2017 Kia Niro

[djc]

This car looks interesting.  ConsumerReports has a first-look item today. 

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/kia/2017-kia-niro-hybrid-aims-for-the-toyota-prius/

 

They say:

"New for the Niro is an available system that Kia calls Eco-DAS (for Driver Assistance System), which uses the navigation system to look at topographical data for the planned route. Eco-DAS has two clever features: Coasting Guide, which coaches the driver on when to coast and when to brake; and Predictive Energy Control, which makes informed decisions about when to pull power from the battery and when to recharge it. It's impressive to see Kia taking advantage of the car's ability to sense its environment in order to improve efficiency."

C-max has altitude sensor and GPS built in also, but Ford decided to make very limited use of the information  ("EV+").  Plus Ford chose to make navigation an expensive option.  I like Hyundai decisions better.

 

The CR write-up says the Niro interior is very nice, and they attribute that to Hyundai hiring Audi's design chief awhile back.

[62Lincoln]

The Niro is the chassis mate to Hyundai's direct challenge to the Prius, a car called Ioniq. Both Hyundais share the same chassis, with obviously different top hats. Kudos to Hyundai for offering buyers a choice.

[raadsel]

Niro looks nice - appears to have a larger cargo space, but seats do not fold flat

 

 

When you fold down the seat it lowers the seat leaving no room.

 

Paul

 

I don't understand what you two are talking about. From what I saw the Niro does have seats that fold down and that it doubles the cargo capacity (from over 25 cu. ft. to over 50 cu. ft). Are you claiming the seats don't go completely flat, instead sitting at a slight angle; that the seats aren't flat with the load floor, likely because of the battery underneath the seats; or do you mean something else?

[Louder North]

I don't understand what you two are talking about. From what I saw the Niro does have seats that fold down and that it doubles the cargo capacity (from over 25 cu. ft. to over 50 cu. ft). Are you claiming the seats don't go completely flat, instead sitting at a slight angle; that the seats aren't flat with the load floor, likely because of the battery underneath the seats; or do you mean something else?

 

I think ptjones was replying to stevedebi regarding reasons why Ford didn't put the HVB under the rear seat (i.e. there is no room once rear seat is folded forward).

Edited February 22, 2016 by Louder North

[ptjones]

I don't understand what you two are talking about. From what I saw the Niro does have seats that fold down and that it doubles the cargo capacity (from over 25 cu. ft. to over 50 cu. ft). Are you claiming the seats don't go completely flat, instead sitting at a slight angle; that the seats aren't flat with the load floor, likely because of the battery underneath the seats; or do you mean something else?

I was referring to the CMAX's seats.

[raadsel]

I was referring to the CMAX's seats.

 

 

I think ptjones was replying to stevedebi regarding reasons why Ford didn't put the HVB under the rear seat (i.e. there is no room once rear seat is folded forward).

 

Thanks for explaining. Though that seems more like an excuse, rather than an actual reason. Obviously other automakers (such as Kia) can but the HVB under the rear seats and still have the seats fold forward. OTOH, that is clearly an advantage to designing a dedicated hybrid, rather than trying to fit a hybrid system into an existing model.

[raadsel]

I went into a Kia dealer to see the Niro today. The car is not on sale in the US yet, but a number of US dealers have a Niro on display (list of US dealers that have a Niro on Display). It is actually a car that appears to be built for the Korean market (what I believe is Korean "warnings" on the outside mirrors), so you couldn't drive it. In fact, the car's 12V battery was dead (and it did have an actual 12V battery, which answers a question I had previously). 

