When can you drive the car hard? (how to tell if warmed up)

[jackalopetx]

Keep in mind that driving 3000 miles in the C-max will only be about 1300 miles on the ICE---another reason why changing synthetic oil every 3,000 miles is simply a waste of money with no benefit.  And environmentally irresponsible.

 

Starting and stopping engine 50 times a day on a 5 mile commute during which it never reaches normal operating temperature is probably worse for an engine than normal driving

Edited May 19, 2016 by jackalopetx

[livesmith]

Starting and stopping engine 50 times a day on a 5 mile commute during which it never reaches normal operating temperature is probably worse for an engine than normal driving

True. This appears to be a key difference between the Prius and C-Max. The Prius seems to run the engine much more often to keep everything up to temperature.  It seems the C-Max is much more likely to shut off.  I wonder how the long term may differ.  A failed ICE on a Prius seems almost non-existent.

[ptjones]

Starting and stopping engine 50 times a day on a 5 mile commute during which it never reaches normal operating temperature is probably worse for an engine than normal driving

I think the ICE is designed for it, with 132k mi. on mine with little to no oil usage. :)

 

True. This appears to be a key difference between the Prius and C-Max. The Prius seems to run the engine much more often to keep everything up to temperature.  It seems the C-Max is much more likely to shut off.  I wonder how the long term may differ.  A failed ICE on a Prius seems almost non-existent.

I would expect CMAX ICE to last longer, it runs half as much as Prius.  We haven't heard of failed ICE on CMAX that I'm aware of. :)  There are probably 250K CMAX/FFH out their now in three yrs, 8 months of being available. :)

 

Paul

Edited May 19, 2016 by ptjones

[livesmith]

I think the ICE is designed for it, with 132k mi. on mine with little to no oil usage. :)

 

I would expect CMAX ICE to last longer, it runs half as much as Prius.  We haven't heard of failed ICE on CMAX that I'm aware of. :)  There are probably 250K CMAX/FFH out their now in three yrs, 8 months of being available. :)

 

Paul

Yeah, but running an engine at operating temp is about the easiest thing you can do to an engine.  It's the starting and not at temp parts where the wear is more likely...

 

Sure, there are a decent amount of them out there, but 3 years and 8 months is a pretty short amount of time in my mind.  This is the newest car I've had.  Usually I don't get something till it's at least 5 years old.

 

Wonder what the highest mileage C-Maxes have gotten to.

 

Once a good number of people start clearing 250K miles without major ICE trouble then I'd start feeling confident that it's a pretty reliable setup.

 

I'm not saying I have any reason to think otherwise, just that I haven't heard of any long-term data yet.

[ptjones]

Yeah, but running an engine at operating temp is about the easiest thing you can do to an engine.  It's the starting and not at temp parts where the wear is more likely...

 

Sure, there are a decent amount of them out there, but 3 years and 8 months is a pretty short amount of time in my mind.  This is the newest car I've had.  Usually I don't get something till it's at least 5 years old.

 

Wonder what the highest mileage C-Maxes have gotten to.

 

Once a good number of people start clearing 250K miles without major ICE trouble then I'd start feeling confident that it's a pretty reliable setup.

 

I'm not saying I have any reason to think otherwise, just that I haven't heard of any long-term data yet.

VIP TAXI in Phoenix has a fleet  of 2013 CMAX Hybrids with upto 250k miles with no ICE problems. :)

 

Paul

[jackalopetx]

VIP TAXI in Phoenix has a fleet  of 2013 CMAX Hybrids with upto 250k miles with no ICE problems. :)

 

Paul

 

Taxi use is easy on an engine because for most of those miles it's warmed up

[ptjones]

Taxi use is easy on an engine because for most of those miles it's warmed up

Unfortunately this is not true and to make matters worse using the A/C keeps the fan running all the time and makes WT even cooler.  City driving the ICE runs less than it does on the highway. This is the reason I developed Grill Covers which can improve MPG's up to 4 mpg. If you want to test this out for yourself get a ScanGaugeII or similar OBDII gauge and monitor ICE WT.  You will see that it almost never reaches 202*F the start of ICE WT operating range. :)

 

Paul

[livesmith]

I'd agree that the C-Max is likely going to be running colder in city conditions(though I suppose it unlikely but possible these taxi's see more highway use).

