BMW sued over i3 EV sudden drop in speed

[djc]

Apparently at low battery the BWM will drop to 45mph without warning - and happened to Consumer Report tester as he was passing at highway speeds. 

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/bmw/bmw-sued-for-i3-electric-cars-sudden-performance-dropoff/

 

What were they thinking at BMW?

 

side note: as of this posting ConsumerReports.org says at top of web page that the site has free access for 36 hours (I am not sure when this began).  One can read their car reviews and results of owner surveys on repairs and reliability.

[MaxHeadroom]

BMW was being idiotic putting in a small motorcycle engine to power a 3,000 lb vehicle when the battery dies.

Its a back-up generator for when the battery is depleted, but also allows a driver to continue on down the road at pathetic unsafe performance levels.

 

Not like our powerful 2.0L hybrid gas engines in our CMaxes at all.  Different set-up.

BMW i3's are also sold as pure-electric (no backup generator 'Rex'), so the NHTSA may be banning the manufacture of weak propulsion modes like that in the future, leaving just the electric car variant of the BMW i3, sans tiny engine.

[mlsstl]

BMW was being idiotic putting in a small motorcycle engine to power a 3,000 lb vehicle when the battery dies.

Its a back-up generator for when the battery is depleted, but also allows a driver to continue on down the road at pathetic unsafe performance levels.

 

Not like our powerful 2.0L hybrid gas engines in our CMaxes at all.  Different set-up.

BMW i3's are also sold as pure-electric (no backup generator 'Rex'), so the NHTSA may be banning the manufacture of weak propulsion modes like that in the future, leaving just the electric car variant of the BMW i3, sans tiny engine.

 

I've test driven an i3 and it is a very good car, fast and fun to drive, but it is designed for a very specific use -- it is an urban use vehicle. It comes in two models. One is electric only and has no gas engine at all. The other, the "REX" model, has a small gas engine. It is not hooked up directly to the power train in any fashion; it simply runs a generator that will recharge the battery, basically for emergency situations.

 

The gas engine limitations have far more to do with tax credits in California than anything else. If the backup generator engine and gas tank had been any bigger, it would not have qualified as an electric car under the law. Once again, a case of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

 

The C-Max hybrid is basically designed as an all-purpose car to get more mileage out of a gas engine situation. The Energi can be electric only, but only in a fairly limited set of situations. The i3, including the REX, is designed as an all-electric, all-the-time, urban only vehicle. Anyone who gets caught by surprise by the speed limitation with a depleted battery didn't bother reading the instructions. It's a limp mode.

[MaxHeadroom]

I've test driven an i3 and it is a very good car, fast and fun to drive, but it is designed for a very specific use -- it is an urban use vehicle. It comes in two models. One is electric only and has no gas engine at all. The other, the "REX" model, has a small gas engine. It is not hooked up directly to the power train in any fashion; it simply runs a generator that will recharge the battery, basically for emergency situations.

 

The gas engine limitations have far more to do with tax credits in California than anything else. If the backup generator engine and gas tank had been any bigger, it would not have qualified as an electric car under the law. Once again, a case of "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

You don't quite understand what's going on with the BMW i3 Rex problem.

Basically, anytime when driving in Rex-mode (when the battery is toast), the car can suddenly go into a dangerous slow-speed, near-zero peformance situation.  This is often "caused" by hills, headwinds, passengers on-board, etc., all normal things, as the battery gets depleted completely and ALL YOU HAVE is a weak 34-hp lawnmower engine to get you going in traffic.

 

You can say "Its a city car" all you want, but we know people will still take their BMW i3 on the highway and get into the pathetically powered slow modes.

[mlsstl]

You don't quite understand what's going on with the BMW i3 Rex problem.

Basically, anytime when driving in Rex-mode (when the battery is toast), the car can suddenly go into a dangerous slow-speed, near-zero peformance situation.  This is often "caused" by hills, headwinds, passengers on-board, etc., all normal things, as the battery gets depleted completely and ALL YOU HAVE is a weak 34-hp lawnmower engine to get you going in traffic.

 

You can say "Its a city car" all you want, but we know people will still take their BMW i3 on the highway and get into the pathetically powered slow modes.

 

Nope. I fully understood that was the situation when I considered the car last year. It is disclosed in the owners manual and the info is readily available with even a modicum of research. The i3 has several discussion forums similar to this one where you can read about all manner of praise and complaints. The REX is an emergency backup system -- an electric car equivalent to carrying a spare gas can around. Another analogy is a space saving spare. They are only good for a few miles and at very limited speeds. They are only intended to get you to a spot where the situation can be correctly addressed.

