET RISK (page 43) - "We are exposed to a variety of risks in the normal course of our business. Our financial condition depends on the extent to which we effectively identify, assess, monitor, and manage these risks." 

 

I'm done with this survey subject. :)  :)

Edited September 1, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Cmax lover]

Today I found my CMax with dead battery again in the garage.  This is the 3rd time. Starting a buyback from Ford.  Very upsetting because it can't be trusted.  Also, unsafe. My 2013 CMax SE was manufactured Nov., 8, 2012.

[DaveofDurham]

My degrees (BSEE MBA) and training including graduate level courses in applying statistics to real data like - designing components, systems to meet reliability targets using real failure data at certain confidence levels - are not relevant.

 

What is relevant is that I will call into question / critique posts that I highly doubt are correct and can't be backed up with hard evidence. In order to make a worthy point without hard evidence, one needs to gather circumstantial facts and make a sound argument defending their position / statement. The internet is full of statements that posters "state as true, that they hope are or want to be true" likely because they don't like the results of something. I'm not talking about posters' opinions like whose going to be the next President of the US but about discrediting results. Also, potential issues with conducting surveys are well known. But stating such potential issues doesn't mean that a specific survey is faulty and is a poor basis for an argument to make a point. I'm not an expert in statistical mathematics but I do know a little about using results of statistical analysis for reporting and management of risks.

 

The last 5 years of my career was heading up our risk management group with several employees working for me with PhDs in Physics applying statistical analysis to our portfolio of market assets. The CAO and I drafted much of the sections (referenced below in Ford's 10K) for our annual 10K. I'm sure Ford uses more survey data than we can imagine in assessing / managing risks. Take the Infineum World fuel surveys as an example as I know Ford reported using these surveys to NHTSA with respect to their diesel vehicles. Note the small sample sizes in various countries.

 

Here's the link to Ford's 2013 10K which is primarily a discussion of results and risks facing Ford. Statistical analysis (including market based surveys, projections and so forth) plays a key role in assessing / managing risk and the success of a company. See ITEM 1A. RISK FACTORS (page 10) - "We have listed below (not necessarily in order of importance or probability of occurrence) the most significant risk factors applicable to Ford and Ford Credit:..."

 

and

 

ITEM 7A. QUANTITATIVE AND QUALITATIVE DISCLOSURES ABOUT MARKET RISK (page 43) - "We are exposed to a variety of risks in the normal course of our business. Our financial condition depends on the extent to which we effectively identify, assess, monitor, and manage these risks."

 

I'm done with this survey subject. :) :)

+1 +1 +1 for +3

[Adrian_L]

I want to buy you a golf club!!

[kostby]

Following the link to the 2013 Ford 10K provided by Plus3Golfer...

 

Excerpt from the Ford 2013 10K, filed February 18, 2013 for the year ended December 31, 2012 

 

(Font Size, Italics, color, and boldface all modified by me.)

 

 

1A Risk Factors (on page 10 of the pdf document)

 

"Lower-than-anticipated market acceptance of Ford's new or existing products. Although Ford conducts

extensive market research before launching new or refreshed vehicles, many factors both within and outside Ford's

control affect the success of new or existing products in the marketplace. Offering highly desirable vehicles that

customers want and value can mitigate the risks of increasing price competition and declining demand, but vehicles that

are perceived to be less desirable (whether in terms of price, quality, styling, safety, overall value, fuel efficiency, or other

attributes) can exacerbate these risks. For example, if a new model were to experience quality issues at the time of

launch, the vehicle's perceived quality could be affected even after the issues had been corrected, resulting in lower sales

volumes, market share, and profitability. In addition, with increased consumer interconnectedness through the internet

and other media, mere allegations relating to quality, safety, fuel efficiency, corporate social responsibility or other key

attributes can negatively impact market acceptance, even where such allegations prove to be inaccurate or unfounded."

[ptjones]

Just an update on my CMAX lemon built in sept. 2012 with 73.6K miles, I LOVE it as much as Lemon  Meringue Pie, YUM! :love_shower: 

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

 

Following the link to the 2013 Ford 10K provided by Plus3Golfer...

