Old and New (Hybrids, that it)

[fbov]

 

It's not the sea change from RWD Volvo to C-Max... in fact, they're very similar if you lift the C-Max about 6"! I'll get keys tomorrow. 

Frank

[C-MaxJaxon]

Congrats! There may be a Velocity Blue hybrid or plug-in in my future this year or next.

 

I went from a RWD 2005 Cadillac CTS to the C-Max. CTS was more fun to drive and got about half the MPG. CTS had better steering and suspension, but the C-Max comes surprisingly close. ? The turning radius does not compare, though. ?

[ptjones]

Congrats!? I'm interested in the MPG's and details about the car.?

 

Paul

[fbov]

Promising... for 42.2 MPG coming home from the market (warm start). I'm letting it get buried in snow. My apologies for the weather. 

Frank

Edited January 19, 2020 by fbov

[plus 3 golfer]

Congrats, it’s good we have an Escape Hybrid owner that can compare it to the C-Max.  How’s the turning radius?

[fbov]

Turning radius is no different than any other FWD Ford. 

[fbov]

Time for a report. I'm over 100 miles now, and I've done nothing to the car. Tire pressures (max 41 psi BTW) are at 33 psi. Fuel is whatever the dealer put in, 87E10 I suspect. Initial aerodynamic mods were temporary, "snow covered" the first day.

 

It's a very nice car. Ride is quiet and smoother than the C-Max at 50 psi on the tires. No idea if it's as nimble. Ride height doesn't seem much higher until you realize you can see over the C-Max next to you. The car is 4.5"  taller and you sit higher in it so it feels like twice that. The sloping hood gives the same kind of forward view, so it's really not noticeable at the wheel. I like the inside rearview mirror better (darker) and don't miss the wide-angle mirrors on the wings as much as expected. BLISS isn't intrusive, although I do get an odd steering feel sometimes, I really miss the road feedback of a direct steering linkage, but the computer can't save the unskilled driver without being in control. I'm waiting for Big Brother to take over, like the C-Max did with the faulty RSC module.  

 

I believe all hybrids get the fancy display, speed to the left, power to the right with a user-selectable screen in between. The power screen shows ICE and EV kW being provided, based on throttle position, switching to a single regen power display on braking. There's also a perimeter display around the numbers, 0-180 kW of power, with regen displayed as negative values. There is no "My View" option. 

 

The center screen shows the kind of data C-Max shows in the left display, like trip odos, along with an EV Coach that's similar to the C-Max Empower screen power display. A single horizontal bar shows Regen power to the left and ICE power, EV power, and EV Available to the right. Yes, the blue outline showing EV Available in the Empower screen has been retained, and it behaves similarly. I can EV up to a maximum of 19 kW at speed before the ICE kicks in. The only sign of HVB charge status is a shrinking blue outline in EV. When the ICE runs, EV Available shrinks to sort of say "I'm here" without saying how much is there. I'm learning to use the throttle to switch to EV, but it's not as easy as the C-Max. At the same time, "chasing blue" from a stop works much better; I'm routinely getting to 20 MPH before ICE kicks in. 

 

That said, the first time I went out to see what I had, I hit 50.4 MPG in 32F weather over snow-covered roads. Auspicious, but I drove slow and had a tail wind. This was my old work commute, albeit at 3:00 AM Sunday morning, so I also took a return trip that was faster into head wind. I had no traffic and a very well known route where ICE burns points and durations were well defined over many years. Average trip time was 35 minutes for 15.3 miles, same as C-Max, at 48.4 MPG for the round trip. Average in the C-Max at 32F was 45.4 MPG, but those were 100% cold starts, which this was not. Still, auspicious at least. 

 

The one big dissatisfier is the block heater... Ford didn't route the cable, just left it behind the engine. Dealer set it up under the hood and using about half the clamps, clips and tie-downs placed along the harness, and a ton of slack. I doubt Ford issued a generic power cord. If anyone has access to the Ford routing documentation, I'd be very grateful. It's length easily reaches the lowest grill opening where there's lots of space and easy access. Under the hood is a non-starter. 

 

Any questions?

Frank

Edited January 22, 2020 by fbov

[SnowStorm]

Thanks for your reports - jealous of the extra ground clearance!

