VW & Audi to recall 500,000 diesels - Software detected, tricked EPA tests

[kostby]

NY Times 09-18-2015:

"The Environmental Protection Agency accused the German automaker of using software to detect when the car is undergoing its periodic state emissions testing. Only during such tests are the cars’ full emissions control systems turned on. During normal driving situations, the controls are turned off, allowing the cars to spew as much as 40 times as much pollution as allowed under the Clean Air Act, the E.P.A. said."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/business/volkswagen-is-ordered-to-recall-nearly-500000-vehicles-over-emissions-software.html

 

http://bestride.com/blog/volkswagen-and-audi-ordered-to-recall-500k-diesel-cars-used-software-to-circumvent-epa-rules/24639/

[obob]

That's really, really low in my opinion.  I thought VW had more ethics for me to expect that.

 

I got a kick out of this line from the NY Times article: “This is several steps beyond the violations that we’ve seen from other auto companies,”

 

"TDI Clean Diesel makes sure you don’t have to sacrifice driving dynamics for mpg." http://www.vw.com/features/clean-diesel/

 

It would be interesting to me to know who at VW actually knew about this - how high up the ladder did this idea get OKed.

Edited September 19, 2015 by obob

[C-MaxSea]

POOOOOOFFFF  !  The VW clean diesel / high MPG myth gets busted.  :redcard:  :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:  :spend: :spend: :spend: :spend: :spend:

 

Have never trusted their claims, hate the bronchitis I get from diesel fumes !

 

 

Keep on C-Maxing,  :number1:

 

Nick

Edited September 19, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[raadsel]

It will be interesting to see how this effects fuel economy as these vehicles are fixed.

[obob]

It will be interesting to see how this effects fuel economy as these vehicles are fixed.

And it will be interesting to me how it effects performance.  

Edited September 19, 2015 by obob

[bobmaxed]

Though it seems likely.  There has been no word yet if VW is going to recall and fix TDI diesel cars.  They do admit to the problem. I believe the EPA is still investigating the whole situation. The news broke when the EPA thought they'd give people a heads up on the problem.   I remains to be seen what the final outcome will be.

[raadsel]

Though it seems likely.  There has been no word yet if VW is going to recall and fix TDI diesel cars.  They do admit to the problem. I believe the EPA is still investigating the whole situation. The news broke when the EPA thought they'd give people a heads up on the problem.   I remains to be seen what the final outcome will be.

 

I can't see where it would be an option, it seems to me VW has to fix this no matter what it might cost them. Basically, these cars do not meet the required emissions standards. In states/communities with emission requirements, these cars cannot be legally licensed, as they do not meet emissions standards.

[obob]

I wonder if VW's investigation will make them look somewhat innocent - like the code was written by a rouge computer programmer, or this is the software for a different country.

 

It is nice when cheaters get caught, but unfortunately I suspect that there is a lot worse cheating going on that is not getting caught by different industries, which is bad because this is a pretty bad cheat.

 

Here is a post from another forum which I found interesting: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37712981&postcount=96

The fix might be to add a "diesel exhaust fluid system which injects urea based additive into exhaust stream so any nitrogen oxides are converted to carbon dioxide, pure nitrogen and water" and leave it on.

Edited September 21, 2015 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

Here's the WVU study final report on tests of 3 TDIs that found very high emission levels during real world testing and a table from the report showing the high NOX emission levels (note the standard is the green dashed line).   

 

 

[fbov]

If you want to see some immediate impact, do a search for VW's stock price... dropped 30% overnight.

[raadsel]

I wonder if VW's investigation will make them look somewhat innocent - like the code was written by a rouge computer programmer, or this is the software for a different country.

 

It is nice when cheaters get caught, but unfortunately I suspect that there is a lot worse cheating going on that is not getting caught by different industries, which is bad because this is a pretty bad cheat.

 

Here is a post from another forum which I found interesting: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37712981&postcount=96

The fix might be to add a "diesel exhaust fluid system which injects urea based additive into exhaust stream so any nitrogen oxides are converted to carbon dioxide, pure nitrogen and water" and leave it on.

 

All 2015 VW diesels already have Urea systems, so it won't help those vehicles. It might be an option on 2014 and older Jetta/Golfs (and I'm guessing Beetles, though not sure) but it is going to be very expensive to retrofit urea systems to those vehicles -- if that is one of the things VW does. It is looking to me like the greatest cost to VW might not just be in fines, but in recall costs combined with the lawsuits by VW owners -- particularly as there could be large punitive for the fraud that was allegedly committed by VW.

[raadsel]

If you want to see some immediate impact, do a search for VW's stock price... dropped 30% overnight.

 

I feel bad for any VW owner that is currently trying to sell their VW diesel -- they've also lost a lot of value since this was announced. Likely also not a good time to be a VW dealer/salesman.