 

However, this car must REALLY be super stupidly designed to be kept colder than it should be if the fans are kept on and so strong that running them with AC is dropping the water temp even more than normal.  AC usage should only be raising temps outside the cabin...

 

The more I hear it seems like the car was designed to generally never reach operating temps...

 

 

IIRC, the numbers are something like...

-165F the thermostat starts opening(and this is where it starts taking a long time for the ICE to warm up further)

-202F the thermostat is fully open Which is supposedly the bottom number for normal operating temp...

 

But the shutters don't even open until like 215F or something?

 

 

Just seems like there's a disconnect in the thinking somewhere on Ford's part or I'm missing something...

[jackalopetx]

I'd agree that the C-Max is likely going to be running colder in city conditions(though I suppose it unlikely but possible these taxi's see more highway use).

 

However, this car must REALLY be super stupidly designed to be kept colder than it should be if the fans are kept on and so strong that running them with AC is dropping the water temp even more than normal.  AC usage should only be raising temps outside the cabin...

 

The more I hear it seems like the car was designed to generally never reach operating temps...

 

 

IIRC, the numbers are something like...

-165F the thermostat starts opening(and this is where it starts taking a long time for the ICE to warm up further)

-202F the thermostat is fully open Which is supposedly the bottom number for normal operating temp...

 

But the shutters don't even open until like 215F or something?

 

 

Just seems like there's a disconnect in the thinking somewhere on Ford's part or I'm missing something...

 

Could be because parts of the engine get hotter so the coolant has to flow before the engine warms up fully

[ptjones]

The thermostat starts to open at 182*F and you can watch WT go up pretty quickly and then stop when the thermostat starts to open. ;)  I learned alot about the ICE operation when I  installed my ScanGaugeII.  It would seem everything you knew about a regular ICE you can through out the window.  Hybrids are a new ballgame. :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I've recorded lots of data on shutter operations and ECT.  Here's my observations and facts (to set the record straight :) )..

 

1) Engine coolant thermostat starts to open at  around 180 F and should be fully open at 202 F (this is the spec.)

 

2) HVAC operation, speed, ECT, and ambient temperature determine shutter opening.

 

3) When AC is ON and speed is above 50 mph, the shutters immediately open to 40% and increase in opening based on ambient temperature above around 70F+.

 

4) When AC is ON and speed is below 50 mph, shutter opening is based on speed -  increasing from 40% opening as speed decreases.

 

5) When AC is OFF, shutters are fully closed below around 192 F and fully open above around 212 F and can be in various states of opening between 192 F and 212 F

 

6) So, when ambient temperature is low (say around 32 F), it's unlikely that the ECT ever will get to 202 F (thermostat fully open) as the grille shutters will begin to operate if ECT ever makes it to around 192 F.  This is where the addition of grille covers can significantly increase the operating temperature of ICE as virtually no air gets to the radiator (shutters closed below 192 F or shutters in a state of opening above 192 F and grille blocks on).  Even at around 50F ambient with grille blocks, ECT rarely gets to 212 F in normal driving except when on the interstates at high speed going up long grades.  I've seen ECT at 234 F at 70+ mph and around 50F ambient going up grades at 70+ mph.  On relatively flat interstates, ECT would generally be around 220+- F.  In summary, with grille blocks one should see an increase in FE due to higher ICE operating temperatures and due to better aerodynamics with the grille blocks (no box in front of the grille shutters, just a smooth curved surface).

 

Here's a couple of graphs I put together a while ago showing ambient temp and speed vs grille commanded opening and AC ON and OFF operation.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

I know we have been this way before, but after the ECM update watching shutters with WEB Cam they only were open all the way or closed all the way, no in between.  I need to get another Web Cam to monitor speed and WT.  IIRC shutters would open at 210*F WT below 55mph and 215*F WT above 55mph. :) 

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

And as I said before, when I monitored with my web cam, I saw positions between closed and open.  I do have a new laptop so I should be able to record the operations now.  But, I believe the ForScan data and when I monitor data, I can clearly see that the inferred / commanded shutter operation does affect ECT.

