Transmission Leak

[stratosurfer]

Oh, and the centrifugal clutch is not really a clutch, it is a ‘breakaway/safety’ device. I suppose it would save the engine from catastrophic failure should the transmission fail and lock up, it would allow the engine to turn.

[SnowStorm]

Here's a list are of the parts replaced:

 

CV6Z 9448 A   :GASKET   1@13.02

5L7Z 7D285 A   :SEAL  -  SPECIAL   2@13.68

5L7Z 7J324 A  :RING   2@15.89

1S7Z 6379 AA :BOLT  -  HEX.HEAD   2@6.36

1S7Z 6379 AA :BOLT  -  HEX.HEAD   4@6.36

DG9Z 7550 A  :DISC ASY  -  CLUTCH  DG   1@142.55

DS7Z 19B596 A   :KIT  -  AIR CONDITIONING SY   1@34.73

DL3Z 19B596 B   :KIT   1@9.14

W711289 S300    :RIVET  PLASTIC   3@5.25

VC 3DIL B   :ANTI-FREEZE   3@13.32

FL 910S   :KIT  -  ELEMENT & GASKET  -  OIL F   1@4.99

XT 7 QCFT   :FLUID  -  TRANSMISSION   :4@19.95

XO 5W20 BSP   :MOTORCRAFT SAE 5W-20 SN SNP   5@2.95

 

The last and 3rd to last items are certainly ICE oil and filter which really bugs me since I had just changed oil and filter to Mobil 1 (as usual).  Why change those?

 

In asking about what was involved in the job, I was told that they also put in the latest "calibrations" which meant that it might shift differently until it learned my driving style (or some such comment).  I don't see why any new software would need to be loaded but who knows.  I also asked about the high voltage part of the job and was told it was a big deal - not sure what that meant.  The person I normally talk to wasn't there when I picked up the car - I think he would have given more substantive answers.

 

I wonder how many of these parts are truly required.  They asked me about changing the clutch saying it was "recommended" so I said yes to that one.  My old clutch looks fine (for all I know) except for a few scuff marks from, I suppose, metal parts that broke out of the hole.

[plus 3 golfer]

...

 

My view is that these transmissions were defective (design, manufacture, or both) and there is no need to blame driving style.

Where was I blaming driving styles? I am wondering why the transmissions fail at what seems to be a wide mileage range.

 

Based on the direction of rotation of the helical gears and the slanting of the teeth, the tangential (axial) torque on the shaft may apply more load towards the damper side of the case where the shaft bored the hole. We don’t know how the engineers determined the spec for the bearing but Ford engineers have been known to make errors. Perhaps, they failed to account for the frequency of certain driving styles which apply more thrust to the damper side more often and causing more wear. I am simply wondering why mileage varies when failure occurs. The supposition that there is a bad batch of bearings seems unlikely since the latest TSB covers 2013 through some 2016 MYs. Transmissions and virtually all part have a design life that should account for how the parts operate.

 

When one looks at the parts diagram, one sees the three gears on the transfer shaft which all spin in the same direction. Note the direction of the teeth on the gears. Two of the gears in normal driving supply power and torque to the transfer shaft. The other gear is to the differential and experiences the drag forces on the car, in essence the road load HP. These forces on the gears will apply axial forces on the shaft in different directions depending on driving modes: EV (regen or propulsion), ICE on / off, and so forth. See the note below that Ford sent customers in 14b07 clearly stating “under certain driving conditions, the transfer gear assembly bearing may fail prematurely.”

 

Ford note:

 

Under certain driving conditions, the transfer shaft gear assembly

bearing on your vehicle may fail prematurely. This can result in

thumping, rubbing, or grinding noises from the transmission, and

may be accompanied by the illumination of the powertrain fault indicator in the

instrument cluster (shown above to the right).

Edited May 4, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SnowStorm]

OK, bad choice of words.  Just thinking that we, obviously, shouldn't have to adjust how we drive to make our cars last.  It would be extremely difficult to stay out of EV and avoid regen or whatever Ford considers problematic.  My guess on the variability of lifetime is that its more likely caused by variation in part tolerance than driving conditions.  Ford's "Under certain driving conditions" might be true in a way but sounds rather like a cop-out statement - attributing the variability of failures to driving conditions.  I'm also thinking that its not really a faulty bearing per se (as with race or rollers) but some part that has moved on the shaft after which the bearing is "faulty" since it is no longer positioned properly.  An interference fit will always have a tolerance associated with it; tight and it lasts indefinitely, not tight enough and it goes 100k+, loose and it fails at 30k.  Or the steel is defective or improperly selected and relaxes over time with tolerances still coming into play.  Who knows.

