VW & Audi to recall 500,000 diesels - Software detected, tricked EPA tests

[stevedebi]

 

"You can't really ban these cars from being driven because of the harm it would cause on the innocent owners of those vehicles."

 

States that do an emission test (CA,TX,etc) every year will quickly get them off the street.

In TX no inspection ='s no license plate.

Speaking as a Texan, they won't likely care. Not even a CARB state. I think they will hold off anything drastic until VW tries a real fix.

 

I note that they use OBD-II only unless the car is 1995 or less.

[markd]

Who would be surprised if other auto makers are doing the same thing, including Ford,I wouldn't.

[ptjones]

How many states actually check Diesel emissions? I looked but couldn't find anything. :) 

 

Paul 

[raadsel]

I found this article by Wired rather interesting: The Real Winner in the VW Diesel Scandal? Hybrid Cars

[C-MaxSea]

I found this article by Wired rather interesting: The Real Winner in the VW Diesel Scandal? Hybrid Cars

Good article.  Clearly hybrids & EVs should benefit here in the USA, with diesel carrying only 3% of the auto market.  The story will unwind much differently in the EU where 50% (?) of cars are diesels (most polluting ones); and some governments being co-owners and beneficiaries (&/or subsidizers) of those industries. An incestuous brew for better or worse.  (((The 'elephant' in both 'rooms' being trucks & marine perhaps slipping under the radar ???)))

Edited September 28, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[SnowStorm]

We might take issue, though, with one statement in that interesting article:

 

"Those cost curves will cross at some point, and hybrids will become the better deal, offering the same fuel economy for less money."

 

I think the curves have already crossed.  Per fueleconomy.gov for 2015, the first 21 cars sorted for best combined MPG (in a combined list of hybrids and diesels) are all hybrids.  Price?  VW Jetta diesel - 27K,  C-Max - 25k.

 

Still insisting that diesel is "best for highway"?  Sorted on Highway the top 4 are hybrids!

[raadsel]

We might take issue, though, with one statement in that interesting article:

 

"Those cost curves will cross at some point, and hybrids will become the better deal, offering the same fuel economy for less money."

 

I think the curves have already crossed.  Per fueleconomy.gov for 2015, the first 21 cars sorted for best combined MPG (in a combined list of hybrids and diesels) are all hybrids.  Price?  VW Jetta diesel - 27K,  C-Max - 25k.

 

Still insisting that diesel is "best for highway"?  Sorted on Highway the top 4 are hybrids!

 

The one argument I'd make about this is that, with a Hybrid, to get the EPA highway mileage you typically can't go faster than about 65. Diesels do much better at meeting, and in cases even exceeding, their highway mileage when driving at 70 and above.

[ptjones]

Then you have to factor in the cost of diesel, but then there is the lose of FE with Temps in Hybrids. I think maintenance is more with a Diesel especially if you take it to the Dealer.  Not sure what the lose in the FE for VW Diesels is going to end up being when they reprogram them. Time will tell. ;) 

 

Paul 

[stevedebi]

The one argument I'd make about this is that, with a Hybrid, to get the EPA highway mileage you typically can't go faster than about 65. Diesels do much better at meeting, and in cases even exceeding, their highway mileage when driving at 70 and above.

I can vouch for that, my C-Max Energi gets 36 @75-80 MPH, our Passat gets around 42 on that same trip and speeds.

[C-MaxSea]

I can vouch for that, my C-Max Energi gets 36 @75-80 MPH, our Passat gets around 42 on that same trip and speeds.

 

IMO that is apples & oranges - the Passat is spewing out noxious lung damaging fumes.  I came back from Italy with bronchitis last Spring from the diesel fumes - no thanks!  Paris, Naples .................  are often choked with diesel fumes.  Without the urea / Nitrous Oxide recovery systems the diesels are killers - and how well do those urea systems actually work?  They are facing an enormous ugly health & financial challenge to undo decades of reliance on diesel. Yes they will 'engineer' their way out, but getting thirty years worth of polluting diesels off the road - not cheap or easy.

 

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/amid-vw-scandal-polluted-paris-asks-if-time-to-dump-diesel/

 

So glad we are into hybrids and electrics here instead of disgusting diesels,

 

Nick

(((controlled point pollution is always 'better' IMO than dispersed pollution concentrated over population centers, i.e. smog)))

Edited September 28, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[fbov]

Two things to consider.

 

The third car was actually a BMW X5. It passed, yet BMW stock dropped 10% on the rumor of a similar failure..

 

Hybrid and electric cars don't pollute less, they leave their pollution at the mine. There is a real environmental downside to all self-powered transportation machines. The only "warm fuzzy" is that the heavy metal pollution that results from neodymium mining will stay near the mine... in China. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[C-MaxSea]

and controlled / controllable point pollution (mine, factory) is always 'better' IMO than dispersed (tailpipe) pollution concentrated over population centers, i.e. smog.  I really, really, really don't like it down my throat, blocking the sun ...........................   Nick

 

PS:  As stated above, there are 30+ years (______ million) of none BMW X3 clean diesels out there in Europe to be 'fixed' or removed - yes they will engineer their way out, a very costly 30 year process (nightmare).  