Is there room for a full size spare (even if the floor cover has to stay raised a bit)?  I looked at an Escape Hybrid at my dealer and there was room for a larger diameter than the temporary spare.

By "apologies for the weather" I suppose you mean keeping all the snow up there and not sharing any with Virginia?  SnowStorm hasn't had his fill yet!

[C-MaxA2]

From what I have heard there is NOT room for a full size spare in the 2020 Escape Hybrid.  They couldn't do it for the same reason they didn't in the C-Max; not enough room given the battery size. Sadly, it is what it is. 

What one sees in the gas 2020 Escape is not what is necessarily the same in the hybrid model.  For example: the gas model has some seat adjustment in the rear seats. I understand the Hybrid model does NOT have that.  

Again - there are sacrifices made to make a hybrid and these are some of them.

But I'm willing to go with the Escape given the larger cargo area of the 2020 Hybrid vs the C-Max. I won't be in the market (I'm not rich enough) until at least 2024 when there are used 2023s on the market.  

[fbov]

The back end is interesting; Ford took a modular approach, using large styrofoam blocks to define the underfloor space and support the cargo floor. The undersized spare sits on a spacer, bolted to a bracket over the 12v battery, and surrounding blocks give the floor even support. The 155/70-17 spare has lots of room around it, but not enough to fit a 225/55-19. The well is only about 28" wide while the tire is 29" tall. A slight undersize might fit, but then you have to deal with height since the load floor sits on the mini-spare. And a slight undersize still causes speed mismatch on the axel, so there's no great advantage over the mini-spare. 

 

And we're not keeping any snow up here. 5' have fallen, but there's barely any on the ground. Warm January...

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited January 22, 2020 by fbov

[fbov]

2 hours ago, C-MaxA2 said:

From what I have heard...

You heard wrong on both counts. Please post in the "Who is going to jump..." thread. This thread is not for speculation. 

Everyone is welcome to ask questions, but please answer ONLY if you're an owner, speaking from experience. Facts are welcomed, rumors are not. 

- my rear seats recline, and move fore and aft. 

- my spare tire well is the same sheet metal as non-hybrids; neither will fit a full size tire.  

 

The only potential "hybrid sacrifice" is the flat load floor. Non-hybrids can tilt the floor to match the plane of the rear seats. The battery under the spare tire prevents this in the hybrid, but it also gives the load floor great center support.  

 

I look forward to more owner participation in the near future....

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited January 22, 2020 by fbov

[ptjones]

Here is where I have my cord on CMAX.

 

Paul

[fbov]

Thanks, Paul. Yours is just where I imagined it, but it looked like an aftermarket kluge job with the harness armor and cap over the prongs, when it didn't get caught in the hinge or crushed when closing the hood. I came around to the idea that I paid for factory install, and I want no excuses if there are warranty issues. 

Frank

[fbov]

More observations.

 

The hood latch is a double pull to open; there's no safety latch to find with fingertips under the edge of the hood. If you don't get the hood fully closed the first time, you have to go back in the cabin to open it. 18" is about the right drop to latch mine. Yes, the hood still  has a prop bar...

 

Unlike C-Max, there's a seal at the front edge of the hood, so airflow is much smoother from the point of the nose over the hood. I hope it reduces rust; my car's hood edge perforated. I noticed the tailgate is also lower than the roofline, just like the C-Max, but with a couple air baffles spanning the gap underneath. 

 

Wheels are very different from C-Max. The silver areas you see in photos are coplanar; the face is nearly flat with depressions where its open. C-Max wheel have many small spokes sticking up, into the air flow, like fan blades. They never looked efficient....

 

Paul, I believe you use wheel covers; what kind of effect do you see? 

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

Worth 2 mpg.?

 

Paul

[fbov]

Now over 200 miles and more observations. 

 

I finally found "grade assist." It's undocumented. Despite the manual's instruction to "Press the grade assist button to activate grade assist," I am unable to find the button! However, I did a long downhill today that normally had C-Max Grade Assist filling HVB and running the engine if I didn't brake before the bottom. To my surprise, the "Hill Descent Control" light came on (same icon as C-Max Grade Assist) and regen cranked up to 30 kW. It acted a little differently at the bottom of the hill, but the engine never turned. Once I knew what to look for, it seems to act like the L setting on the C-Max transmission, but only when going downhill. As I moved the throttle, regen lessened based on position, through zero, until it switched to EV. I'll have to go through the menus again to see if there's a setting option. 