 

Excerpt from the Ford 2013 10K, filed February 18, 2013 for the year ended December 31, 2012 

 

(Font Size, Italics, color, and boldface all modified by me.)

 

 

1A Risk Factors (on page 10 of the pdf document)

 

"Lower-than-anticipated market acceptance of Ford's new or existing products. Although Ford conducts

extensive market research before launching new or refreshed vehicles, many factors both within and outside Ford's

control affect the success of new or existing products in the marketplace. Offering highly desirable vehicles that

customers want and value can mitigate the risks of increasing price competition and declining demand, but vehicles that

are perceived to be less desirable (whether in terms of price, quality, styling, safety, overall value, fuel efficiency, or other

attributes) can exacerbate these risks. For example, if a new model were to experience quality issues at the time of

launch, the vehicle's perceived quality could be affected even after the issues had been corrected, resulting in lower sales

volumes, market share, and profitability. In addition, with increased consumer interconnectedness through the internet

and other media, mere allegations relating to quality, safety, fuel efficiency, corporate social responsibility or other key

attributes can negatively impact market acceptance, even where such allegations prove to be inaccurate or unfounded."

 

Exactly what I've been saying since I joined in Dec. 2012 when the FE fiasco started. Unfortunately, as I've stated many times although in other words - make a mistake (like error in judgement about using Fusion Hybrid test data for the C-Max Hybrid EPA numbers)  and you might be penalized for it for a long time even after it is corrected. We've seen the IQS improve significantly from 2013 MY to 2014 MY for the C-Max.  I hope we see the CR reliability surveys improve for MY 2013 as I believe many of the problems centered around navigation and MFT which have been corrected but it likely will take another year or two for the improved reliability data to show up in the surveys. There may not be enough MY 2014 data for CR to get meaningful results as it's introduction was in early 2014 and I believe the CR surveys may have ended already. 

[mlsstl]

"...In addition, with increased consumer interconnectedness through the internet and other media, mere allegations relating to quality, safety, fuel efficiency, corporate social responsibility or other key attributes can negatively impact market acceptance, even where such allegations prove to be inaccurate or unfounded." 

 

In the case of the C-Max, the stinks over the gas mileage representations and the battery problems have been neither "inaccurate or unfounded." 

 

In the gas mileage debacle, the issue did not start with social media but rather the traditional car review media, with Ford fessing up that they had not actually tested the car but rather borrowed numbers from another model in the lineup (which also ended up having its mileage rating downgraded.) No way that Ford can blame that one on the internet. 

 

The allegations concerning the battery issue are also well grounded, though admittedly the internet has the adversely impacted the ability of Ford (and other car companies with similar problems) to keep things quiet. It is standard corporate practice to minimize a problem and I don't have much sympathy for their decreased ability to play cover-up. Of course, everything has a downside, and in this case, they do have to worry about unfounded rumors. However, I can't think of a good example where Ford has been recently damaged by unfounded allegations so overall I think the new balance is a good one for consumers. 

[ptjones]

IMHO I don't think FORD was out of line borrowing Fusion Hybrids MPG numbers having driven both cars from my experience. I think FFH gets maybe 1mpg on HWY better and CMAX 1 MPG better in the City, they were very close. :)

 

Paul

[C-MaxSea]

......self censored...

 

Exactly right Paul, as Fusion Hybrid sales are stable (modest increase +2% for July, and up for the year), and C-Max Hybrid sales are off significantly from 2013 (-40+%), we continue to whip our beloved 'whipping boy'; in spite of the two having essentially the same track record.  C-Max can't do this, can't do that, unreliability nonsense, it never ends........................................  Sadly we/this forum matters, and occasionally we perpetuate premature info.

 

....self censored.....

 

Thankfully again, there are a few folks out there who can read past the silly statistics, the shouting above, the CR gods, and see a compelling & desirable car !