 

Yes, some people will buy a city car and take it on a highway. Some people carry mattresses on top of their cars because the interior isn't big enough, or drive around with their tailgate open with lumber sticking out. Some people try to take their sports car off-road, and so on. Any car that has ever been sold has its limitations and people find a way to exceed them.

 

Rather like buying a hammer and then complaining it won't drill a precise 1/4" countersunk hole in a 2X4. "I'm suing!"   

Edited May 23, 2016 by mlsstl

[stevedebi]

I agree with Max. The vehicle is intended to run in town. I'm sure what is going to happen is that BMW is going to add programming to raise the amount of reserve if the car is going at highway speeds, so that it will enter the "limp home" mode sooner, and provide more warning before it happens.

 

Or maybe they will just dispense with the gas version entirely. Makes room for a bit more battery.

Edited May 23, 2016 by stevedebi

[raadsel]

From what I understand about this lawsuit, I think it needs to be thrown out of court. This reminds me of the warning that are now "required", such as not to touch the bottom of the iron while it is on. If I understand it correctly, this is similar to a Tesla owner suing that his car stopped on the freeway because his he ran out of power in the battery, or a Ford owner suing because his Explorer ran out of gas on the freeway and the car stopped. 

 

As has been stated here, the i3 is an EV -- not a hybrid -- so you have to have battery power. While the ICE in the i3 can charge the engine in an emergency, it is meant to extend your range, not to power the car when you deplete the battery.

[mlsstl]

I agree with Max. The vehicle is intended to run in town. I'm sure what is going to happen is that BMW is going to add programming to raise the amount of reserve if the car is going at highway speeds, so that it will enter the "limp home" mode sooner, and provide more warning before it happens.

 

Or maybe they will just dispense with the gas version entirely. Makes room for a bit more battery.

 

As a point of information, the REX's backup gas generator comes on much sooner in European models (in fact, I think you can turn it on anytime you wish.) That wasn't permitted in the U.S. version in order to meet the EV requirements in California. The generator cannot come on until a certain battery depletion level is reached. Even the size of the gas tank was limited -- California rules said the car could not drive further with the engine running than it could on battery power alone.

 

This is hardly the first time that rules in one or a few states affected products that are sold in all 50 states.

[MaxHeadroom]

I feel like the above comments don't really capture completely what's going on with the lawsuit.

 

Scenario:  The driver depletes the battery down to 6% battery juice left, effectively out, but really not quite yet.

Then, the Rex engine starts up back there under the hatchback and sticks some charge back into the the battery, BUT ONLY to maintain about 6% and no more.  

The car performs very well when the battery charge is about 4%-6%, no problem there, which it will have in most city driving environments.

 

Here is where the trouble happens:  A hill, headwind, heavy passengers/cargo, higher speeds, etc., burden the power demands too much, and the tiny 34 hp (yep, it's that weak!) engine can't keep up with keeping the battery charged to it's narrow range of a mere 4%-6%.

So what happens?  The car loses acceleration power for emergency passing, & is a moving roadblock in traffic since it's now in "Snail Mode", and startles drivers with that behavior.  Other cars & 18-wheelers on the road may hit the BMW i3 "Roadblock" at that point.

 

Key Information:   During the entire 80-mile operation of the Rex range extender engine (battery dead, running on gas), the car will go in and out of that "Snail Mode" as battery charge fluctuates, meaning you are tortured for the entire 80 miles, off and on, as power demands might fluctuate.

 

People have likened this to running out of gas in a pure-gasoline car, or running out of electrons in a Tesla, yet this is different in that you can go in and out of this Snail Mode pathetic performance at any high-power-demanding moment when running for a while on the Rex gas engine.  It can happen over and over again, not really stopping, but CHANGING its performance drastically as you drive in Rex gas engine mode.

 

Clarifying:  When you're out of gasoline in a normal pure-gasoline (ICE or C-Max) car, or out of battery charge in a pure-battery (BEV) car, your car quits cold, and nobody gets sued because that's all physics will allow.

On the other hand, BMW has placed this weird In-n-Out slow performance mode mixed in to up to 80 miles of driving in BMW i3 Rex mode.

[mlsstl]

Maxheadroom - 2 comments. First, regarding " When you're out of gasoline in a normal pure-gasoline (ICE or C-Max) car, or out of battery charge in a pure-battery (BEV) car, your car quits cold, and nobody gets sued because that's all physics will allow."

