Fuelly - Prius V -vs- C-Max

[FoutsNC]

Just looking through Fuelly today, I came across some very interesting data.  I have been a little bothered by the Media's use of Fuelly and other sites siting it as the end all for MPG discussions.  I am also bothered by the fact that the filtering of data is very minimal and the fact that there are clearly some C-Max's on there that are fake.  I can only assume that those entries would be from other make/model Hybrid owners or by other manufacturers.  Anyways, with that said, here are some interesting findings:

 

Since the earliest data for the C-Max was in October, the data from the October and November timeframes were very minimal.  I am only considering the entries that have an image of the C-Max in their profile.  At least I feel that these owners took a couple extra moments to put a pic there.  Those fake entries are mainly found without images. For example, look at the P.O.S. profile. Enough said.

 

There are currently 25 C-Max entries with images that have reported fill ups in December.  There are over 100 2012 Prius V's.  There are no 2013 Prius V's with images.

 

Here's the average of the first 25 or both models for December of 2012:

Prius V = 38.72

C-Max  = 39.84

 

And just for S&G's, I went on to try and help the Prius V beat the C-Max.  I averaged the first 50 and came out with....... 39.21.  Still short of the C-Max numbers.

 

With this said, there are some things to consider in these numbers.  Of course, we all know that we are heading into winter and Hybrids don't perform their best during this time.  Beyond that, the C-Max's are mostly still being broken in.  I would say that a good number of the new drivers are new to Hybrid technology, myself included.  The C-Max outperforms the V by a good measure.  The C-Max is much more comfortable. The C-Max weighs more and is most likely better rated in the IIHS testing (To be seen).  The C-Max also uses Li-Ion battery packs, which have major environmental advantages over the Ni-MH packs in the Prius.  The C-Max is new off the line and is a new product for Ford.  I am sure with some tweaking, the MPG's can be much better.  The Prius has a loyal following and many "hypermilers" that have tweaked them to get the best MPG possible.  If you look through the Fuelly entries, you will see all the additions in many of the profiles (battery packs, foam inserts, etc...).  As C-Max owners, we are still trying to figure out these little things.  There will also be many more buyers of the C-Max that don't have MPG as their main concern.  It's a great alternative to the Focus, Fusion (non-hybrid and hybrid), Fiesta, and even the Escape.  I was one of those buyers.  By the way, it's built in the U.S.A. and not one of them will be made in in Changchun, Jilin, China! 

 

Now, don't get me wrong here... I still think the 47/47/47 EPA ratings are going to be extremely difficult (even for the best drivers) to maintain with the current C-Max setup.  I think the FMC Engineers need to brainstorm a bit more and make some changes to the programming. I am not a hypermiler by any means at all, as you can see with my current MPG.  Before this last Friday, P&G meant PUNCH and GO!  After doing a little browsing, I have picked up a couple of techniques from some hypermilers out there.  I am guessing that my next fuel up will be in the lower mid-40s from what I have been getting over the weekend.  This is without changing anything in the car, except for the way I am driving (and a little compensation for some oversights from Ford engineering).  If it does continue to work out, I will share the strategies on this forum. 

 

I hope this information helps to keep the MPG rants under control a little.  We need to understand that there is a large audience out there that wants to see this car FAIL!  The hype is helping them out and Ford's responses have been horrible, to be completely honest.  I love this car and I think it has a ton of potential.  If Ford wants this to take a large chunk out of the Hybrid market, they need to pull their heads out of the sand (or whereever they are) and start talking to the owners and making some tweaks and hitting the competition head on.

 

P.S. - If you are from FMC, I am always available to talk ;)

Edited December 31, 2012 by FoutsNC

[From Speed6ing 2 C-Maxing]

Hey! I'm one of those c-max owners that doesn't have a picture up, as I just haven't had the time... But i guess my numbers would bring the average down. I WILL say that this tank is starting out much better than my previous tanks, even with the dropping temps. There has been frost the last couple days. I had a couple trips this tank with mileage numbers north of 47mpg over 7-10 miles of city driving...

Edited December 31, 2012 by From Speed6ing 2 C-Maxing

[FoutsNC]

Yea, I didn't do that to purposely exclude anyone, yet I did disclose the fact.  There are several sub-30 entries without an image and I found that using the pic would just be an easier way to differentiate between the ones that are true and the ones that are fake or just have one entry.  With the C-Max being so new, and with so few entries on Fuelly, I found this to be the best measure.  If Fuelly made it easier to go through the information, I would gladly plot it out further.  The only way that I was able to do this was to go into each and every entry and pull the milage for December.  Once I started getting into the non-image entries, I started finding some obvious fakes that needed to be excluded.  There are some legit mid-30s, but mid-20s seem to be a little more hard to believe for me.

