Prius V getting below EPA

[darrelld]

According to Fuelly there are at least 30 Prius V owners that are getting below 40 mpg? The combined EPA rating for the Prius V is 42, any speculation about why this set of owners are unable to achieve EPA?

[valkraider]

Because EPA tests don't reflect real world driving?

 

I don't get EPA numbers in my truck either.

[kechair]

Perhaps it is weight related? With Prius V having bigger hauling capacity, I would think people buying V's are hauling lots of stuff as well as people. Not sure if EPA takes into account cargo/weight.

 

I'm suspecting that may be a factor in my own MPGs for the CMax. I have read a lot of people posting about their high and low MPGs, but very rarely do I hear mention about how many people or what cargo they are hauling around. Wonder if anyone knows of research on weight as a factor to fuel economy?

[darrelld]

Perhaps it is weight related? With Prius V having bigger hauling capacity, I would think people buying V's are hauling lots of stuff as well as people. Not sure if EPA takes into account cargo/weight. I'm suspecting that may be a factor in my own MPGs for the CMax. I have read a lot of people posting about their high and low MPGs, but very rarely do I hear mention about how many people or what cargo they are hauling around. Wonder if anyone knows of research on weight as a factor to fuel economy?

 

 

In some of the lower than EPA Prius drivers the notes reveal sustained higher than 60 mph highway miles. 

[CNCGeek]

It does not make much sense to look at the extremes on things as subjective as fuel economy (since there are too many possible variables at both the high and low end).  The Prius V average is 42.3mpg on fuelly and thats really what matters.

[darrelld]

It does not make much sense to look at the extremes on things as subjective as fuel economy (since there are too many possible variables at both the high and low end).  The Prius V average is 42.3mpg on fuelly and thats really what matters.

 

29% or almost 1/3 of all the reported Prius V get below the 42 combined EPA, thats not a small percentage.

[CNCGeek]

29% or almost 1/3 of all the reported Prius V get below the 42 combined EPA, thats not a small percentage.

I see 212 Prius V's being tracked on Fuelly, how are you getting 1/3rd?

 

Ah, nm, you are seeing all the vehicles getting below 42, I was going by what the OP said (30 vehicles). I think the spread is what is important though.

 

IMHO, getting one or two MPG less than EPA is not a big deal for most people, but if it were 5mpg less that may be.

 

There are only 17 of 212 Prius V's on Fuelly getting 38mpg or less.

Edited December 6, 2012 by CNCGeek

[darrelld]

I see 212 Prius V's being tracked on Fuelly, how are you getting 1/3rd?

 

Ah, nm, you are seeing all the vehicles getting below 42, I was going by what the OP said (30 vehicles). I think the spread is what is important though.

 

IMHO, getting one or two MPG less than EPA is not a big deal for most people, but if it were 5mpg less that may be.

 

There are only 17 of 212 Prius V's on Fuelly getting 38mpg or less.

vehicles mpg

24 41

17 40

14 39

6 38

7 37

2 36

2 35

--------------------

55

 

55/212 = .25 or 1/4

 

Point was that is not a small amount getting below the EPA combined mpg.

 

Are you currently or formerly a Prius owner?

[CNCGeek]

Are you currently or formerly a Prius owner?

 

Not sure what that has to do with anything, do you have something against the Prius? ;)

[darrelld]

Not sure what that has to do with anything, do you have something against the Prius? ;)

Nothing personally. I site Prius examples as an established hybrid reference point for comparison of data.

[valkraider]

Not sure what that has to do with anything, do you have something against the Prius? ;)

People keep claiming that the Prius beats EPA numbers and the C-Max does not.

 

 

[CNCGeek]

Nothing personally. I site Prius examples as an established hybrid reference point for comparison of data.

People keep claiming that the Prius beats EPA numbers and the C-Max does not.

 

 

I'm neither a Prius or C-max promoter - until a car washes itself and drives me to work everyday, I probably wont be a "fan" of any car.  I did buy a C-max which may tell you something though :)  

 

I agree the comprison to the V is fair (Ford has used it in their ads even). 

 

When I look at the fuelly data curve for the Prius V, it is somewhat bell shaped with the most vehicles right on 42mpg (also the EPA rating), which is how I would expect it to be.  The C-max curve is still developing, but the claimed 47 is far over to the right, with the most (by a very small margin) at 39mpg now. From the fuelly data and my own experience owning the C-max, this seems reasonable.  I think there would be no concern if the C-max fuelly chart (as a reflection of real world mpg) was beginning to look similar to the Prius V chart, except shifted to center on 47mpg - but it will be a while before the fuelly chart gets filled out enough, and there is a larger sample with vehicles past their 1500 mile break in period to draw better conclusions, maybe later this spring.

