Tire Noise

[plus 3 golfer]

Every 10k?  Is this something my dealer would do under routine maintenaince or do I have to request it?

 

I had the 5k thing done and at 13k I haven't done anything else, but I bought the "complete" package of care (so the dealer pays for all stuff for three years) and if this is something I should have done I'll take it to them soonest.

I don't know what is included in the "complete" package.  It might include The Works (see below), all fluids and any wear items (wiper blades, brakes, filters and so forth) for 3 years

 

But after that runs out, I believe most dealers offer the Quick Lane service for most routine maintenance - The Works for $39.95 which includes synthetic oil change, tire rotation and other tests and checks.  IIRC, full synthetic is around $80 (too high IMO).  I just got a coupon in the mail for a $10 rebate for The Works.  So, for 3 years, one should expect to pay around $120 (or less) using Ford's The Works.  About the only other maintenance items besides oil changes in 3 years are likely the cabin filter (20 k miles, IIRC) and maybe the air filter (40 k, IIRC).

 

If you can't do tire rotation yourself or don't get free tire rotation from a tire dealer, The Works is a very good price as tire rotation is likely around $5 - $10 a tire by itself at most other places.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

To keep this useful thread alive, I just bought my 2013 with 42k miles on it and had severe humming from the right rear, and a bit less so, but still very noticeable, from the left rear. My car tracks straight and rides well, just has a LOT more road noise than my wife's 2014 with 18k on it. She even commented on it, which for a non-car person like her to do highlights just how bad it is.

 

Anyway, increasing G-loads on either side while driving, and spinning each wheel/tire jacked up didn't indicate any odd wheel bearing noises, so I thought it safe to say the tires were the problem. All 4 corners have the same michelin energy saver green a/s tires, all now with 40psi per my personal preference, with relatively the same treadwear remaining in the centers tread blocks, so I'm guessing all 4 are originals that just weren't properly rotated. Both rears are more worn far more on the inside due to the increased rear camber, and both fronts are worn much more even, and of course are much quieter. 

 

Since I just put on 1k miles over the last couple of weeks and it's actually gotten a bit noisier, I figured I'd rotate them criss-crossed (LF to RR, RF to LR) and see if it improves it any. Not exactly what the manual says to do, but figured it can't hurt and would help me localize the noise. Turns out both rears now being on the front has moved all the road noise to the front, so it's definitely the tires. They should quiet down as they wear more even, but I'm sure it'll take awhile. 

 

The manual says we should rotate the tires every 10k miles. No idea when mine were last rotated, but it's definitely something I recommend doing regularly!

Exactly, the reason I got new tires at 48 k miles.  I had returned from a 5 k mile cross country trip and tire noise was unbearable on the trip at 75-80 mph.  I also rotated the tires but the noise followed the tires to the front.   I still had about 4/32 tread depth minimum on the tires but since we were planning another 5 k trip a months later I got new tires. :)

 

My "noticeable" noise started around 25 k miles or so and never improved with tire rotations. I rotate my tires every oil change. It just got worse with more miles.  I did have an alignment done at 27 k miles as the car was pulling slightly.  IIRC, the rear camber can not be adjusted.    I believe the rear camber setting simply causes excessive wear on rear tires that can not be fixed with an alignment. IIRC, there is a post on "fixing" the rear camber to mitigate this camber wear (camber is set to minimum spec).  So, IMO tire rotations really don't fix the issue.

 

 

 

[stevedebi]

Every 10k?  Is this something my dealer would do under routine maintenaince or do I have to request it?

 

I had the 5k thing done and at 13k I haven't done anything else, but I bought the "complete" package of care (so the dealer pays for all stuff for three years) and if this is something I should have done I'll take it to them soonest.

Tire rotation should be part of that package.

[SnowStorm]

My "noticeable" noise started around 25 k miles or so and never improved with tire rotations. I rotate my tires every oil change. It just got worse with more miles.  I did have an alignment done at 27 k miles as the car was pulling slightly.  IIRC, the rear camber can not be adjusted.    I believe the rear camber setting simply causes excessive wear on rear tires that can not be fixed with an alignment. IIRC, there is a post on "fixing" the rear camber to mitigate this camber wear (camber is set to minimum spec).  So, IMO tire rotations really don't fix the issue.