[FoutsNC]

For futher disclosure, I added in willspeed6 35.6 December MPG and here's the results:

 

First 26 entries

C-Max - 39.67

Prius V - 38.58

 

Even using the first 25 results from the Prius V (since entry 26 is 35.1 MPG), the C-Max comes extremely close.

[Boys fan]

Since my primary motivation for purchasing the Ford C-Max was MPG's I do not share your enthusiasm as I do not see any way this car will reach the rated MPGs listed of 47/47/47. Since purchasing on October 30 I have put over 4K miles on the vehicle and have been extremely dissappointed with my observed MPG's. So much so that I have taken the vehicle in for service asking the service advisor if any software updates have been sent by Ford; I was advised there have not been any received. With that said I do believe the vehicle is superior to he Prius V in many areas. I thought the Federal government solved auto manufacturers from fudging on their MPG ratings with the revisions to the CAFE standards established a few years back. Yet, with the recent class action lawsuits against KIA and Hyundai for false representing published MPG's, maybe not.

 

I am sure you are familiar with the government sight which provides real time data from car owners for MPG's (www.fueleconomy.gov). I have found the sight to be very useful when making buying decisions and identifying the accuracy of the vehicle MPG rating by the manufacturer. unfortunately, there were not enough recorded C-Max's at the time of purchase so I was going on blind faith. This link is a direct link to the C-Max recorded information: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Ford&model=C-MAX%20Hybrid%20FWD.

 

You mention driving tips that have led to improved mileage; any chance you have those links handy? Thank you again.

[FoutsNC]

Sorry to hear you are not happy with your MPG performance so far.  The MPGs will be lower during the winter months with a Hybrid, no matter who builds it.   The Dallas area has had some cold weather this month.  With an average monthly high of 58 and low of 38, I would expect your averages to be in the high 30s, possibly low 40s.  I am not here to convince anyone, yet I feel that my MPGs have been pretty good so far and I am getting into the high 30s overall with my current tank.  I do feel that Ford can tweak their programming to add some more MPGs pretty easily though (5-10 more with very little change).  The EPAs site has an average that almost matches up with Fuelly at this point.  Similar Hybrids are getting similar MPGs per month.  I personally feel that the EPA rating should be closer to the Prius V's 44/40/42 rating.  I doubt that Ford "fudged" the numbers.  I just think they may have tweaked the programming to meet the EPA tests, much like a bodybuilder oils down and pumps up prior to a show.

 

The most informational site I have found so far is http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/  They go into things beyond just saying a strategy, they actually put them to the test.  The site itself was created and is run by a highly respected hypermiler.  Even he has had difficulty with the C-Max's numbers, yet he believes that it can do much better in real world driving with some tweaks.  He is working with Ford and has some extended testing and trials setup for January.  I wouldn't be suprised to see some changes come out after that time.

[darrelld]

Since my primary motivation for purchasing the Ford C-Max was MPG's I do not share your enthusiasm as I do not see any way this car will reach the rated MPGs listed of 47/47/47. Since purchasing on October 30 I have put over 4K miles on the vehicle and have been extremely dissappointed with my observed MPG's. So much so that I have taken the vehicle in for service asking the service advisor if any software updates have been sent by Ford; I was advised there have not been any received. With that said I do believe the vehicle is superior to he Prius V in many areas. I thought the Federal government solved auto manufacturers from fudging on their MPG ratings with the revisions to the CAFE standards established a few years back. Yet, with the recent class action lawsuits against KIA and Hyundai for false representing published MPG's, maybe not.

 

I am sure you are familiar with the government sight which provides real time data from car owners for MPG's (www.fueleconomy.gov). I have found the sight to be very useful when making buying decisions and identifying the accuracy of the vehicle MPG rating by the manufacturer. unfortunately, there were not enough recorded C-Max's at the time of purchase so I was going on blind faith. This link is a direct link to the C-Max recorded information: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList2&make=Ford&model=C-MAX Hybrid FWD.

 

You mention driving tips that have led to improved mileage; any chance you have those links handy? Thank you again.

The fueleconomy.gov site depends upon data submitted by owners. I am one of the data reports listed there and they don't verify authenticity. It is essentially no different than Fuelly except some may fear reporting false info on a government site. Edited January 1, 2013 by darrelld

[RedLdr1]

I am sure you are familiar with the government sight which provides real time data from car owners for MPG's (www.fueleconomy.gov). I have found the sight to be very useful when making buying decisions and identifying the accuracy of the vehicle MPG rating by the manufacturer. unfortunately, there were not enough recorded C-Max's at the time of purchase so I was going on blind faith.