Edited September 28, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[raadsel]

Then you have to factor in the cost of diesel, but then there is the lose of FE with Temps in Hybrids. I think maintenance is more with a Diesel especially if you take it to the Dealer.  Not sure what the lose in the FE for VW Diesels is going to end up being when they reprogram them. Time will tell. ;)

 

Paul 

 

I was talking pure MPG on long road trips, the diesel (at least currently) does give much better fuel economy. And this isn't just VW, the Chevy Cruze apparently does around 45 MPG at 70 mph -- and presumably it does have proper emissions controls.

 

Now, I'll agree that diesel tends to be more expensive, you are having to add Urea on a regular basis, and other maintenance costs are likely to be higher than a hybrid. The Chevy Cruze diesel may be a good car to compare in this instance.

 

 

IMO that is apples & oranges - the Passat is spewing out noxious lung damaging fumes.  I came back from Italy with bronchitis last Spring from the diesel fumes - no thanks!  Paris, Naples .................  are often choked with diesel fumes.  Without the urea / Nitrous Oxide recovery systems the diesels are killers - and how well do those urea systems actually work?  They are facing an enormous ugly health & financial challenge to undo decades of reliance on diesel. Yes they will 'engineer' their way out, but getting thirty years worth of polluting diesels off the road - not cheap or easy.

 

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/amid-vw-scandal-polluted-paris-asks-if-time-to-dump-diesel/

 

So glad we are into hybrids and electrics here instead of disgusting diesels,

 

Nick

(((controlled point pollution is always 'better' IMO than dispersed pollution concentrated over population centers, i.e. smog)))

 

Except it may be possible that there is an easy fix here for VW. They can make the car pass emissions tests, so it appears VW just needs to leave the emissions controls on all the time. The one issue I see with it is if the emissions controls cause other issues if they are left on all the time.

 

As for Urea, based on the test that were done, it does appear to be fairly effective -- emissions without urea appear to be at least 4 times higher. We know this because the Golf/Jetta emissions were typically 40x higher than the EPA limit per the test. By contrast, the Passat only was found to have emissions 10x higher than the EPA standards, and there were times in the testing when it apparently came close to the EPA standards -- times when the Golf/Jetta still had very high emissions. Assuming the same emissions software on both vehicles, it does appear the urea aids a lot, and makes it much easier to meet EPA standards.

[stevedebi]

 

IMO that is apples & oranges - the Passat is spewing out noxious lung damaging fumes.  I came back from Italy with bronchitis last Spring from the diesel fumes - no thanks!  Paris, Naples .................  are often choked with diesel fumes.  Without the urea / Nitrous Oxide recovery systems the diesels are killers - and how well do those urea systems actually work?  They are facing an enormous ugly health & financial challenge to undo decades of reliance on diesel. Yes they will 'engineer' their way out, but getting thirty years worth of polluting diesels off the road - not cheap or easy.

 

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/amid-vw-scandal-polluted-paris-asks-if-time-to-dump-diesel/

 

So glad we are into hybrids and electrics here instead of disgusting diesels,

 

Nick

(((controlled point pollution is always 'better' IMO than dispersed pollution concentrated over population centers, i.e. smog)))

Well, I don't disagree it is "apples & oranges" - the Passat is far better to drive and much more comfortable than our C-Max, and gets better MPG at high speeds. It is also lighter, if I recall correctly.

 

You should note that the VW diesel system will not allow the vehicle to run if it runs out of AdBlue fluid, so I don't see that part of your post as being valid.

 

I expect VW to get the problems fixed, and I expect a degradation of performance, and maybe MPG. Time will tell.

 

To each his own. I love our diesel, and so does my wife who drives it daily. The only thing I don't like about it is that the roofline is a bit low and I have to duck to get inside.

Edited September 28, 2015 by stevedebi

[C-MaxSea]

The topic is emissions.  ;)  Certainly, to each his own; IMO the C-Max Passat is far better to drive and much more comfortable than the Passat our C-Max.  Wacked my head several times on the 2014 Passat door frame the last time we rented one - very annoying, very uncomfortable.  All opinions.  That is why we wait for corrective action from VW before tooting their mpg horn.  Their diesel mpg claims are all polluted distortion at this point.

Edited September 29, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[stevedebi]

The topic is emissions.  ;)  Certainly, to each his own, and the C-Max Passat is far better to drive and much more comfortable than the Passat our C-Max.  Wacked my head several times on the 2014 Passat door frame the last time we rented one - very annoying, very uncomfortable..  All opinions.  That is why we wait for corrective action from VW before tooting their mpg horn.

Was that 2014 rental a diesel? It makes a difference to the driving dynamics.

 

It is going to be VERY interesting to me to see what VW does to fix the Passat TDI problem. I have no idea what they are going to do with their Jetta/Golf - it doesn't have AdBlue installed for past years, although I think they added it for 2016 (even before this stuff blew up in their faces). Hard to believe they will attempt a retrofit.

