Ford Model E to replace C-Max (reports)

[stevedebi]

Doesn't also charge the 12v batt when you charge the HVB?

 

Paul

Yes, but like  said they have too many Energi to rotate them into the charging slots, and that would use up the slots instead of having customers and the maintenance folks use them.

[stevedebi]

Scott.  let look at a trip in the tesla from detriot to miami  21 hours(non stop) 1381 miles

 

Cmax- 600 miles range  so if you start will a full tank you would need to stop 2 times for fuel.   figure 30 minutes for each stop.  so now your trip is 22 hours.    not sure baout you  but  600 miles between stops is tough for me.  and I like to eat my three meals.  so we are looking at potentially three more stops of 30 minutes each,  now we are up to 23.5 hours.

 

the model S 85KW batter pack was rated at 320 miles by tesla....  EPA rates it at 265.   so lets say 250 miles.  which means you have to stop 5 times. if you start with full battery.  could do it with one less stop if you can squeeze  345 miles on a full charge

if we assume 60 minutes for a full charge  your 21 hour non stop time  has changed to 26 hours.  as opposed to 23.5.  thats not too hateful

 

if you plan on spending the night in a hotel on the trip down, I'd say the difference really becomes negligible at that point. 

 

in theory  you could only charge the battery to 80% in half the time, and make twice as many stops (rest breaks)  which is better from a drivers perspective anyhow and do it the same amount of time...

I don't see the point. Five times you HAVE to stop, regardless of if you want to or not. With the C-Max, I can drive until I am ready to stop, except for that one time.

 

Plus, can you show me the infrastructure ready to charge a Tesla between those two points? How about out west, where even the gas stations can be 50 miles apart? And who is going to pay for the electricity? Those supercharger stations may be free now, but that cannot continue if the company is to stay in business.

[Marc Smith]

Tesla has a pretty extensive network right now

 

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

 

I don't disagree with the ability to "stop whenever you want"  for go juice is a nice feature.  and not HAVE to stop.

 

for me 400 miles in the saddle is about the limit for my tucus and my bladder.

 

looks like from detroit to miami  tesla has super chargers every hundred miles on i-75  with even more "destination chargers" at hotels, malls, ect...

 

yes right now its free.  but  even if you  eventually have to pay for it and its cheaper than gas...  its still a win

 

Heck  I applaud tesla for building the infrastructure for their electric vehicles to venture beyond their range from home...   Its a step in the right direction...

 

 

there a few states that you want to avoid with the tesla....

[raadsel]

This is an interesting article on what car makers can do to make electric cars more mainstream. Most of their article seems to be devoted to battery tech, including a link to an article that mentions lots of the battery technologies currently under development, including the claim that many might finally be ready next year -- though it focuses more on batteries for personal devices, such as cell phones. Two of the battery technologies mentioned are Sulfide Superionic Conductors, being developed by Toyota, and Graphene batteries . Both technologies claim that they can offer much greater capacity in a smaller area, giving cars a 500 mile range with less weight, and charge much faster than lithium ion batteries (Graphene battery developers are claiming 33x faster charging times).

 

It will be interesting to see what actually develops, how much of an improvement it is, and how it effects prices. 500 miles range, faster charging, and cheaper prices should help make electric cars marketable, and drive the building of charging stations.

[mtta]

 

looks like from detroit to miami  tesla has super chargers every hundred miles on i-75  with even more "destination chargers" at hotels, malls, ect...

 

 

What "should" happen is every rest stop on the main interstates gets a couple of pay superchargers that work with all electric cars. Plenty of parking space around these and reduced risk of local traffic. Natural place to take a break and wait for the charge to finish.

 

Checking the current map I would be unsure of some of the locations, meaning the Meier parking lot, Starbucks, etc would not convince me I could rely on them. If Tesla went to a state government and planned each rest stop then it would seem useful.

[Kelleytoons]

To me it's not a question of whether I "could" make it somewhere with an electric if I planned where I had to stop, but rather until there are chargers as frequent as gas stations it just is WAY too much hassle to try and go somewhere.

 

I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember the gas "crisis" in the 70's, but back then when you could only fuel on certain days there was no way I was going to make a trip to California (from Southern Nevada, so it's not like it was all that far).  Just too much "if" to worry about.  Now, on a regular commute or even (perhaps) a "once in a lifetime trip" where you could plan out everything in great detail I guess I wouldn't mind it.  But even with gas stations everwhere nowadays I've had some scary incidents in our Durango that makes me NEVER again want to worry if I can "make it" or not.

 

I'm not saying there aren't people to who that isn't a concern, but I do suspect I'm in the majority and as long as that's the case then we won't see electics making much headway until the infrastructure is well in place (and that's a chicken/egg situation that probably will need government intervention to be solved).

[djc]

So Ford is only going to make the Fusion in hybrid form? 

 

Somehow it makes sense to them to only sell a hybrid that impractical people who like sedans would buy?