 

You are going on "blind faith" if you trust any of the self reported info on any website.  I can have my C-Max meet, or easily beat, the 47/47/47 MPG ratings with just a few minutes of keyboard time on Fuelly, Fueleconomy.gov, Green Hybrid or any self reporting website.  Self reported data is always suspicious at best as you don't know the sources motivations...or their reliability.

 

FoutsNC,

 

That was a good way to "thin the herd" using pictures as a selection parameter.  Not perfect, but far better than just accepting all the data.

[darrelld]

You mention driving tips that have led to improved mileage; any chance you have those links handy? Thank you again.

 

This video demonstrates some techniques you may find helpful.

 

[RedLdr1]

Another way to look at Fuelly data, without selecting who to use, is to just look for the "bell curve" in the data.  Fuelly currently has 58 C-Maxs reporting, of those the majority, 32 cars or 55%, are reporting between 36MPG and 41MPG.  The MPG Average of those 32 cars is 38.5MPG...  Not too far off from the 39.67MPG selecting the users generated...  That is still using self reported data, but it gets rid of the outliers....on both ends.

 

Screen Shot of Fuelly 2013 C-Max Average MPG Reports as of 20:19 31 December 31, 2012

 

 

 

[FoutsNC]

Another good way to look at it.  I was just trying to get December data from both cars though. 38.5 isn't too far off at all though.  I truly think the real world average annual numbers are going to be around the 44/40/42 numbers of the Prius V with the current setup.  That's still amazing milage overall.  I purchased a 2013 2.0 Ecoboost Escape at the same time for my wife.  My wife's overall milage right now is 22.1 MPG, and she has a really light foot.  The insides of both vehicles are VERY similar.  The C-Max's ride is much more refined, yet the Escape has a little more trunk room.  She almost regrets getting the Escape instead of another C-Max, especially since we paid $6,000 more for her car!

[MikeB]

One set of data that should be excluded, even though it's legitimate, is numbers from Energi drivers. Until there's a good way to count the power from plugging in, those vehicles will just skew your curve. But looking at the bell curve seems like the best path, just look at the peak of the bell and use that value.

 

[FoutsNC]

In my numbers, I did exclude the high numbers that are probably from the Energi drivers that haven't created one under the Energi section.  I also excluded a couple of 80+ MPG Prius V's that probably have battery packs or something added on.  I did not exclude many of the 50+ MPG Prius V's though.  I just feel that the Prius programming allows for much better hypermiling.  It also helps that users have been playing with it for quite some time to find the sweet spots on the Prius.

[Boys fan]

All, your feedback is very much appreciated. I will be leveraging the tips and tricks to improve my C-Max MPG's. I also want to make sure that when miles per gallon is referenced it is actual at the pump not what is provided by the on board computer; as I have found my computer to be off by as much as 2 MPG less.

 

Lastly, I do believe a 7 to 8 mile reduction in average fuel economy is significant (15-20 percent). Those that are reporting over 50 MPG's I find very hard to believe. The comment made by FOUTSNC above is, in my opinion, dead on; I truly think the real world average annual numbers are going to be around 44/40/42 of the Prius V with the current setup.

 

Thank you again.

[CNCGeek]

FoutsNC, your statement about a "large audience out there that wants to see this car FAIL!" gives me the impression you are biased :)

[FoutsNC]

Call it bias or just an observation... Either way, the numbers are what they are.  To be honest, I did not think that the C-Max was gonig to come out as good as it did due to my own MPGs. 

[CNCGeek]

Call it bias or just an observation... Either way, the numbers are what they are.  To be honest, I did not think that the C-Max was gonig to come out as good as it did due to my own MPGs. 

I agree the numbers are what they are, but only if they are left unfiltered.  I think we have to give some more time for more c-max owners to post at Fuelly to make a soild conclusion on real world average fuel economy.  Hopefully the more data, the more any incorrect or outright bogus data points will be diluted. 

 

You will probably see your fuel economy go up as you drive it differently, and temperatures go up - gotta give up the lead foot for sure if you want to optimize mpgs - good luck :)

Edited January 2, 2013 by CNCGeek

[Jus-A-CMax]

FoutsNC, your statement about a "large audience out there that wants to see this car FAIL!" gives me the impression you are biased :)

 

I think FoutsNC is calling it right, my impression is that the TONS of Prius owning posters out there want this car to just plain fail. The war has begun... :runaway:

 

On the flipside, this car needs time and mileage before it really begins to open up. Personally, I am seeing slowly improving MPGs as well but golly-gosh, this car has made see the roads differently now - flat is no longer flat and watching the falling Fs in the outside temperature gauge and cringing at the low MPGs that is coming at the end of the trip.