Here's the post about fixing the rear camber issue (may want to read the whole topic).  I agree that tire rotations won't fix inside edge wear but are essential to prevent cupping and the associated noise.  My theory was that the extra pressure that caused inside wear might also aggravate the cupping since my original tires had cupped on the inside edge only.  We may well run The Enterprise past 250k miles so I went ahead with the adjustable arms.  My Michelin dealer recommends rotation every 5000 miles and does it for free so I'm taking them up on it!  So far at almost 20k miles the new tires show even wear side to side, about 7/32 tread in center, 6 to 7 near the edges and no noise.  So I think it was all worth while.

[ptjones]

Here's the post about fixing the rear camber issue (may want to read the whole topic).  I agree that tire rotations won't fix inside edge wear but are essential to prevent cupping and the associated noise.  My theory was that the extra pressure that caused inside wear might also aggravate the cupping since my original tires had cupped on the inside edge only.  We may well run The Enterprise past 250k miles so I went ahead with the adjustable arms.  My Michelin dealer recommends rotation every 5000 miles and does it for free so I'm taking them up on it!  So far at almost 20k miles the new tires show even wear side to side, about 7/32 tread in center, 6 to 7 near the edges and no noise.  So I think it was all worth while.

What tire pressure are you using?I'm using 50 psi,  IIRC On my first set of tires the inside wore a little more because drivers side rear camber was off and had to replace camber suspension casting because they aren't adjustable. I did an alignment when replacing 2nd and third sets. I did crisscross tires to minimize cupping but the tires are pretty noisy by 4-3/32. ;) 

 

Paul 

[WNY]

i put my stock Michilens on new rims and reversed them from stock and swapped from front to back. OMG, they are noisy at low speeds. i need to get the alignment checked. I prolly have about 7/32  left after 30K miles runn about 46psi. I've put 10K on the car since last Aug. when I bought it. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by WNY

[ptjones]

i put my stock Michilens on new rims and reversed them from stock and swapped from front to back. OMG, they are noisy at low speeds. i need to get the alignment checked. I prolly have about 7/32  left after 30K miles runn about 46psi. I've put 10K on the car since last Aug. when I bought it. 

It will take atleast 5K mi. until the noise is better. ;)  Bin there, done it. ;)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

What tire pressure are you using?I'm using 50 psi,  IIRC On my first set of tires the inside wore a little more because drivers side rear camber was off and had to replace camber suspension casting because they aren't adjustable. I did an alignment when replacing 2nd and third sets. I did crisscross tires to minimize cupping but the tires are pretty noisy by 4-3/32. ;)

 

Paul 

They are at 45 psi now which is about what I usually use - has been higher at times.  My tire dealer says the undriven tires are prone to cupping (in the "bad ol' days" it was the fronts!).  I'm convinced that frequent rotations are essential to hold down the noise and wonder if Ford's 10k recommendation is often enough.  Proper alignment can sure prevent other wear problems but may not prevent cupping.

[WNY]

It will take atleast 5K mi. until the noise is better. ;)  Bin there, done it. ;)

 

Paul

 

Thanks! figured it would take a little bit.  Long trip planned in a few weeks, should put some miles on them.! 

[ptjones]

They are at 45 psi now which is about what I usually use - has been higher at times.  My tire dealer says the undriven tires are prone to cupping (in the "bad ol' days" it was the fronts!).  I'm convinced that frequent rotations are essential to hold down the noise and wonder if Ford's 10k recommendation is often enough.  Proper alignment can sure prevent other wear problems but may not prevent cupping.

Maybe 5K mi. could be better, but cupping maybe nature of the beast.  I will try to rotate more often to see if it makes a difference. :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

They are at 45 psi now which is about what I usually use - has been higher at times.  My tire dealer says the undriven tires are prone to cupping (in the "bad ol' days" it was the fronts!).  I'm convinced that frequent rotations are essential to hold down the noise and wonder if Ford's 10k recommendation is often enough.  Proper alignment can sure prevent other wear problems but may not prevent cupping.

I agree.

 

My rear camber is LR = -1.4* and RR = -2.0*.  Spec. is between -0.9* and -2.4*. IMO, the high negative camber caused my cupping and noise.  I suppose Ford is balancing cornering performance with tire wear and has chosen a high rear negative camber spec.  I do believe that reducing the negative camber to -0.9* (minimum spec) with the equipment you linked to would have reduced my cupping and extended my "tire life" (noise related) perhaps by 20%. The camber specs for the front are about 1* less negative than the rear.  