 

In size, it reminds me a lot of the C-Max, though I like the look of it better. I think the Kia has a nice looking front end. The Kia seems to sit maybe an inch or two higher than the C-Max; still lower than most SUVs and a height that is very comfortable to get into. The Niro is two inches longer (and about two inch longer wheelbase), and inch narrower, and 3.5 inches shorter. Looking at the interior specs, they all appear to be fairly close; the C-Max has an inch more front headroom (despite being three inches taller) with rear headroom about the same; the Niro has more legroom, over an inch in the front and about an inch in the back; Shoulder room is similar between the two, both front and back, though the C-Max has an extra inch of hip room in the front and over 2 inches in the back. The C-Max has better cargo volume -- at least over the load floor (about 19 to 24.5 sq in), but the Niro has room to put a full size spare tire under the rear load floor. The battery in the Niro is completely under the rear seat.

 

The Niro at the dealership was fully loaded -- adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, blind spot detection/cross traffic alert, heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel, leather seats, and even a wireless charger for you phone in the center console. The one thing I noticed that was missing, that would be nice to have, is memory buttons for the driver's seat and mirror -- while it is a power seat and power mirrors, like the C-Max, there appears to be no memory settings. 

 

The US pricing hasn't been announced yet, or what the EPA fuel economy numbers are; the US models should be available early next year, hopefully January. The rumors at the dealership are that the base Niro will be just above 20K (maybe 22 or 23 thousand), and fully loaded it will be around 30K -- so a bit less than the C-Max, if those numbers turn out to be true. Kia is still hoping for 50 mpg overall on the Niro. Which reminds me, the display had Michelin Primacy tires, which looked nice, but I expect they will have an LRR tire on the US models -- hopefully the Michelin Energy Savers, but I honestly expect they will have Kumho and or Hankooks.

 

I talked to a salesman, for a few minutes, who had driven it (before they realized it may not be street legal in the US) and said that it was quick, having good power of the line or even when accelerating to pass. He also said it drove smoothly and was very quiet, that it was difficult to notice when the engine turned on. 

 

With the C-Max going away in the next couple of years, this looks like it will make a decent replacement; though it will be interesting to actually drive one of the models built for the US.

Edited October 30, 2016 by raadsel

[scottwood2]

I went into a Kia dealer to see the Niro today. The car is not on sale in the US yet, but a number of US dealers have a Niro on display (list of US dealers that have a Niro on Display). It is actually a car that appears to be built for the Korean market (what I believe is Korean "warnings" on the outside mirrors), so you couldn't drive it. In fact, the car's 12V battery was dead (and it did have an actual 12V battery, which answers a question I had previously). 

 

In size, it reminds me a lot of the C-Max, though I like the look of it better. I think the Kia has a nice looking front end. The Kia seems to sit maybe an inch or two higher than the C-Max; still lower than most SUVs and a height that is very comfortable to get into. The Niro is two inches longer (and about two inch longer wheelbase), and inch narrower, and 3.5 inches shorter. Looking at the interior specs, they all appear to be fairly close; the C-Max has an inch more front headroom (despite being three inches taller) with rear headroom about the same; the Niro has more legroom, over an inch in the front and about an inch in the back; Shoulder room is similar between the two, both front and back, though the C-Max has an extra inch of hip room in the front and over 2 inches in the back. The C-Max has better cargo volume -- at least over the load floor (about 19 to 24.5 sq in), but the Niro has room to put a full size spare tire under the rear load floor. The battery in the Niro is completely under the rear seat.

 

The Niro at the dealership was fully loaded -- adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, blind spot detection/cross traffic alert, heated and cooled seats, heated steering wheel, leather seats, and even a wireless charger for you phone in the center console. The one thing I noticed that was missing, that would be nice to have, is memory buttons for the driver's seat and mirror -- while it is a power seat and power mirrors, like the C-Max, there appears to be no memory settings. 

 

The US pricing hasn't been announced yet, or what the EPA fuel economy numbers are; the US models should be available early next year, hopefully January. The rumors at the dealership are that the base Niro will be just above 20K (maybe 22 or 23 thousand), and fully loaded it will be around 30K -- so a bit less than the C-Max, if those numbers turn out to be true. Kia is still hoping for 50 mpg overall on the Niro. Which reminds me, the display had Michelin Primacy tires, which looked nice, but I expect they will have an LRR tire on the US models -- hopefully the Michelin Energy Savers, but I honestly expect they will have Kumho and or Hankooks.