 

Prius V Fuelly Chart (212 vehicles tracked)

 

C-Max Fuelly Chart ( 31 vehicles tracked)

Edited December 6, 2012 by CNCGeek

[darrelld]

I'm neither a Prius or C-max promoter - until a car washes itself and drives me to work everyday, I probably wont be a "fan" of any car.  I did buy a C-max which may tell you something though :)  

 

I agree the comprison to the V is fair (Ford has used it in their ads even). 

 

When I look at the fuelly data curve for the Prius V, it is somewhat bell shaped with the most vehicles right on 42mpg (also the EPA rating), which is how I would expect it to be.  The C-max curve is still developing, but the claimed 47 is far over to the right, with the most (by a very small margin) at 39mpg now. From the fuelly data and my own experience owning the C-max, this seems reasonable.  I think there would be no concern if the C-max fuelly chart (as a reflection of real world mpg) was beginning to look similar to the Prius V chart, except shifted to center on 47mpg - but it will be a while before the fuelly chart gets filled out enough, and there is a larger sample with vehicles past their 1500 mile break in period to draw better conclusions, maybe later this spring.

 

Prius V Fuelly Chart (212 vehicles tracked)

 

 

C-Max Fuelly Chart ( 31 vehicles tracked)

I agree completely with those findings. I don't have a way to test the mpg claims personally because my wife drives the C-Max 5 days of the week. When I drive EPA ratings are easy to achieve and exceed based upon dash readings. I have corrected for dash error. : )

Edited December 6, 2012 by darrelld

[CNCGeek]

I think what your observations of your own and your wife's driving habits are in relation to mpg is exactly the reason why the real world numbers are so important, and also explain why some of the Prius V owners are not seeing the advertised mpg.  In your case, you may be at the right side of the mpg curve and your wife on the left.  IMHO, what seems most important about the fuelly charts is that the average for the Prius V does settle in at the EPA rated mpg, which tells me it is much less of a stretch to get the EPA rated mpg with the V.  The C-max on the other hand has too little data on Fuelly to draw a conclusion on the average, but the initial data does not suggest it will be very close to the 47mpg EPA rating (right now nobody is getting 47mpg average according to the fuelly data). 

 

I think that the title of this post would have more fairly been "Some Prius V's getting below EPA".

Edited December 6, 2012 by CNCGeek

[darrelld]

I think what your observations of your own and your wife's driving habits are in relation to mpg is exactly the reason why the real world numbers are so important, and also explain why some of the Prius V owners are not seeing the advertised mpg.  In your case, you may be at the right side of the mpg curve and your wife on the left.  IMHO, what seems most important about the fuelly charts is that the average for the Prius V does settle in at the EPA rated mpg, which tells me it is much less of a stretch to get the EPA rated mpg with the V.  The C-max on the other hand has too little data on Fuelly to draw a conclusion on the average, but the initial data does not suggest it will be very close to the 47mpg EPA rating (right now nobody is getting 47mpg average according to the fuelly data). 

 

I think that the title of this post would have more fairly been "Some Prius V's getting below EPA".

I can't say whats causing the 25% of all reported Prius V drivers to get below the EPA combined mpg and it wouldn't be fair for me to speculate why. Possibly some other defect with those models? I know when my Lexus IS stated getting poor fuel economy I had a fuel leak and later Toyota issued 2 recalls for defective fuel pumps.

[CNCGeek]

I can't say whats causing the 25% of all reported Prius V drivers to get below the EPA combined mpg and it wouldn't be fair for me to speculate why. Possibly some other defect with those models? I know when my Lexus IS stated getting poor fuel economy I had a fuel leak and later Toyota issued 2 recalls for defective fuel pumps.

 

I think the most likely possibilty is that there is nothing wrong with them, when you remove the drivers getting EPA mph -3 (39mpg) the numbers drop off considerably.  The Prius V chart looks like a normal bell curve for the most part, and the folks getting a greatly reduced mpg (EPA -4 or less) may have some other driving habits or requirements (such as running a business with gear in the car all the time) which cause the hit to mpg.  On the flip side, the drivers getting EPA + 3 may be hypermiling or rarely haul any passengers or cargo.  Hopefully the C-max data  will fill up similar to the Prius V chart when more people put their data up there (I am going to do that on my next fuel up).  What seems most interesting about the Prius V chart (and what makes it a formidable challenge for the C-max) is that it is centered right on the EPA estimated mpg which is where it should be in a perfect world - which this is not.  We will see if the C-max can live in the same perfect world as the Prius :)

Edited December 6, 2012 by CNCGeek

[darrelld]

 

I think the most likely possibilty is that there is nothing wrong with them, when you remove the drivers getting EPA mph -3 (39mpg) the numbers drop off considerably.  The Prius V chart looks like a normal bell curve for the most part, and the folks getting a greatly reduced mpg (EPA -4 or less) may have some other driving habits or requirements (such as running a business with gear in the car all the time) which cause the hit to mpg.  On the flip side, the drivers getting EPA + 3 may be hypermiling or rarely haul any passengers or cargo.  Hopefully the C-max data  will fill up similar to the Prius V chart when more people put their data up there (I am going to do that on my next fuel up).  What seems most interesting about the Prius V chart (and what makes it a formidable challenge for the C-max) is that it is centered right on the EPA estimated mpg which is where it should be in a perfect world - which this is not.  We will see if the C-max can live in the same perfect world as the Prius :)

 

Whats even more interesting is the Consumer Reports test that show the Prius and Prius C not hitting their combined EPA average. The Prius was 6 miles below EPA and the Prius C was 7 miles below EPA? That completely contradicts the Fuelly data, if you believe CR.