 

I just went out to the garage and verified that the ForScan app is reading the position of the grille shutters.  Start car with AC OFF, grille shutters are closed.  Push AC ON, and grille shutters open to 100%. This tracked the commanded and inferred grille shutter positions in ForScan.  It's too much of a hassle to video record the shutters while driving.  I have no doubt that ForScan is correctly reporting the grille shutter positions.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[jackalopetx]

I got my oil changed at 1356 miles today, will send the sample to Blackstone for analysis.

 

Now that break in is most likely done I finally gave it full throttle getting onto the highway... It's pretty fast

[markd]

Why would you get the oil changed so soon? I jumped the gun and changed mine at 5,000 but 1,300 miles is too soon.

[jackalopetx]

Why would you get the oil changed so soon? I jumped the gun and changed mine at 5,000 but 1,300 miles is too soon.

 

Because the first few hundred miles or 1000 miles put extra metal particles into the oil. Some will get blocked by the filter and some won't. Why would you want to drive 5000 or 10000 miles with gritty metal chunks floating around? There's no reason not to get an oil change after break in aside from the $40 cost

[markd]

That's not what Ford says and they built the car.

[stevedebi]

Because the first few hundred miles or 1000 miles put extra metal particles into the oil. Some will get blocked by the filter and some won't. Why would you want to drive 5000 or 10000 miles with gritty metal chunks floating around? There's no reason not to get an oil change after break in aside from the $40 cost

Some manufacturers actually put special oil in at their factory. I recall my 2003 Honda CR-V had instructions specifically to leave the factory oil in for 7500 miles. Apparently it helped the engine break in.

 

I adhere to the owner manual recommendations on my vehicles. I changed my Energi at 20K, just before the oil monitor would be coming on. If I were driving the hybrid I might push it to 7500K, but not before that, especially with synthetic.

[jackalopetx]

That's not what Ford says and they built the car.

 

I already posted this but somehow my post disappeared:

 

No manufacturer says to change the oil after break in because if they did, buyers would complain to no end about having to go back for service in a couple weeks. Doesn't mean you don't benefit from getting those metal particles out of there

[jackalopetx]

Some manufacturers actually put special oil in at their factory. I recall my 2003 Honda CR-V had instructions specifically to leave the factory oil in for 7500 miles. Apparently it helped the engine break in.

 

I adhere to the owner manual recommendations on my vehicles. I changed my Energi at 20K, just before the oil monitor would be coming on. If I were driving the hybrid I might push it to 7500K, but not before that, especially with synthetic.

 

I've read on at least one forum that Ford doesn't use special break in oil

[markd]

Like I said, I wasn't comfortable going 10,000 miles or about it year without taking it in. I hope that you like your car, it's very good at what it is but performance is just OK. Maybe a Focus SVT might have been a better choice for you.

[jackalopetx]

Like I said, I wasn't comfortable going 10,000 miles or about it year without taking it in. I hope that you like your car, it's very good at what it is but performance is just OK. Maybe a Focus SVT might have been a better choice for you.

 

A Focus SVT would get 20mpg on my commute, possibly worse. With the C-Max I get 45mpg

 

The low end torque gives the C-Max pretty good performance in city driving. For example if you're in the left lane and the car in front of you stops to make a left turn, you don't have to wait and wait and wait until there's no traffic in the right lane. If there's an opening you CAN mash the gas and get up to speed quickly.  Same if you need to accelerate quickly to get across traffic lanes to make a turn. Or merge onto the highway.  

 

I had a turbo Volvo V70 wagon with 215hp and about the same weight as the C-Max, and it was worse in city driving, because the turbo would take time to spool up. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by jackalopetx

[markd]

I usually get up to speed and hit the cruise, I turn the heat/air con off when I can and get great mpg's around town. I spend less than twenty dollars a month for gas and that's hard to beat.

[jackalopetx]

I usually get up to speed and hit the cruise, I turn the heat/air con off when I can and get great mpg's around town. I spend less than twenty dollars a month for gas and that's hard to beat.

 

You must live in a rural area with no traffic-- In Austin you're either on the highway in traffic, or on city streets with a lot of traffic lights and stop signs

[markd]

I'm three miles from downtown Indianapolis in the heart of suburbia, lol! The interstate hurts mpg's best I can do is about 40mpg.