[Adrian_L]

I think there's some fuzzy logic here---I'm not sure what seat comfort or highway miles per gallon have to do with an argument about tailpipe emissions.

[HotPotato]

The industry blog "The Truth About Cars" has been covering the daylights out of this issue. To get an idea of how much power and MPG might suffer if the cars are brought into compliance, they looked at the adjustments GM made to the European-market Opel Zafira Tourer's Diesel engine to get it to pass US emissions so it could be installed in the US-market Chevy Cruze Diesel, which competes with VW's TDI.

 

"GM may have paved the way for a Volkswagen fix since they were able to lower the NOx output from their engine by making a few hardware changes and adjusting the emissions programming to reduce fueling. These changes are apparent when you look at the specs for the vehicles. The European engine produces 163 hp and 260 lb.-ft. while the US engine produces 151 hp and 250 lb.-ft. The fuel economy is also noticeably better for the European version with the heavier Zafira Tourer enjoying a 40 mpg combined rating while the Cruze Diesel is rated at 33 mpg combined by the EPA. All of these changes fall in line with a reduction in fuel injection timing. Reducing the timing causes a decrease in power and fuel economy, but also reduces the NOx output. One other hint to the changes lies in the CO2 output ratings which put the Zafira Tourer at 220 grams per mile while the Cruze is at 307 grams per mile. This goes in line with a lower NOx output rating for the Cruze as due to the inverse relationship of CO2 and NOx output.

 

Round that 7mpg difference to 10, given that the Zafira is a bigger and heavier car, and you're looking at 10/10/10: lose 10 hp, 10 lb ft of torque, and 10 combined MPG.

 

That doesn't seem so bad, but it would apply only to the very newest VW TDI's, e.g. the 2015s, which were already equipped with urea injection. The older cars, without urea injection, are going to be another story--VW would have to design a whole new urea system, since their existing one doesn't fit the earlier cars, or else deliver a much bigger cut to power, economy, and reliability.

 

They continue: "The dirty piece of reducing the injection timing is that more soot is created, which is why many are against such a fix for the Volkswagen diesels. This side effect is apparent in the Cruze as many have complained about soot buildup and the ability of the diesel regen cycle to clean it. The regen cycle in the Cruze burns additional diesel to heat up the particulate filter and clear out the soot, but dealers are running manual regens orincreasing the regen cycle to help combat these issues due to the heavy soot build up on some vehicles. While the longer regen cycles will help to combat soot, they will also reduce the fuel economy as more diesel is dumped in order to heat up the filter."

 

That is, the GM engine may need to lose a little more MPG yet to get the soot issue under control as well.

 

Here's a link: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/tech-dive-chevy-cruze-stays-clean/

Edited September 29, 2015 by HotPotato

[C-MaxSea]

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/28/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0RP14U20150928

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-28/volkswagen-s-cleanup-push-overseen-by-scandal-scarred-former-ceo

 

[ptjones]

At this point it is starting to look like Hybrids could make some gains with VW not being able to sell cars in the US and when they do the FE will be lower making Hybrids more attractive. IMO :)

 

Paul

[C-MaxSea]

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/29/vws-diesel-deception-where-were-the-regulators.html

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/28/richard-branson-vw-cheating-may-be-positive-news.html

 

http://www.cnet.com/news/new-vw-ceo-says-cars-affected-by-emissions-rigging-scandal-to-be-refitted/

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100251_supplier-warned-vw-of-illegal-diesel-defeat-devicein-2007

[stevedebi]

I think there's some fuzzy logic here---I'm not sure what seat comfort or highway miles per gallon have to do with an argument about tailpipe emissions.

Seat comfort doesn't, but the entire point of VW software deceptions was to allow for higher MPG when the car was in real world conditions - achieved by allowing more emissions.

 

It gets off into tangents because those same modifications allow better performance in real world conditions. That is how the discussion sometimes goes over into other aspects of the cars.

[raadsel]

To be honest, I would be interested to see if we could make fuel cell technology affordable and prevalent -- in many ways this sounds like the best future technology.

[obob]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/business/engine-shortfall-pushed-volkswagen-to-evade-emissions-testing.html?_r=0

 

"Volkswagen installed software designed to cheat on emissions tests in 2008 after realizing that a new diesel engine, developed at great expense, could not meet pollution standards in the United States and other countries, people with knowledge of the automaker’s internal inquiry said on Sunday.

 

Rather than stop production of the engine and throw out years of work and investment, managers decided to cheat, the people said, confirming a report in Bild am Sonntag, a German newspaper"

Edited October 4, 2015 by obob

[raadsel]

I thought this was interesting. The Fast Lane Car people got a 2011 Jetta TDI and hooked it up to a four wheel drive Dyno. Using the dyno in 4 wheel drive mode allowed them to emulate highway conditions, so the car wouldn't realize it was being tested, and tested the torque and horsepower the car put out. They then disabled 4 wheel drive mode, to make the car believe it was being emissions tested and checked torque and horsepower. 

 

Their findings is that the Jetta lost about 15 horsepower and 30 ft. lbs. of torque. It becomes even more interesting if those losses still don't make the car compliant with EPA Clean Air standards.