 

Nick

 

(Thankfully we are tracking battery & other issues as well in full measure)

Edited September 2, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[Jus-A-CMax]

Good Lord, you guys crack me up with flashing your MBAs and surveys -then self censored...  :lol:  Why must someone flash who they are - to make them more believable? It's like a cop flashing a badge...."see I am Cop - I am now more believable than thou... :worship:  kneel before MY MIGHTY shield"... :thumbsup:

 

I am sticking with the Op, I drive a lemon...thats the truth...I took a picture of it before I washed it tonight...

 

 

...to cook it. Thats my grill cover that I made similar to Paul and that is my Gas Pod...Lemon garlic chicken. Yum.

 

Yes, I drive a lemon and I ate it afterward....peace... :victory:

 

 

ps can we all relax and get along now...SHOW YOUR LEMONS!!!!

 

:shift:

Edited September 1, 2014 by Jus-A-CMax

[Kelleytoons]

Right, and the last thing *I'll* say here (and then I'LL be done with this topic -- that's always a really great line as if you never come back and read the rest of the comments <g>) is that public opinion polls like this are, as some certain poster made reference to, a whole lot like political surveys.  Which is to say they are mostly self-fulfilling prophecies that only have value IF you want someone else to tell you who to vote for.  If you don't (that is, if you want to make your own mind up) then they are, as I said, worthless.

 

+5 <bg>.

 

(I wonder why they don't sell more cars in a lemon color.  Oh, wait... )

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kelleytoons

[plus 3 golfer]

 ...

Edited September 1, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[MomsHugs]

This comment is on-topic so let's discuss the issue of a dead battery 3x in a Nov 2012 build. Personally, I would like to know exactly what the dealer has done to rectify this situation. Has the dealership replaced each battery to no avail? I would appreciate a post listing how the dealership responded to your battery problem each time. Thank you ~ MomsHugs/Eve

 

Today I found my CMax with dead battery again in the garage.  This is the 3rd time. Starting a buyback from Ford.  Very upsetting because it can't be trusted.  Also, unsafe. My 2013 CMax SE was manufactured Nov., 8, 2012.

[MomsHugs]

99.9% of consumers are not statisticians... nor even close to understanding what 'margin of error' means. Most, if not all, automobile consumers are merely looking for the best information before plunking down a huge chunk of change for a vehicle they need (as opposed to merely want). Before the Internet, we relied on word-of-mouth & reviews in car magazines, then we drove them & kicked the tires. We sure didn't worry about gas or how safe they were before seat belts were mandated! We thought nothing of going 80 mph down a 2-lane road inside a thin metal tube behind a blazing fire in a big box... with our kids fighting & bouncing around the back seat.

 

If someone says they miss the "good old days" when cars weren't so complex, I tell them this story. Within 6 mo. of buying our 1966 Mustang, my hubby swung his arm at our 2 toddlers fighting in the back seat & hit a parked car. When the damage was repaired, the dealer installed seat belts for front & rear seats. The kids were still a safety hazard for distracting the driver since they could still kick at each other. Today's cars are much safer - moms/dads can have hands-free phone conversations while their kids can watch videos/movies strapped in special safety seats. All things considered, we consumers are spoiled rotten!

 

Btw... my Mom probably worried too much about what other people thought of her kids (much like auto manufacturers do), but she was more worried about having her kids come back home to live (sorta like recalled). However, statistically-speaking, my Mom compared her kids to kids in similar large families... like my cousins... & considered parents of only 2 kids (like mine) had NO excuse if they had even 1 turn out rotten. 3+Golfer could probably explain how such statistical sampling works; i.e., small samples from similarly situated data... or something like that. 