 

I believe that tire rotation (without reversing the tire on the rim) will likely not prevent cupping.  It's just not economical for me to pay to have the tires reversed at say $15 / $20 a tire every 10 k miles or less.  I also don't feel like rotating tire every few thousand miles myself  to see if more frequent rotation would help.  I replaced my OE tires at 48 k miles at Costco and took the car in at about 7.8 k miles on the new tires for rotation.  I went back to Costco after another 5.5 k miles and the tire tech said there wasn't enough miles on to rotate again. The tech said 10 k is Ford's schedule (as we know). I've got around 18 k miles with no cupping / noise issues yet on the new tires.

 

Also, just to be clear my tire cupping was actually very minor at 48 k miles but the noise was unbearable especially at very high speeds.  If I were just going to drive around town and at moderate speeds, I likely would have lived with the noise.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

I got 64k mi on first set, 65k on second set(not worn out, 3-4/32nd, but could take the noise) cupping was hardly noticeable. All in all I can live with these numbers. :)

"SnowStorm"  it will be interesting to see if you get better results.  

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

It would be interesting to list ones actual rear camber as measured during an alignment (to see the variance among C-Maxes), miles on tires, any tire noise (especially at high speeds where it is very apparent), and any cupping on the inside edges. 

[ptjones]

It would be interesting to list ones actual rear camber as measured during an alignment (to see the variance among C-Maxes), miles on tires, any tire noise (especially at high speeds where it is very apparent), and any cupping on the inside edges. 

That's interesting, I think my tire noise is the loudest 35-50 mph, which also varies with type of pavement. ;)  I will try to find my alignment specs. 

 

Paul

Edited April 3, 2016 by ptjones

[plus 3 golfer]

That's interesting, I think my tire noise is the loudest 35-50 mph, which also varies with type of pavement. ;)  I will try to find my alignment specs. 

 

Paul

Might be somewhat related to the frequencies we hear best also.  Pavement does make a big difference.  

 

I linked to a study in another post / thread on "road" noise (noise level outside of vehicle).  Engine noise dominates "noise" at low speed and pavement / tire noise dominates at high speeds.  I don't recall that aerodynamic noise ever dominates (maybe at a 100+ mph or so).  :)  The C-Max has the engine noise cancellation system and pretty good insulation so I don't hear a lot of engine noise. 

[ptjones]

Here are the numbers from my alignment with new tires. :)

Front camber -0.4*, -0.7*

          toe  .09*, 0.12*

Rear camber -2.0*, -1.6*

           toe  0.23*, 0.17*

  Total Toe 0.40*, Thrust Angle 0.03*

 

Paul

Edited April 5, 2016 by ptjones

[RobMax]

After having criss-crossed my very noisy tires I also recently increased the tire pressure to 45 PSI, which also helped decrease the tire/road noise I was experiencing. Depending on some other variables, and in an effort to increase MPG even more, I may increase tire pressure to 50 PSI and report back here with results. Hopefully I can abate the issue by continuing to rotate and overfill the tires. If not, I'll live with it till they're so worn I have to replace them. I'm cheap like that...

Edited May 7, 2016 by RobMax

[Roger Eastman]

I, too, have the noisy tire syndrome with my C-Max Hybrid, and I have read this thread looking for helpful information. I see lots of comments about people replacing their tires, but no mention of what tire brand, etc. that they replaced the originals with. I have always been a life long Michelin fan, but my experience with the C-Max has soured me on Michelins, and I blame them for the excessive noise. I am considering Continental TrueContact and Pirelli Cinturato P7 A/S Plus.

Comments ?

[SnowStorm]

Roger, do your tires have inside edge wear and/or cupping?  My first set (factory) had both but I hadn't rotated as often as I should have and my rear camber was at the max (tires tilting in at top).  The cupping was also on the inside edge.  I replaced the rear upper control arms with adjustable ones and got the tires sitting up almost straight - now at minimum spec.  With my second set  I'm rotating every 5000 miles since that is what my Michelin dealer recommends and they do it for free.  Also, I ask for the front-to-back swap sides as Ford recommends.  So far at 23,000 miles on the new set they look perfect with no noise - of course there's a lot more miles to go.  The problem might not be the tires (but I'm no tire expert).

[obob]

I, too, have the noisy tire syndrome with my C-Max Hybrid, and I have read this thread looking for helpful information. I see lots of comments about people replacing their tires, but no mention of what tire brand, etc. that they replaced the originals with. I have always been a life long Michelin fan, but my experience with the C-Max has soured me on Michelins, and I blame them for the excessive noise. I am considering Continental TrueContact and Pirelli Cinturato P7 A/S Plus.

Comments ?

 

Roger, it is nice for me to see you posting. The spare tire thread you started helped me a lot.

 

It may not be the tires.