[stratosurfer]

The bottom line for me is the Toyota Hybrid drives seem to last indefinitely... Ford has a definite design problem. This is the first Hybrid Drive that Ford went solo on without Aisin building it out for them. We can only hope they accurately fixed the issue in 2015 and later. Unfortunately we don't have any real-world high mileage post-2015 C-Max Hybrids to give us feedback, that I know of.

Edited May 9, 2019 by stratosurfer

[stratosurfer]

They did that oil change thing to me when I took it in for a diagnostic on the stuttering power liftgate a few months back. They couldn't accurately diagnose it other than to say that my 12V battery was original and needed to be replaced, and that could be the problem with the liftgate, so they didn't charge me the normal $150.00 diagnostic. I replaced the batt, that was not the issue with the liftgate... I did my Mobile 1 oil change about 4 weeks later to find a motorcraft oil filter on the ICE, when I put a Mobile 1 on there. Seems that the dealers nowadays are really setting the future on the service side of the business as profit in vehicles has gotten thin. I as well am considerably perturbed that they changed at least my oil filter, no idea about the oil itself as I wasn't charged and had no invoice. My service writer is a female, sweet gal... :)  So I'm getting more comfortable having an independent trans shop do my R&R job.

[SnowStorm]

For general interest, here are some links that you may have seen before:

• WeberAuto video of transmission gears and motors
• Old article about Ford's transmission assembly plant with a nice video of transmission assembly

I couldn't find the planetary gear system when I took mine apart - the WeberAuto video shows its location on the ICE input shaft.  Its just about the smallest part of the whole thing!  Amazing that all the torque from the ICE goes through that assembly not much bigger than a hockey puck.  I can't get mine out because the motor rotors wont budge.

[SnowStorm]

The "new" transmission in The Enterprise is still purring along after 4000+ miles so we're down to less than a dollar per mile!

 

BTW, the dealer listened to my sob story about how I lost a brand new Mobil 1 oil change and sent me a check to cover the oil - $22 odd bucks I think it was.  So total cost of repair comes down to $3435.  Maybe I should go back to Ford with this lower figure!

[xvitaria]

Hi, I think that my transmission is going to die :( It kicks every time i step on breaks and release, it feels like it have a little free play inside. Also I clearly hear bad sound from engine bay when ICE starts and I think this sound comes from transmission. There are no sounds while driving in ev mode. Any advices plz.

Edited September 18, 2019 by xvitaria

[ptjones]

How many miles do you have on your car. I'm in Newnan,GA and if you were nearby I could check it out for you. With mine it was louder with ICE on compared to EV.

 

Paul

[xvitaria]

How many miles do you have on your car. I'm in Newnan,GA and if you were nearby I could check it out for you. With mine it was louder with ICE on compared to EV.

 

Paul

Thanks for your reply, I have about 110k miles.

P.s. Georgia is country in Europe near Russia :) not US State.

[ptjones]

LOL, you didn't have that on your profile.

 

Paul

[pomtrey]

We had to have our transmission replaced on our 2013 CMax at 55,000 miles in October 2019 and it was because of that leak. Luckily we had the extended warranty so all was covered, but it was a kick in the teeth.

[ptjones]

We had to have our transmission replaced on our 2013 CMax at 55,000 miles in October 2019 and it was because of that leak. Luckily we had the extended warranty so all was covered, but it was a kick in the teeth.

I'm confused, you got a brand new transmission for free - warranty cost and that is a kick in the teeth?  I would be excited that the car had a new transmission, cars worth more. :)

 

Paul

[ArthurAL]

On 4/8/2019 at 5:20 PM, kyledamron1 said:

Ironically, Maxwell 2.0 (My 2017 Energi) I noticed a strange noise when you're using the regen braking. Didn't happen in my old one and thought it wasn't quite right. Checked DTCs and found a C42400. Wasn't sure what it meant and neither did dealers. Took it to the shop and they put it up on the lift to find a leak. 38,300. Going to be investigating further and I'll post an update when I learn more.

Hi @kyledamron1

Any news since 9 months? I got the same DTC this morning..

 

Edit: a temperature sensor to replace..

Edited February 4, 2020 by ArthurAL
Update

[rowekmr]

Very informative thread thanks for posting.

Are these issues with both hybrid and the Energi transmissions?

 

I just got a 2013 C-Max Energi that makes noises at idle when ICE is running and trying to do my own research. I dropped the car off at Ford today and will wait to see what they diagnoses.

Edited February 7, 2020 by rowekmr

[bigqueue]

On 2/6/2020 at 11:38 PM, rowekmr said:

Very informative thread thanks for posting.

Are these issues with both hybrid and the Energi transmissions?

 

I just got a 2013 C-Max Energi that makes noises at idle when ICE is running and trying to do my own research. I dropped the car off at Ford today and will wait to see what they diagnoses.