[stevedebi]

My wife has a 2014 Passat TDI. She is a bit worried. Obviously the cars can pass emissions, because they do when connected. I suspect they will simply enable the controls continuously, probably with some performance hit. With her TDI, it could lose 20% of it's engine power and still be vastly superior to a gas car. My question is what will happen to the MPG, which is currently about 43 on her daily commute.

[fbov]

This could be groundbreaking. The Times says this is the EPA's "opening salvo."

Under the terms of the Clean Air Act, the Justice Department could impose fines of as much as $37,500 for each recalled vehicle, for a possible total penalty of as much as $18 billion.

 

To put this in perspective, VW's operating income has been $11.8B in 2013 and 2014.

 

The real question is punitive damages... what's the multiplier for intentionally circumventing the regulations in an automated manner?

 

Frank

[obob]

Here's the WVU study final report on tests of 3 TDIs that found very high emission levels during real world testing and a table from the report showing the high NOX emission levels (note the standard is the green dashed line).   

 

 

 

 

Great link !!!  Thanks.

 

I find it sad that there is so much reporting by major news outlets without referencing this info.  

 

In case it is not obvious enough the link to the report is: http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

 

For those interested, it might be good to start reading at conclusions on page 106.  It details the nature of vehicle A and B and C and puts words to a lot of the graph that Plus 3 Golfer posted.

Edited September 21, 2015 by obob

[ptjones]

It will be interesting to see how this all works out, it seems large Corp. use Marketing to come up with solutions instead of engineering.  Alot of States don't have Diesel testing like Georgia.  Interesting Idea that ECM could use the GPS to change the program depending what State your are driving  in. Could get more specific depending what City you were in.  Atlanta area has Smog Testing, but the rural areas don't.  :)

 

PS: I noticed that some Stations are using 15% Biodiesel and how does that effect the results. :headscratch:

 

Paul

[obob]

Great link !!!  Thanks.

 

I find in sad that there is so much reporting by major news outlets without referencing this info.  

 

In case it is not obvious enough the link to the report is: http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

 

For those interested, it might be good to start reading at conclusions on page 106.  It details the nature of vehicle A and B and C and puts words to a lot of the graph that Plus 3 Golfer posted.

 

 

Car A and B I suspect are VW's and B has urea exhaust injection, which apparently just limits the degree of pollution, not eliminating it.

Car C might be a diesel BMW X5   http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

Edited September 21, 2015 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

Car A and B I suspect are VW's and B has urea exhaust injection, which apparently just limits the degree of pollution, not eliminating it.

Car C might be a diesel BMW X5   http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

 

 

2014 and 2015 Passat TDIs have urea injection.

 

Here's the link to the EPA letter to VW.  Note the alleged violations.

 

 http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Edited September 21, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[stevedebi]

They have pictures.

 

Car A and B I suspect are VW's and B has urea exhaust injection, which apparently just limits the degree of pollution, not eliminating it.

Car C might be a diesel BMW X5   http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

They have pictures. Vehicle A appears to be a Golf Wagon, Vehicle B is a Passat. Not sure about Vehicle 3, but I think it is a MB 320.

 

The Golf got the worst grade. The Passat was less bad, and even had normal emissions on flat terrain.

 

EDIT: Just saw in the letter that it was a Jetta, not a Golf.

Edited September 21, 2015 by stevedebi

[obob]

They have pictures.

 

They have pictures. Vehicle A appears to be a Golf Wagon, Vehicle B is a Passat. Not sure about Vehicle 3, but I think it is a MB 320.

 

The Golf got the worst grade. The Passat was less bad, and even had normal emissions on flat terrain.

 

EDIT: Just saw in the letter that it was a Jetta, not a Golf.

 

I thought it could have been a BMW from this quote:  

"The lab that tested the VWs also tested a diesel BMW X5, which passed." http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

[obob]

One article coined the word dieselgate.

 

This post from another forum leads to me to believe this may get a lot bigger.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37715422&postcount=130

[ptjones]

Looks like they won't be able to sell any 2016 2L TDI's until the matter is solved. ;)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

Looks like they won't be able to sell any 2016 2L TDI's until the matter is solved. ;)

 

Paul

VW USA has instructed dealers to stop sale of all VW TDI models, from what I have seen.

 

The 2016s will not be certified by the EPA unless this is resolved.

[SnowStorm]

Just points out another advantage of electric cars - no emission tests.  Strangely, I never thought of this before.  (Yes, I know, there are "emissions" elsewhere but at least the car owner isn't involved - and there are clean ways to get electricity too.)

 

This whole thing is insane - almost surreal - like it could be out of movie or something...

[Adrian_L]

That "Das Auto" thing was really starting to get on my nerves.  Can you imagine a commercial for a country, say South Africa and then you see the words "THE COUNTRY".  Please. 

 

Having said that, I think they'll be fine.  But Toyota is going to bump them off the #1 spot for certain.