 

My figuring is that the 2013 C-Max was unintentionally designed to have a camber problem in the rear which causes wear on the inside edge of the tires.  Lots of posts about this camber problem. This may be due to not calculating the suspension right due to the battery in the back.  I first rotated my tires at 12K miles and there was a terrible noise up front.  4K later I rotated them back and the terrible noise was gone, and a lesser noise was on the back.  My dealer thought I should leave them them on the front and let them even out but I could not stand it.  Reversing the tires on the wheel only helped a bit.  My last rotation I simply switched the back left to right and the noise changed, initially louder and just different which lets me know it is not a bearing.  I did not want the vibration up front for it is very loud and may not be good for my fragile transmission (early 2013 trans before modification have been having problems.) 

 

Just today I was in a parking lot and ran through some water and parked.  Looking at the wet tracks, I noticed there was one edge portion of each of my tires which simply did not touch the ground. ( worse for the back tires )  Turning somewhat allowed me to see all 4 tires tracks without overlap.

 

I am wonder if this may apply to your noise, or are you talking general tire noise like when they are new.  Does the sound change after a rotation ?

 

I have tried to get Ford to fix it under warranty but have met resistance and unreturned calls.

 

I have two new Michelin tires I will use to replace the fronts when they are worn enough.  I was actually surprised that the tires, getting close to the wear marks, are gripping rather well.  The rears besides the edge wear are like 80% after 25K miles.

 

So you (and I) may need an alignment and it may have to involve either a camber kit or an adjustable rear camber arm for the original arm is not adjustable.

 

My fronts wear evenly.

Edited May 8, 2016 by obob

[obob]

Roger, do your tires have inside edge wear and/or cupping?  My first set (factory) had both but I hadn't rotated as often as I should have and my rear camber was at the max (tires tilting in at top).  The cupping was also on the inside edge.  I replaced the rear upper control arms with adjustable ones and got the tires sitting up almost straight - now at minimum spec.  With my second set  I'm rotating every 5000 miles since that is what my Michelin dealer recommends and they do it for free.  Also, I ask for the front-to-back swap sides as Ford recommends.  So far at 23,000 miles on the new set they look perfect with no noise - of course there's a lot more miles to go.  The problem might not be the tires (but I'm no tire expert).

 

Did Ford pay for the arm or was that your expense ?

[SnowStorm]

I paid for it - never really thought about getting Ford involved - the alignment was "in spec" and I hadn't rotated them very often so doubt I would have had a case.  I paid about $220 for the arms (here they are) and $60 labor IIRC for my alignment guy to put them in.  You can get cheaper ones that are fixed but I wanted adjustable since I intend to go past 250k miles and never want to have that alignment issue again.  So far I'm totally happy about it.

[Roger Eastman]

My first rotation didn't cause much of a problem, noise-wise, but when I rotated next so that the original rears were turning the opposite direction, the noise became pronounced. I then rotated them back to the original positions and the noise lessened, but is still noticeable. When my car was new, it had defective wheel bearings, which were replaced under warranty. I have had my tire situation checked by FORD and 2 different tire dealers, and they think that the tires appear to be wearing normally.

 

I think that we may be overlooking the obvious: that these particular tires are second-rate. In TireRack's test of them, they did not do particularly well in any category. I am very disappointed in Michelin, that they would even produce such a mediocre tire. I must say, I am a card carrying Geezer (age 84), and I have owned over 100 vehicles, most of them rolling on Michelin tires, and I have never run into such pronounced noise coming out of  a set of tires, and being told that it is "normal".

 

BTW I A friend of mine has a 2013 C-Max Hybrid and the posted tire pressure is 38psi, while my 2014 is posted at 40 psi, so FORD must have had something in mind.

 

I'm still looking to hear from someone that has given up on the Michelins and replaced them with something else. . . .

I know there is another thread on this very subject, but the last time that I looked, there didn't seem to be any solid conclusions.

[ptjones]

I would raise your Tire PSI to 48-50 psi to lessen edge wear and I think alignment is very important.  Both of my sets of my Michelin sets of tires were noisy at 40-50K , but I got 64k out of them. BTW the Michelin's are good all around performance tires and get the Best MPG's. :)  I would recommend crisscrossing them so that they wear in both directions. :) 

 

Paul 

[stephengoldberger]

My Michelin tires have become progressively noisier as they have worn (now down to between 6/32 and 7/32 on three of them, the fourth, unfortunately, is new).  I think it is characteristic of the tire/chassis combination.  Noise is worst in the 35-50 mph range, and pretty much is gone at high speeds.  Tires are evenly worn and rotated as needed.