 

I talked to a salesman, for a few minutes, who had driven it (before they realized it may not be street legal in the US) and said that it was quick, having good power of the line or even when accelerating to pass. He also said it drove smoothly and was very quiet, that it was difficult to notice when the engine turned on. 

 

With the C-Max going away in the next couple of years, this looks like it will make a decent replacement; though it will be interesting to actually drive one of the models built for the US.

Thx for the nice write up.   I am hoping that Ford will have a similar replacement for the C-Max but I could also see them aim more at the Prius size.  I like the taller, more SUV size of the C-Max.   Good to see there are other cars coming out that are like this if Ford chooses to do otherwise. 

[raadsel]

Kia announced this week that they set a Guinness World Record for the lowest fuel consumption, driving coast-to-coast, averaging 76.6 mpg over 3,715.4 miles, using 48.5 gallons of gas (just over 4 tanks). The EPA ratings for the model used to set the record is 46 city/51 highway/49 combined. The Niro was driven by Wayne Gerdes and he is in the process of posting his experience driving the Niro cross country here. It is also worth noting he didn't drive the most fuel efficient Niro, which is the Niro FE, and is EPA rated at 52 city/49 highway/50 combined, and also that he made the drive in November (with the cold weather likely stealing an mpg or two of efficiency).

[ptjones]

I would be interested to see his route and average speed.  I would expect that Technology is improving. I noticed it has 1.6 L ICE and down 42 HP which would improve FE. :)  I've gotten 68 mpg twice and think 73 mpg is possible, it comes down to average speed.

 

Paul

[obob]

I went into a Kia dealer to see the Niro today. The car is not on sale in the US yet, but a number of US dealers have a Niro on display (list of US dealers that have a Niro on Display). It is actually a car that appears to be built for the Korean market (what I believe is Korean "warnings" on the outside mirrors), so you couldn't drive it. In fact, the car's 12V battery was dead (and it did have an actual 12V battery, which answers a question I had previously). 

 

 

 

http://www.kia.com/us/en/content/vehicles/upcoming-vehicles/2017-niro/overview

 

"Available at dealers late Dec 2016/early Jan 2017"

 

I may keep my C-Max until I can get a self driving car that is small but big like the C-Max and gets decent mileage like the C-Max. (and has the first year bugs exposed and fixed.)

Edited December 20, 2016 by obob

[ptjones]

raadsel, on 18 Dec 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Kia announced this week that they set a Guinness World Record for the lowest fuel consumption, driving coast-to-coast, averaging 76.6 mpg over 3,715.4 miles, using 48.5 gallons of gas (just over 4 tanks). The EPA ratings for the model used to set the record is 46 city/51 highway/49 combined. The Niro was driven by Wayne Gerdes and he is in the process of posting his experience driving the Niro cross country here. It is also worth noting he didn't drive the most fuel efficient Niro, which is the Niro FE, and is EPA rated at 52 city/49 highway/50 combined, and also that he made the drive in November (with the cold weather likely stealing an mpg or two of efficiency).

 

 

This is the same guy that trashed our CMAX's in 2013.  :rant: I did a estimate taking 7 days(Dec 4-Dec 11+ 2 drivers) at 16hrs a day, 530 miles= 33 mph.  If this is the case I believe my CMAX could do that! :yahoo:

 

Paul 

Edited May 19, 2017 by ptjones

[SnowStorm]

And a one-way trip doesn't count!  You have to return to start!  :nonono:  Guess which way the prevailing winds blow in the continental US - pretty sure its west to east! :redcard: With no details and no documentation you're left with lots of possibilities to game the system:

• watch the weather and catch the best tail winds
• select your route to maximize tail winds
• have a service truck bring along E0 gasoline for the whole trip - add whatever you like to it
• draft the service truck the whole way (they were called hyper-milers as I recall)!
• drive 33 mph as Paul says (I tested the C-Max at 75 mpg at 35 mph)
• ???