I have been told the bad transmission problem called out in the Ford Technical Service Bulletin does not present itself when the car is standing still....so it does not sound as though your noise is that standard BAD transmission problem, which might be a very good thing.

 

 

[kyledamron1]

Sorry forgot to update. Transmission replaced under warranty.

[plus 3 golfer]

34 minutes ago, kyledamron1 said:

• Sorry forgot to update. Transmission replaced under warranty.

Thanks for the update.  So, sure sounds like noise, oil leak have the symptoms of the the transmission bearing issue.  Do you know if the leak was the transfer shaft boring a hole through the case?

 

Anyways there goes the theory (really hope) that Ford solved the problem in later MY vehicles as we have a MY 2017 transmission replaced.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[fbov]

2 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

... we have a MY 2017 transmission replaced

Let's be fair. If you make enough of anything. you'll eventually get a bad one. This is an early failure (38.3K) in an Energi, which were not implicated initially. It might be something different. 

Frank

[kyledamron1]

No, I don't think it was a bearing noise or anything. It sounded like the fluid leaked out. Gasket could have gone bad? They said that one of the gears inside of the transmission stripped itself when the oil leaked. Only really noticed the leak because the under-body cover was collecting it.

[SnowStorm]

8 hours ago, kyledamron1 said:

No, I don't think it was a bearing noise or anything. It sounded like the fluid leaked out. Gasket could have gone bad? They said that one of the gears inside of the transmission stripped itself when the oil leaked. Only really noticed the leak because the under-body cover was collecting it.

There was a TSB 15-0174 that described a sealant failure / fluid leak problem in 2013/14 models.  Maybe the problem came back.

[kindtech]

Excellent thread...provided source of input shaft oil seal--the first non-TSB part I've located yet for the HF-35 eCVT!  I've diagnosed a 2013 Fusion SE Hybrid's transmission metallic rubbing noise during ICE operation (in Park and to varying degrees other positions), not associated with axle motion, as being most likely due to a worn input shaft bearing.  So it should definitely not require replacing the transmission as long as I can locate a source of the input bearings.  That's been a big challenge. 

 

You have what I consider the Holy Grail of such a repair--a non-serviceable eCVT with a different problem!  So if you have any interest in unloading parts 38-42 in the transmission list (input shaft bearings and gear), I'm definitely interested.  Part 40, the final drive input gear, is probably not required but would be nice to have with the bearings to test the assembly for smooth operation.  If nothing else, having the gears in hand should make it easier to source new parts.

 

Kudos to you for the cost-effective resurrection of a car you love--and even getting some satisfaction after-the-fact for a mechanic's wasteful propensities!

[SnowStorm]

How many miles on the car?  Any abnormal sounds when moving or in EV mode around 35 mph?  Why do you suspect the input bearings?  There is a "clutch" between the ICE and transmission that potentially could have broken parts.

 

Here's someone who says they have the filter - the picture doesn't look like mine but they claim its a generic picture (??).

[pureenergi]

Hey everyone, thanks for this very detailed thread and it's great to be back again but I'm here for all the wrong reasons: just took my 2013 Energi (purchased 6/1/2013 so probably affected by the RTV sealant issue) in to the original Ford dealer for an 80k mile service.  They noted a transmission leak that I'm now reading here might end up being very serious.  I couldn't leave the car all day so I had them top up the fluid and said I'd schedule it when I could bring the car in and leave it for a day.  Car has 80k miles, of which 52,000 are EV miles and 11300 are regen miles.  I brought the car in to my service center about what I thought was a grinding noise from the brakes but now I'm reading may be the "thumping, rubbing, grinding" issue.  They found no brake issues today.  I'm trying to prepare for the worst - I'll know more after I leave it with them for a day though.

I guess I'm currently in the "bargaining" stage of grief and loss, so I'm thinking:

• Can't I just keep adding transmission fluid?  YouTube video on how to change C-Max trans fluid

• How will I know when fluid is low?  I guess I can monitor trans fluid temps and keep extra in the car and a tube and an allen wrench to be able to add more, but this isn't a good solution for road trips . . . 

• If my issue is the TSB regarding RTV sealant failure (since I don't have transmission noise that I can tell) what have people paid for out of warranty service for this, given that you have to remove engine and trans to do it? RTV Sealant TSB

 

I'm hoping that the repair doesn't get up to the $7,000 repair cost range, because that could end up in some hard decisions being made . . . thanks for any help and I'll add my experience of what the actual issue is when I can leave it with my dealer for a day.

 

(EDIT: Taking it in today and leaving it for at least a day, I'll report back on what they find)

Edited September 10, 2020 by pureenergi
Added taking it in for service again the next day