[CNCGeek]

Whats even more interesting is the Consumer Reports test that show the Prius and Prius C not hitting their combined EPA average. The Prius was 6 miles below EPA and the Prius C was 7 miles below EPA? That completely contradicts the Fuelly data, if you believe CR.

I don't really trust CR when it comes to FE testing - I trust the fuelly numbers much more.  Fuelly has a bigger sample of vehicles in different locations and climates, so their data is probably a better gauge of real world FE.  Right now the c-max does not have enough users tracking their FE on Fuelly though.  However, fuelly data is possibly subject to manipulation or user error, things I'd hope CR would not have problems with.  There is also the possibility that the people who really care about FE, and therefore try to get better mileage, are more likely to use fuelly - but thats just me talking out of my tailpipe.

[darrelld]

I don't really trust CR when it comes to FE testing - I trust the fuelly numbers much more.  Fuelly has a bigger sample of vehicles in different locations and climates, so their data is probably a better gauge of real world FE.  Right now the c-max does not have enough users tracking their FE on Fuelly though.  However, fuelly data is possibly subject to manipulation or user error, things I'd hope CR would not have problems with.  There is also the possibility that the people who really care about FE, and therefore try to get better mileage, are more likely to use fuelly - but thats just me talking out of my tailpipe.

 

I agree with your Fuelly analysis, I also believe the same about people who buy Prius vs C-Max. I believe the Prius demographic tends toward those want to do everything they can to optimize economy. Ed Begley for example drives a Prius.

 

I believe those people will buy a  C-Max but probably lean more toward the Energi. Ford data reveals that most C-Max buyer traded in competitors vehicles, but they don't break that out to hybrid, TDI, etc. I see several, including my self, TDI owners who traded mentioned on this forum.

[valkraider]

 I see several, including my self, TDI owners who traded mentioned on this forum.

 

+1

 

Jetta TDI to C-Max Energi

[valkraider]

 I believe the Prius demographic tends toward those want to do everything they can to optimize economy. 

 

ding!

 

Also, may be more inclined to use a site like fuelly.

 

I bet a lot of c-max customers don't even ever look at anything about cars online...  After all, it's "just another Ford"... ;)

[ptjones]

I bet you if you could check most PriusV owners had a Prius before so that would push MPG numbers to the plus side vs CMAX has alot of new Hybrid owners which would push the numbers to the minus side. There are just a small number of CMAX on FUELLY plus  about four are getting ridiculously low numbers, makes you wonder if they are real or not. Most people on this forum seem to be improving their MPG's.

[CNCGeek]

I believe those people will buy a  C-Max but probably lean more toward the Energi. Ford data reveals that most C-Max buyer traded in competitors vehicles, but they don't break that out to hybrid, TDI, etc. I see several, including my self, TDI owners who traded mentioned on this forum.

I agree, the Prius has a strong reputation for reliability and efficiency which will be hard for Ford to beat. I would bet that if not already, their customers will figure this out, and Ford will probably be bringing in many more new hybrid owners rather than stealing away Prius owners/buyers. Prius owners whom I have spoken with, tend to have a good feel for why they get good fuel economy, and they may get their antenna up with the C-max since it is both heavier and has more HP than the Prius V. I also suspect that the Prius crowd will do their homework before buying. OTOH, somebody who has not considered the C-max or any hybrid will find that it drives just like any other car, has a reasonable price, and it gets pretty decent fuel economy (and I am referring to the more likely 41mpg rather than the 47mpg EPA rating). It's too bad that they marketed the heck out of the 47mpg number since rightly or wrongly it is going to dog them. The C-max is not a Prius which is why I bought it.

[CNCGeek]

ding!

 

Also, may be more inclined to use a site like fuelly.

 

I bet a lot of c-max customers don't even ever look at anything about cars online...  After all, it's "just another Ford"... ;)

If this is the case (and it applied to car owners in general) then the Fuelly data would still be relevant, even if it were skewed to higher mpg drivers.

[valkraider]

If this is the case (and it applied to car owners in general) then the Fuelly data would still be relevant, even if it were skewed to higher mpg drivers.

You threw in the "and it applied to car owners in general" while we clearly were discussing differences between CMAX and Prius owners...