Not saying they did this but.....(I pay little attention to these kinds of articles).

We'll just wait for the lawsuits when real-world drivers can't get 76 mpg doing 75 mph in real-world "highway" driving!

But I do wish the car well!  Anything that's out there pushing high MPG is great! :)

[raadsel]

And a one-way trip doesn't count!  You have to return to start!  :nonono:  Guess which way the prevailing winds blow in the continental US - pretty sure its west to east! :redcard: With no details and no documentation you're left with lots of possibilities to game the system:

• watch the weather and catch the best tail winds
• select your route to maximize tail winds
• have a service truck bring along E0 gasoline for the whole trip - add whatever you like to it
• draft the service truck the whole way (they were called hyper-milers as I recall)!
• drive 33 mph as Paul says (I tested the C-Max at 75 mpg at 35 mph)
• ???

Not saying they did this but.....(I pay little attention to these kinds of articles).

We'll just wait for the lawsuits when real-world drivers can't get 76 mpg doing 75 mph in real-world "highway" driving!

But I do wish the car well!  Anything that's out there pushing high MPG is great! :)

 

As I mentioned above, you can read about the trip on CleanMPG.com -- though last I saw he is still working on putting up the full account. Looking now, he has only posted about the pre-trip testing he did, and then leaving LA at the start of the trip. As to your points:

 

• He timing was based solely on when Kia made the Niro available, so he was not able to wait for ideal weather -- which is why he did it in December.
• He states that his route was largely chosen to avoid steep climbs and trying to stay South longer for the less cold temperatures.
• He had no service truck. All fill ups were done at Shell stations. I believe he just used regular unleaded, though I don't think he ever states. From the pictures, it does not appear E0 is sold at the LA station (and likely not the others). Per the Guiness rules, the gas tank was sealed off, with the seal and paperwork were signed by two gas station attendants, with the signatures compared at the next station before breaking the seal. So no additives, just Shell gasoline. He does mention, in one of his test trips to see if the trip was feasible, he bought some E0 at a station in Arizona.
• Again, no service truck. Additionally, the lack of service truck means additional weight in the car. Besides the two adult male drivers, some of the items they left with include "two full sized spares, a 24 pack of Pepsi, 24 bottles of water, 16 bottles of Gatorade, 16 bottles of sparkling water." He lists a few other items (mostly snacks) in his account. He estimates an added 700 extra pounds of weight to the car between the two drivers and the gear.
• My recollection from other long distance fuel economy drives Wayne has done, he tends to drive between 50-60 where possible, speeding up or slowing down based on safety factors. Hopefully we'll get a better idea of his speeds traveled as he posts more. For example, much of the early part of his trip was done on I-10, and California's minimum speed limit is 10 mph below the posted speed limit, so he would have done at least 55 mph while on I-10 through the desert.

The interesting result, so far, is that the first 129 miles (to Incipio, CA) he averaged 92 mpg, which includes a climb over a 2,750 ft high pass. Regardless, the "lawsuits" won't be if people can't get 70 mpg, since the EPA combined rating is "only" 49 for the model he drove.It will be interesting to see what real world results these cars get in the next few months, once they become available at Kia dealerships.

 

From what I've been reading and seen, this does seem to be a nice and well-designed car. It definitely appears to help that it was designed as a hybrid, rather than converted to a hybrid, like the C-Max.

[SnowStorm]

Good points - I didn't realize you had to wade through pages of comments after the article to get more details.  Some of which are quite telling:

• Drive down to 25 mph in truck lanes going up mountains
• Get off the Interstates and use side roads when possible (means you can drive slower)
• Serious weather/wind/route planning - as expected

All good hyper-miler stuff - and they still could have been drafting.  They did have a lot of weight but low speed is much more important than low weight.

 

Interesting how they described manually bleeding off charge as you get to the top of a hill so you can recharge going down.  That is an (admittedly small) pet peeve of mine - no manual control of SOC.