 

I've driven enough to feel there's little-to-no loss in EV capability with the smaller HVB. I think they're charging more quickly when the HVB is low. I see the EV Available outline shrink as the HVB runs down, but find a short ICE burn gets me back past 10 kW available (of about 20 kW max). There's enough energy to EV for a bit. As a result, I think the maximum EV range is lower, but useful EV is accessible more of the time. 

 

Weather's warmer today so I've been driving a bit more aggressively. Handling isn't as quick as the C-Max, but it's not bad. These domestic Ecopias are fairly linear but I can feel a safe mushiness coming at the limit. This car has electric steering, and I do feel that bit of isolation, but it's fast enough for quick maneuvering. 

 

I also got to try out the AWD today, up a long, steep, snow-covered driveway. I needed my brakes at the top, while the C-Max has barely made it on occasion. It's warm today, and the snow was soft so the full-tread tires had a lot of bite. The car was very stable accelerating up the hill (sharp turn at the bottom) and it seemed I wasn't pushing the car at all.  But I wasn't looking at the dash so no idea how hard I was actually pushing it. 

 

Having fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

I agree with your assessment with the handling, FEH has more body roll and not as crisp of turning response, but not bad. Some of that could be tire pressure, I'd raise them up to 44 psi. and I think the EV has a little more power. Sounds like you are having fun.?

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

16 hours ago, fbov said:

Now over 200 miles and more observations. 

 

... These domestic Ecopias are fairly linear but I can feel a safe mushiness coming at the limit...

What Ecopias?  Sounds similar to feeling I had with the Ecopia 422+  (even at 48-50 psi on the C-Max) although I didn’t then feel as “safe” as I do now with the AltiMax RT43s (virtually no mushiness perhaps do to higher load rating).

[DarenHayes]

So jealous Frank !! very nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!i want one hahaa.. the interior , especially the displays are so futuristic and cool. Did i mention i want one ??? 

I have the factory block heater on my cmax , i totally forgot i even had it til last year LOL.. the block heater cord is in the left back of the engine, and the block heater attachment cord plugs into that socket...
anyway, i just plugged it in to the socket and i more or less just routed it myself  but i have it peaking out under the hood I (i guess the opposite of Paul)which i like because during heavy snowfall i can push the block heater extension cord and the block heater cord under the hood and it gets protection from snow ice and rain...

did i mention i love the new Escape and i want it !!! 
very nice.

[fbov]

5 hours ago, ptjones said:

I agree with your assessment with the handling

The C-Max was a tremendous surprise; it handled more like a go-kart than a top-heavy SUV. The Escape is that top-heavy SUV. I blame geometry as much as Ford's desire to please their target audience (this isn't a "man's car," whatever that might mean). Weight higher on the same track width will always be less stable. Then there's the seats... very comfortable in a straight line, but the lack of lateral support is a real barrier to spirited driving. 

 

5 hours ago, ptjones said:

I'd raise them up to 44 psi

That would help, and it's in the plan, but... I'm still in the getting acquainted period. Haven't even tried the Eco driving mode (Normal is default). It's possible the lovely smooth ride will go away as handling improves. Better ride is as obvious as the poorer handling. I'll raise them eventually.

 

3 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

What Ecopias?

Per Tire Rack's spec sheet, there are three Ecopia tires in the 225/55R19 size. H-speed rating is available in a Japanese Ecopia H/L 422, and a domestic Ecopia H/L 422 that's OEM only on the 2020 Escape. The same is true for the 225/65-17, the base Escape tire size. Specs are slightly different, as you can see, below. The third tire is a domestic V-rated 51-psi version, but it's not an OEM. 

225/55R19

99H SL

600 A A

1,709 lbs

51 psi

10/32"

27 lbs

6-8"

7"

9.2"

7.2"

28.8"

724

JP

225/55R19

99H SL

700 A A

1,709 lbs

44 psi

/32"

25 lbs

6-8"

7"

7.2"

US

And none of these Ecopia fit a C-Max. That's the Ecopia 422, what TR calls a Grand Touring, not the Crossover/SUV Touring Ecopia H/L 422. 