 

I don't think there is enough info at this point draw any conclusions about what Ford's future hybrids will be.  Apparently the new Mexico plant will produce Focus and another car, maybe based on Focus, maybe the "Model E".  It seems there will be a pure EV version of that, but possibly a hybrid version as well.  I am guessing Ford will try to cover most market segments.  Subaru sales are growing rapidly, and their best sellers have been ruggedized small wagons (Forester and Outback).  Toyota just recently hybridized the RAV4 at a small price premium over the standard RAV4.  So Toyota is betting on a non-sedan hybrid.  Prius continues as a hatch (not sure the fate of the more wagon-like V).

 

An uptick in gas prices would of course help sales of all these.  Americans have been pretty fickle about what form their favored utilitarian vehicle should be:  station wagon, mini-van, hatchback, SUV, extended cab pickup.   The handling and economy advantages of hatchback and wagon should keep a place for hybrid versions of them in the market - but it couldn't hurt to offer AWD versions and some ground clearance.

[mike884]

 

Cmax- 600 miles range 

 

I keep seeing people hitting 600 miles to a tank, how fast( slow) are you guys going?  I can maybe eek out 500 to the tank if you want to run it bone dry, but that is blitzing on the highway I suppose.

[djc]

Here's an update on Ford's future plans.  C-max will continue in Europe but likely discontinued in North America.  Likely replaced by the Model E, built on new 4th gen Ford Focus platform going into production in a few months around the world (Mexico for US market).  Hatchbacks and wagons in the mix. Ford is said to be planning a replacement for Focus electric, using the new platform, along with EV models competing with Ioniq and some Prius models.

 

http://www.just-auto.com/analysis/fords-future-models-and-platforms_id170332.aspx

[Kelleytoons]

I keep seeing people hitting 600 miles to a tank, how fast( slow) are you guys going?  I can maybe eek out 500 to the tank if you want to run it bone dry, but that is blitzing on the highway I suppose.

I make it all the time, but most of my driving is in town (where I average around 50mph, and 55mpg).  Fairly easy to do if you are driving in mostly flat places, without using the heater (IOW, Florida :>).

[RobMax]

I keep seeing people hitting 600 miles to a tank, how fast( slow) are you guys going?  I can maybe eek out 500 to the tank if you want to run it bone dry, but that is blitzing on the highway I suppose.

 

I have a lot of slow and go fwy traffic on my commute and rarely get above 65mph. That low speed, combined with 50psi in the tires, and judicious use of the brake and gas pedals (i.e. light braking for 100% regen, and light gas to stay on battery), gets me over 600 miles per tank routinely. Most of my trips net over 50mpg according to the readout when I shut the car off.

Edited July 7, 2016 by RobMax

[HotPotato]

I need longer range.  If I want to drive from SF to LA its 300+ miles.  I don't plan on owning multiple cars or having to wait at Bakersfield for hours for another kick in the pants.

 

I am so used to my 600 mile tank on the MAX.  I don't think I can go all electric.

 

Do you never stop to pee or eat? Because an EV with a DC fast charge connector can recharge to 80% of capacity in about 20 minutes. A 200-mile EV will have about double the size battery of a current EV, so let's say 40 minutes. The main thing now is building enough charging infrastructure that it doesn't require careful planning.

[djc]

"Ford will stop selling the C-Max in the U.S. after production ends at Michigan Assembly Plant in 2018, with the Model E effectively fulfilling its role."

 

8/12/2016 update at Automotive News (just the sentence above):

 

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/dcce?category=fproductguide&date=20130819&id=2919456&module=39&selected=15&site=ca&type=ford&class=3912

 

So a 5+ year run.

[jackalopetx]

Here's an update on Ford's future plans.  C-max will continue in Europe but likely discontinued in North America.  Likely replaced by the Model E, built on new 4th gen Ford Focus platform going into production in a few months around the world (Mexico for US market).  Hatchbacks and wagons in the mix. Ford is said to be planning a replacement for Focus electric, using the new platform, along with EV models competing with Ioniq and some Prius models.

 

http://www.just-auto.com/analysis/fords-future-models-and-platforms_id170332.aspx

 

What a shame that automakers are abandoning hybrids. It's ridiculous that your choices are trendy plugins and small cars that get 20mpg in the city

[Adrian_L]

Ridiculous?   How so?  The rise of electric cars is to be welcomed.  (it's ridiculous that North Americans are driving around in smoke belching pickups that weigh 3 tons)

 

When DC fast chargers are everywhere (and they will be) you'll plug your car in while having a coffee at McDonalds.   People will look back at range anxiety as a quaint teething problem of new technology.   

[ptjones]

Ridiculous?   How so?  The rise of electric cars is to be welcomed.  (it's ridiculous that North Americans are driving around in smoke belching pickups that weigh 3 tons)

 

When DC fast chargers are everywhere (and they will be) you'll plug your car in while having a coffee at McDonalds.   People will look back at range anxiety as a quaint teething problem of new technology.   