 

Speaking of which - here is an interesting testing (sorry if this link has been posted before) from the same folks at MPG-O-Matic: http://www.mpgomatic.com/2012/12/13/2013-ford-c-max-hybrid-gas-mileage-testing-notes/

 

He's about the best and most practical reviews I am seeing so far for the CMax.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Jus-A-CMax

[darrelld]

I think FoutsNC is calling it right, my impression is that the TONS of Prius owning posters out there want this car to just plain fail. The war has begun... :runaway:

 

On the flipside, this car needs time and mileage before it really begins to open up. Personally, I am seeing slowly improving MPGs as well but golly-gosh, this car has made see the roads differently now - flat is no longer flat and watching the falling Fs in the outside temperature gauge and cringing at the low MPGs that is coming at the end of the trip.

 

Speaking of which - here is an interesting testing (sorry if this link has been posted before) from the same folks at MPG-O-Matic: http://www.mpgomatic.com/2012/12/13/2013-ford-c-max-hybrid-gas-mileage-testing-notes/

 

He's about the best and most practical reviews I am seeing so far for the CMax.

Last month when C-Max sales figures beat Prius V there was an uptick in media attention and influx of posters here questioning the EPA mileage results. Coincidence?

 

Former and current Prius owners also seem generate more complaints on C-Max mpg? Might make an interesting poll.

Edited January 2, 2013 by darrelld

[Jus-A-CMax]

darrelld - this all smells like politics in washington dude. Funny how that translate to the car speak world as well. if you follow some other forums, they are now saying Ford has no right to compare to the V, whatever, its just a freaking ad. It doesn't matter, anyone who has 1/2 brain and test drive a Prius and then test drive a V knows which car is superior in terms of handling, steering feel, seating and more FUN with better MPGs.

[darrelld]

darrelld - this all smells like politics in washington dude. Funny how that translate to the car speak world as well. if you follow some other forums, they are now saying Ford has no right to compare to the V, whatever, its just a freaking ad. It doesn't matter, anyone who has 1/2 brain and test drive a Prius and then test drive a V knows which car is superior in terms of handling, steering feel, seating and more FUN with better MPGs.

 

I don't choose one trick pony cars.

 

My criteria is;

 

a. Handling

b. Performance

c. Ride compliance

d. Safety

d. Tech options

e. Sound System

 

Best mpg with the combination of a + b + c and the C-Max fit better than anything on the market I could find for the price.

Edited January 2, 2013 by darrelld

[plus 3 golfer]

I don't choose one trick pony cars.

 

My criteria is;

 

a. Handling

b. Performance

c. Ride compliance

d. Safety

d. Tech options

e. Sound System

 

Best mpg with the combination of a + b + c and the C-Max fit better than anything on the market I could find for the price.

Couldn't have said it better.  

 

If I didn't care about a, b, and c, I'd likely have bought a Prius.  I test drove the Prius prior to buying the C-Max and again just like 4 years ago when I bought my Jetta TDI, the Prius is still woefully lacking in a, b, and c.  I was also well aware of the hullabaloo surrounding the fuel economy of the C-Max prior to my purchase.  I couldn't be more pleased with my C-Max.

 

As far as my FE goes, I decided to fillup early since I didn't know whether the dealer topped off the tank when I purchased it at 31 miles or not .  So, excluding the 31 miles I got 38.2 mpg on 7.234 gallons of fuel (which is what I reported to fuelly to be conservative).  If I include the 31 miles, my fuel economy jumps to 42.8 mpg.  Factoring in the cost difference of diesel fuel ($3.779) vs. gas ($2.959), my Jetta TDI would have needed to get 49.2 mpg to be equivalent in fuel costs to my C-Max.  My lifetime average on my Jetta was 42.0 mpg.

 

To repeat: "the C-Max fit better than anything on the market I could find for the price" and I expect my FE to increase.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

I just completed a 43.6mi trip temps from 39-45deg.F,very hilly, 55mph, slight tail wind and 300ft drop in elevation and I got 53.6mpg, 28mi EV (64%) 3.9mi regen, .8gal and brake s. 99%. BTW that was with grill covers on and WT temps 195-205deg.

At 70deg. I should be getting 60mpg. Pretty good don't you think!

[robodog61]

After 1000 miles, I get about 41 MPG lifetime.  With the colder weather, that is about as high as I can get.  I think I will try to block off some radiator vents in the front grille.

 

I noticed that Trip 2 odometer keeps the miles and the gas used for that trip odometer.  I think it would be need to see how many gallons of gas I use over a long time - I never thought I would have that data  I had used this trip 2 odometer on other cars to keep track of how many miles on the oil change, but if I just do it every 10,000 miles it should be easy to track.

[valkraider]

I don't want a Prius. So people can talk all they want. I had a decade to buy a Prius and didn't bite....

 

Now the first all electric VW hits the states and it's gonna meet my driveway toot sweet.