4 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

I didn’t then feel as “safe” as I do now with ... virtually no mushiness

My idea of an "unsafe" tire is one that is perfectly linear, until it lets go with no warning. Think cantilever-sidewall racing slicks. Safe enough for trained race car drivers who know the traction limit and have practiced recovery (ever wonder why racers will saw the wheel back and forth?). 

 

A "safe" tire warns the driver with progressively ineffective steering response as cornering forces increase. As the driver increases speed in a turn, as on a freeway on-ramp, increased steering input is required to maintain a constant radius. Going into a turn too hot, that increased steering input provides significant braking force which reduces speed to safer levels. It took me years of autocrossing to learn to stop braking with the steering wheel, and steer with the throttle. 

 

2 hours ago, DarenHayes said:

... the displays are so futuristic and cool.

That's a double-edge sword. Analog gauges can tell you much more in a glance than any numeric display. Race cars are set up with gauges turned so "good" readings are all point up; a glance tells you if one's tilted. These displays must be read, requiring the same cognitive attention that's critical to avoiding collisions. There are analog markers in the circles around the numbers of the L/R displays, but they're very hard to see, and somewhat distracting; the speed display has a highlight that flashes in and out, annoying at night. 

 

Glad to hear there's light at the end of the block heater tunnel. I'm holding out for the proper factory routing the harness is design to provide. 

 

And in the FWIW department, I've seen no sign of EV+ but will keep an eye out as my home arrivals pile up. 

 

Having fun,

Frank

[C-MaxJaxon]

Here's a list of things I'm interesting in hearing a comparison to the C-Max or just general feedback. Maybe some of them have been answered elsewhere. Have fun plowing through the list, Frank. ?

 

1. How smooth the transition is going in and out of EV mode
2. NVH when the engine is running
3. Cabin noise at highway speeds
4. Seat belt height adjustability
5. How the front and read pillars affect visibility
6. Performance of the rain sensing wipers
7. Position of the start button
8. Seat comfort on longer drives
9. How quickly there's heat after a cold start
10. Noise and air movement with the climate control fan at full speed
11. The heated seat levels
12. The door lock and unlock touch sensord
13. Keypad entry
14. Sound quality of the stereo, including subwoofer capability
15. Headlight performance
16. Merging and passing power
17. How Eco, Sport, Slippery and Deep Snow/Sand driving modes affect throttle, steering or other things
18. Sound and feel when closing doors
19. The MPG summary screen when shutting off the engine
20. How quickly the steering wheel heats and how warm it gets
21. Arm rest position
22. Speed and feel of the shifter dial
23. Length, width and height in inches of the cargo area with the seats down
24. Opening the fuel filler door
25. New car smell
26. How long music will play with the car off
27. Remote start
28. If the engine starts when the HVB is too cold on a cold start
29. If the engine is forced on to give heat even in Eco mode
30. Adaptive cruise performance
31. The all weather floor mats if you have those
32. If the lug nuts have aluminum sleeves that can swell

Edited January 25, 2020 by C-MaxJaxon
Added #32

[fbov]

Long list so generic answers - you really need a test drive to answer these kinds of questions. I'm in no position to tell you if you'll like the seats, for example, and I'd need rain to assess wipers, snow or fog to assess headlights, and fuel to open the filler door (perhaps by March). Do you have Ford's Technical Specs (attached)?

Frank

1 hour ago, C-MaxJaxon said:

1. How smooth the transition is going in and out of EV mode - C-max
2. NVH when the engine is running - C-Max
3. Cabin noise at highway speeds - C-Max
4. Seat belt height adjustability - no idea
5. How the front and read pillars affect visibility - C-Max
6. Performance of the rain sensing wipers - no idea
7. Position of the start button - C-Max
8. Seat comfort on longer drives - no idea
9. How quickly there's heat after a cold start - depends on ambient temperature
10. Noise and air movement with the climate control fan at full speed - no idea
11. The heated seat levels - 3 levels, low is enough
12. The door lock and unlock touch sensor - C-Max
13. Keypad entry - no idea
14. Sound quality of the stereo, including subwoofer capability - yes there's a sub, but no car has good sound quality. 
15. Headlight performance - can't tell... need bad weather
16. Merging and passing power - C-Max
17. How Eco, Sport, Slippery and Deep Snow/Sand driving modes affect throttle, steering or other things - no idea
18. Sound and feel when closing doors - C-Max
19. The MPG summary screen when shutting off the engine - C-Max
20. How quickly the steering wheel heats and how warm it gets - fast, and too warm.
21. Arm rest position - restful???
22. Speed and feel of the shifter dial - it turns???
23. Length, width and height in inches of the cargo area with the seats down - no idea
24. Opening the fuel filler door - C-Max
25. New car smell - need to use your own nose
26. How long music will play with the car off - no idea
27. Remote start - no idea
28. If the engine starts when the HVB is too cold on a cold start - no idea
29. If the engine is forced on to give heat even in Eco mode - no idea
30. Adaptive cruise performance - no idea
31. The all weather floor mats if you have those - OEM are cheap; WeatherTech now offers floor liners, and so do I
32. If the lug nuts have aluminum sleeves that can swell - never had a lug nut problem doing biannual tire changes (snows). 

2020-Ford-Escape-Tech-Specs.pdf

[fbov]

First tank is done, and I’m finally getting some fair-weather driving opportunities, as well as heavy snow. I’m finding myself very pleased with the car! The handling I’d best describe as C-Max quick, but with a soft touch. I feel the road undulations, but not the cracks in the asphalt. I have to toss it into corners to feel the tires at all. If Car & Driver is right, there is a whole lot of grip here.

 

I was concerned about snow driving with these all-season tires, given OEM Ecopia’s poor ratings for winter use. But I’m now wondering if these domestic Ecopias might deserve a different rating? They seem to corner and brake reasonably well on snow, and combined with AWD, gives the Escape the occasional advantage in deep snow over the C-Max with snows. I’m naturally giving it gas on snowy curves. Braking has slipped a couple times, but regen braking won’t lose traction in snow. Not what I expected.

 

I’m sensing a similar warm-up routine to the C-Max:

• 30 sec. of mostly EV torque upon start-up, like 15 kW EV to 3 kW ICE. I haven’t floored it.
• A couple minutes of ICE run to warm up before it will EV the first time.
• Period when ICE runs for “heater setting,” not “normal operation,” so you can choose.
• Warmed up enough to hold cabin and coolant temperature for long EV runs.

I’m looking forward to Spring!

 

The car is very solid. No squeaks or creakiness over bumps. The cargo area underfloor has nooks and crannies for things like jumper cables and tow straps, and the foam spacers keep things from rattling. My only problem, day-to-day? There’s so much more space in back than the C-Max; cargo’s harder to fit tight. At the same time, I’d never give it up; the cargo capacity seems huge! Need to find the front cargo tie-downs and run bungee cords.

 

And thinking about visibility, I realized what was missing… the little window in the A-pillar! The visibility to the front quarters is much improved by the narrower pillar, and with the low hood line, there’s nothing in the way between them. The side mirrors work well only because of the BLISS sensors flashing warnings, and thankfully, you only see them if you look. The “perimeter alarm” isn’t much different from the C-Max reverse proximity alarms, except it’s a 360* display, and that’s not a bad thing. And you need that kind of thing with the small rear window.

 

Headlights were a concern, given I’m not fond of the trend to whiter lights. Since poor adjustment is the big issue, the good news is that the 2020 Escape headlights are among the easiest I’ve ever adjusted. The white button with the 6 mm hex key is easy to find on the black housing. The L/R headlights have a different pattern so you don’t need a helper to block one side. Very gentle pressure required to move ½ turn lower and I’m happy.

 

I guess my only real complaint: the rear view mirror is too low, it's hard to see under it. I do like the night-time performance of this auto-dimming mirror. 

 

Oh, and the first tank got 38.2 MPG on the display, 37.4 based on the pump. Remember, this one got a lot of idle run time while I was setting things up, it’s winter, etc. I'm really looking forward to Spring!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[SnowStorm]

6 hours ago, fbov said:

Oh, and the first tank got 38.2 MPG on the display, 37.4 based on the pump.

Checked the odometer yet?  Overall then, it sure sounds like its a great replacement for the C-Max.  I would like the greater ground clearance and cargo space.