Maybe in Fifty years, Hybrid/PHEV are the most practical solution for the foreseeable future. If the grid goes down you are SOL with all electric. IMO  :) Most vehicles will come in a Hybrid/PHEV version in the near future as long as gas is cheap. :)  

 

Paul

Edited August 16, 2016 by ptjones

[raadsel]

What a shame that automakers are abandoning hybrids. It's ridiculous that your choices are trendy plugins and small cars that get 20mpg in the city

 

I don't see car makers abandoning hybrids. Sure, the C-Max is going but the Model E is supposed to have a hybrid variant, from what I recall reading; and they may have other hybrid vehicles in the works (13 total electric and/or hybrid vehicles by 2020). Toyota has added the Rav 4 hybrid, Hyundai is adding the Ioniq hybrid, Kia the Niro (which looks like the closest, so far, to a C-Max "replacement"), and Chevrolet with the new Malibu -- those are the new hybrid I can think of off the top of my head. Honda seems to be the only one not pushing hybrids -- though they had a lot of issues with their hybrids and they seem to be committed to bringing them back.

 

What I see is carmakers taking the time to build more dedicated EV/hybrid vehicles -- often designing them to have hybrid, plug-in, and pure electric models.

[Adrian_L]

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/08/06/uk-more-charging-stations-gas-stations?cmpid=tp-ptnr-huffpost

 

Hybrids: you can't build an efficient vehicle that includes two motors, two batteries, fuel tanks, twice as many things to break down and limited passenger/cargo space.   Having said that, hybrids have been a great stepping stone from ICE to pure electric.

[scottwood2]

I don't see car makers abandoning hybrids. Sure, the C-Max is going but the Model E is supposed to have a hybrid variant, from what I recall reading; and they may have other hybrid vehicles in the works (13 total electric and/or hybrid vehicles by 2020). Toyota has added the Rav 4 hybrid, Hyundai is adding the Ioniq hybrid, Kia the Niro (which looks like the closest, so far, to a C-Max "replacement"), and Chevrolet with the new Malibu -- those are the new hybrid I can think of off the top of my head. Honda seems to be the only one not pushing hybrids -- though they had a lot of issues with their hybrids and they seem to be committed to bringing them back.

 

What I see is carmakers taking the time to build more dedicated EV/hybrid vehicles -- often designing them to have hybrid, plug-in, and pure electric models.

Honda is coming back as you said.  Here is a link to the new Accord. 

[livesmith]

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/08/06/uk-more-charging-stations-gas-stations?cmpid=tp-ptnr-huffpost

 

Hybrids: you can't build an efficient vehicle that includes two motors, two batteries, fuel tanks, twice as many things to break down and limited passenger/cargo space.   Having said that, hybrids have been a great stepping stone from ICE to pure electric.

 

Depends on what conditions you're trying to get that best efficiency from as to what would work best, but then you'd lose out under different conditions.

 

But I'd say the Prius is a pretty efficient vehicle under quite a variety of conditions...

[ptjones]

Depends on what conditions you're trying to get that best efficiency from as to what would work best, but then you'd lose out under different conditions.

 

But I'd say the Prius is a pretty efficient vehicle under quite a variety of conditions...

So is the CMAX! :)

 

Paul

[djc]

Nissan has a new(ish) interesting engine, a variable stroke gas engine.  It uses both direct and port fuel injection.  Variable stroke gives it variable compression ratio (variable from 8-1 to 14-1) and considerably increased efficiency.  It is reported both to be as efficient as diesel but cheaper to make than turbo-diesels with their expensive emission control systems (though probably not cheaper than diesel engines with emission test cheat software). 

Nissan will first use one in an Altima to intro next yearL

 

"The turbo-charged, 2-liter, four-cylinder VC-T engine averages 27 percent better fuel economy than the 3.5-liter V6 engine it replaces, with comparable power and torque. Nissan says the new engine matches the diesel engine in torque – the amount of thrust that helps determine the car's acceleration.

The engine is also cheaper than today's advanced turbo-charged diesel engines, Nissan engineers said at the briefing at the company's technical and design center in Atsugi, south of Tokyo. They said it should also meet nitrogen oxide (NOx) and other emissions rules in certain markets without requiring costly treatment systems."

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-japan-nissan-engine-idUSKCN10P0IK

 

These high-torque efficient and compact engines might be nice in a hybrid set up.

 

Other news: apparently Subaru will intro an all-electric SUV by 2021:

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1105586_all-electric-subaru-crossover-utility-vehicle-coming-in-2021-japanese-report

 

Interesting technology on the horizon....

[stevedebi]

I think the "E" is electric only. They will continue the Energi and Hybrid with the Fusion.

[raadsel]

I think the "E" is electric only. They will continue the Energi and Hybrid with the Fusion.

 

From what I've seen, such as this article, the Model E is supposed to have a hybrid and plug in hybrid version, as well as the pure electric version.

[stevedebi]

From what I've seen, such as this article, the Model E is supposed to have a hybrid and plug in hybrid version, as well as the pure electric version.

Thanks for the link. Looks like I may have to consider it when my lease runs out next year.