 

You grossly underestimate the imagination of the plaintiff's bar. There have been plenty of lawsuits over cars suddenly stalling in traffic due to an empty gas tank.

 

Second, regarding your comment about the issue happening "over and over again" for 80 miles. I would argue that the driver is an idiot. Why would you continue driving in unsafe conditions? Pull over to the side and call for help.

 

Most space saving spare tires have a distance limit of 50 or so miles and a speed limit of 50ish  -- limitations quite similar to the REX in limp mode. The tire was designed to only get you to the next stop where you could get a real tire back on the car. Is it the tire's fault if the driver leaves it on for a couple hundred miles and goes 70 or 80 mph or the driver drives 50 mph in heavy high speed traffic causing problems for others?

 

At what point do you look at a person and say "you're an idiot. You bought the wrong car!"?

[MaxHeadroom]

^^^ mlsstl,  I see your points about people using bad judgement.  However, here we have BMW placing a glimmer of hope that a driver just continue on for the full 80 miles of gasoline travel after the battery is dead.

For example, one person wrote into a BMW i3 forum recently asking if he should buy an i3 Rex model to use on L.A.'s infamous 405 freeway, and many people said, sure, go for it, the Rex will "keep you moving".   Fact is people will treat the Rex gas-only mode as being a routine thing, since finding a charging station is rough and takes forever to recharge.

 

Its worth noting that several years ago at GM, when they were deciding what size engine the original Chevy Volt should have, they had a similar debate.

Chevy (GM) decided that it just wouldn't be safe enough to put in a lawn-mower-sized engine in the car, and instead they opted for a powerful engine to allow people to drive safely and NOT play the Energy Optimization Game, which many would lose.

 

At BMW, the debate went more along the lines of "Let Grandma or somebody's 17 year old daughter figure it out in real-time, at night, in winter, in a headwind, and be danged with them."  --(or really it was "Lassen Sie Oma oder 17 Jahre alte Tochter Figur es ist jemand aus in Echtzeit , in der Nacht, im Winter, in einem Gegenwind , und sein danged mit ihnen."

[fbov]

Been a month... still can't quote, still can't paste... really hard to participate!

 

Quote from mstssl.

 

You can't sue a company for complying with state law. An i3 REX that's compliant with CA law only has this problem because it complies with CA law. Sue California, or perhaps your elementary school for not teaching you reading comprehension. Waste of money, for everyone but the lawyers.

 

And this car is far safer than a car that can run out of fuel. I've seen two cases of cars that stopped in the middle lane of a freeway. Both drew ambulances, one a mortician. Neither had an option to limp to the shoulder, or other safe location.

 

Suing a manufacturer for your own idiocy is sadly a very American thing to do. Unintended acceleration anyone?

 

Have fun,

Frank

[MaxHeadroom]

And this car is far safer than a car that can run out of fuel. I've seen two cases of cars that stopped in the middle lane of a freeway. Both drew ambulances, one a mortician. Neither had an option to limp to the shoulder, or other safe location.

 

Suing a manufacturer for your own idiocy is sadly a very American thing to do. Unintended acceleration anyone?

 

Have fun,

Frank

Frank, frankly, you're way off.  First of all, ALL cars, BMW i3, or any vehicle, can run out of gas or electricity and just stop, no exceptions, just a limit of pure physics so nobody ever gets sued for it.  The BMW i3 has nothing to do with running out of gas, it has everything to do with weird, dangerous situations it foists upon people AS THEY DRIVE.  Big huge difference. 

 

Secondly, your example of Unintended Accel being frivolous irks guys like me who are mechanical and software engineers, since some car companies put in brake overrides to kill the throttle signal when braking, a simple thing Toyota and some others were too STUPID to implement.

[livesmith]

Secondly, your example of Unintended Accel being frivolous irks guys like me who are mechanical and software engineers, since some car companies put in brake overrides to kill the throttle signal when braking, a simple thing Toyota and some others were too STUPID to implement.

Not sure the specifics of what you're referring to, but as the owner of a 2004 Prius during the time of all that stupid unintended acceleration, I can assure you I played with my car.  I could find about a half dozen ways to initiate deceleration and most importantly if you push the brake pedal the car comes to a STOP.  There's absolutely no way to press both pedals to the floor and have the car moving.  If that idiot fried his brakes, the only way I can see to do it would be to hold both pedals at some careful mid point so you're just dragging the brakes.

 

Find any car in decent shape where the brakes don't stop the car besides whatever you do with the gas.