Edited September 1, 2014 by MomsHugs

[Cmax lover]

This comment is on-topic so let's discuss the issue of a dead battery 3x in a Nov 2012 build. Personally, I would like to know exactly what the dealer has done to rectify this situation. Has the dealership replaced each battery to no avail? I would appreciate a post listing how the dealership responded to your battery problem each time. Thank you ~ MomsHugs/Eve

MomsHugs...........The first time it was towed to the dealer, they said they didn't know what was wrong and Ford had no answers.  Charged the battery, took it home and within a week, it happened again.  The second time, the dealer had it for 30 days and gave me a loaner car. They called and said there are 5 updates from Ford that they will try.  The service manager called and said my car was "done" and Ford wants me back in my car. .  They didn't say the car was fixed, just that the updates were done on it.  Drove the car for 2 weeks and yesterday found the car dead in my garage again. I have never had the battery replaced.  I think it's more of an issue of something draining the battery under certain circumstances (?) of which no one knows.  Since it's labor day, the dealer hasn't called back (left a message yesterday) and I have no car.  The service people at dealerships are basically baffled.  It's hard to understand what has taken Ford so long to figure this out.  I love my car, but it is unsafe and unreliable.  Starting a buyback process which I hate to go through...but no choice.

[C-MaxSea]

99.9% of consumers are not statisticians... nor even close to understanding what 'margin of error' means. ........................................

 

and exactly why statistics get misunderstood and misused; and more importantly why we should not be dwelling on the 'first 90 days', confused impressionistic survey data.  We have our own, better, 2 years worth of use data, issue monitoring and solutions right here.  

 

 

(( and dedicated forum space for battery issues with lots of excellent contributions from our own mech/tech/elec/ & process stars  :)  :) :) :) here ))

 

((( Not to mention we have drivers here who understand the beauty of being able to both fang their C-Max LEMON , and drive it for great MPGs.)))

Edited September 2, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[MomsHugs]

What does the acronym "FCOL" mean (haven't seen it before)?

 

... issue monitoring right here FCOL. 

[MomsHugs]

C-Max lover ~ I assumed you've already read the forum's "Batteries" topic section - if not, you'll find helpful posts there.

JMHO, but a face-to-face visit with your service dept. manager might be called for - copies of those posts in hand. Sounds like they could use the advice!

[MomsHugs]

MomsHugs...........The first time it was towed to the dealer, they said they didn't know what was wrong and Ford had no answers.  Charged the battery, took it home and within a week, it happened again.  The second time, the dealer had it for 30 days and gave me a loaner car. They called and said there are 5 updates from Ford that they will try.  The service manager called and said my car was "done" and Ford wants me back in my car. .  They didn't say the car was fixed, just that the updates were done on it.  Drove the car for 2 weeks and yesterday found the car dead in my garage again. I have never had the battery replaced.  I think it's more of an issue of something draining the battery under certain circumstances (?) of which no one knows.  Since it's labor day, the dealer hasn't called back (left a message yesterday) and I have no car.  The service people at dealerships are basically baffled.  It's hard to understand what has taken Ford so long to figure this out.  I love my car, but it is unsafe and unreliable.  Starting a buyback process which I hate to go through...but no choice.

 

Thanks, C-Max lover, for laying out your frustrating situation. Frankly, I've wondered if dealerships in general weren't pushing sales of the C-Max for fear their own service dept. would get stuck with a hybrid-plugin problem they couldn't fix & Ford wouldn't reimburse them sufficiently for all costs of trying. Service crews at dealerships have to be trained to service these hybrid-plugins. I wonder if some dealerships didn't want to pay for training expenses (cuts into service dept. profits), which would leave their crews trying to do it via online help with Ford techs. Nothing else would explain why they would need YOUR car for 30 DAYS... only for computer updates. Best of luck getting them to replace the battery right away - at the very least. Then I would listen carefully to the car when you turn it off & keep a careful log of everything from the way you drive to how you turn it off.

 

My neighbors warned me to turn my car off. They left their new Nissan Altima running several times & returned to find the battery dead. Their Altima has a push-button start & without the old-fashioned key, they plumb forgot to turn the car off! So, now I double-check that everything... including the radio/cd... is turned off before I get out of the car. Old habits are hard to break the older I get. :-(

[ptjones]

They should have replaced the 12v battery after the second time, it kills the battery to run it dead. IMO :)

 

Paul