 

The MPG meter maxing out at 99.9 is rather lame.  Of course its not all that important but I really like the C-Max going to 999.9!

 

So again, sounds like a great CUV but would still like to see the full details of route and driving speeds (and whether they drafted the trucks!).

[ptjones]

SnowStrom "Interesting how they described manually bleeding off charge as you get to the top of a hill so you can recharge going down.  That is an (admittedly small) pet peeve of mine - no manual control of SOC."    You can kind of do this in Empower Display Mode as get to the top of the hill you can let off the gas and go into EV Mode, just keep the blue bar below the blue power available line. You should be able to get down to 38-33% SOC. You can also use EV to get up to speed going down hill so the ICE doesn't charge up HVB. :)

 

 I also believe he uses Coasting witch is more efficient. :headscratch: :shift: 

 

Paul

[AZgman]

My wife and I checked out a Kia Niro at a dealer before we bought our C-Max. Other than maybe a little more gas mileage, I think the C-Max is the better vehicle.  YMMV

 

C-Max                           Niro

Proven drivetrain          New drivetrain

Comfortable seats        OK seats

US company                 S. Korean company

Ford Sync                     UVO

188 hp                           139 hp combined

176 ft/lb                         191 ft/lb combined

141 hp/129 ft/lb ICE      104 hp/109 ft/lb ICE

CVT                               DSG 6 speed

1.4KW battery               1.56KW battery

13.5 gal tank                  11.9 gal tank

Edited December 21, 2016 by AZgman

[ptjones]

Dealers in Atlanta area aren't sure when they are going get them. :headscratch:

 

Paul

[raadsel]

Dealers in Atlanta area aren't sure when they are going get them. :headscratch:

 

Paul

 

No US dealers actually have a Niro for sale yet, it has not yet been released by Kia. My guess is that they will start showing up sometime in January. They likely went to a dealer that had a Niro that was built for the S. Korea market on display but that could not be test driven.

Edited December 22, 2016 by raadsel

[ptjones]

No US dealers actually have a Niro for sale yet, it has not yet been released by Kia. My guess is that they will start showing up sometime in January. They likely went to a dealer that had a Niro that was built for the S. Korea market on display but that could not be test driven.

Does that mean they aren't being built in US? :sad:  Does that also mean the KIA NIRO wasn't a USA Certified car that broke the record and is there going to be a difference? The KIA Plant is about 25 miles from my house.

 

Paul

[raadsel]

Does that mean they aren't being built in US? :sad:  Does that also mean the KIA NIRO wasn't a USA Certified car that broke the record and is there going to be a difference? The KIA Plant is about 25 miles from my house.

 

Paul

 

My understanding is that all the Korean hybrids (both Kia and Hyundai) are built in S. Korea, largely because of all hybrid powertrains being built in South Korea. I also believe that the US Kia plant doesn't currently have the manufacturing capability to add manufacturing for an additional model, beyond the Optima and Sorento models currently produced there.

 

The Niro used to make the Guinness World Record was a car for the US market, probably the first (or one of the first batch) of cars built to US specs built and shipped to the US. The record was set just a week or so prior to the Niro media "first drive" event. The cars that have been in dealers lots have been there for over two months, I believe they were shipped prior to the US spec cars being manufactured.

[obob]

1. With a .29 drag coefficient I wouldn't expect consumer reports highway rating to be that good.  (the C-max DC is .30 as I recall, the 2016 prius and testa model S is at .24, 

 

2. This car began selling in Korea this year (info from Wikipedia) so it is in the zone of getting bugs out as far as I am concerned.

 

3. That world record might have something to do with not many people wanting to invest the time to drive to the other side of the country.  I would think a 2016 prius should be able to beat that easily.  I have a friend who just drives conservatively and gets 68 in the no heater needed months and 61 with her 2016 prius now.  A couple fuelly people are in the mid seventies. http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius/2016/krousdb/418301 This person's best tankful is 85 (1020 miles between fill ups) with 70% city.

[raadsel]

1. With a .29 drag coefficient I wouldn't expect consumer reports highway rating to be that good.  (the C-max DC is .30 as I recall, the 2016 prius and testa model S is at .24, 

 

2. This car began selling in Korea this year (info from Wikipedia) so it is in the zone of getting bugs out as far as I am concerned.

 

3. That world record might have something to do with not many people wanting to invest the time to drive to the other side of the country.  I would think a 2016 prius should be able to beat that easily.  I have a friend who just drives conservatively and gets 68 in the no heater needed months and 61 with her 2016 prius now.  A couple fuelly people are in the mid seventies. http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius/2016/krousdb/418301 This person's best tankful is 85 (1020 miles between fill ups) with 70% city.

 

1. I'll be interested to see how the Niro does at various highway speeds. As you allude to, I would suspect that the fuel economy may drop quite a bit between 55, 65, and 75 (much like the C-Max). I'll be interested to hear how it does at various speeds. At the same time, it is worth noting that there are some features on the Niro to help improve mileage that might not be fully reflected in the drag coefficient; such as the holes in the front bumper to create an "air curtain" around the sides of the car and the roof overhanging the back window by a couple of inches. It also weighs about 500 pounds less than the C-Max (I believe the tested model is 3,150 lbs).

 

It will  be interesting to see what Consumer Reports says about the fuel economy. From what I've seen, Kia/Hyundai has tried to be conservative with their EPA numbers since being fined a couple of years ago.

 

2. It also helps that this is Kia/Hyundai's third hybrid powertrain. They originally had a 2.4L ICE in the original Optima/Sonata hybrids; they changed to a 2.0L ICE and slightly larger electric motor in the newer models. Now they have the 1.6L ICE and use the dual clutch transmission (a version of which they've used on other Hyundai and Kia's the last few years). Of course, it also helps that Kia has the 100,000 mile/10 year hybrid and powertrain warranties.

 

3. In many ways this was a publicity stunt, merely to show what the Niro could do. My understanding is that Kia originally wanted to create a record for the best mpg by a CUV going cross country but it was Guinness who wanted it merely to be the best mpg by a car. Obviously, a hybrid sedan could likely beat the record, such as the Prius. It seems like Hyundai/Kia would be smart to have Wayne now do the same trip in a Hyundai Ioniq -- a sedan based on the same powertrain and frame as the Niro. The EPA ratings on the Ioniq were recently announced as 55 city/54 highway/52 combined for the "normal" trim, and 57 city/ 59 highway/ 58 combined for the "Blue" trim level -- both of which beat the ratings of the current Toyota Prius (54 city/50 highway/52 combined for the normal trim, 58 city/53 highway/56 combined for the Eco). If the EPA numbers are accurate, it seems that the normal Ioniq trim could set a record that the Prius Eco would not be able to beat (because of the better highway mileage on the Ioniq).

Edited December 23, 2016 by raadsel

[obob]

Wikiipedia "Its aerodynamic design helped lower the drag coefficient of the Ioniq down to 0.24"

[raadsel]

Wikiipedia "Its aerodynamic design helped lower the drag coefficient of the Ioniq down to 0.24"

 

I know the current Sonata Hybrid, and it appears the 2017 Optima Hybrid, also have a drag coefficient of 0.24. I think they have the same type of improvements on the Niro, just that it has the high roof. Like the Niro, the Ioniq is already on sale in South Korea, though they have an all electric model as well. I believe the Ioniq EV is due out anytime now in the US, the Ioniq Hybrid maybe a month or two later, and the Ioniq PHEV next summer.

 

It sounds as if Kia has decided to make a PHEV and EV version of the Niro, the PHEV likely will be a 2018 model available in late 2017. I haven't heard about when an EV model may be available -- though with the Ioniq having both an EV and PHEV, it should make it faster and easier to produce these NIro versions.

Edited December 24, 2016 by raadsel