EPA to test C-Max hybrid on mpg claims

[darrelld]

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130114/AUTO04/301140402

 

I welcome the test and the doubters will have to pick another topic.

[valkraider]

I've read that before and this paragraph always cracks me up:

 

At 60 mph, the speed is approximately 10 mph below most highway speed limits in Metro Detroit (and most Midwestern cities), but is more indicative of the often-gridlocked and much slower highways in California.

I have been stuck in plenty of Gridlock in the Midwest. I have been in parking lit conditions on freeways in Detroit, Toronto, Minneapolis, and Chicago. As well as places like Atlanta, DC, Houston, Memphis, Dallas, St. Louis and Orlando too... Cities all have gridlock. However California freeways move really fast a lot of the time, I have been passed while cruising at crazy speeds in Southern California...

 

I think that the comparison is more rural freeway vs urban surface streets. Because freeways in cities have congestion but a freeway in the middle if nowhere will have those high speed fuel sucking long stretches...

[CNCGeek]

I think that the comparison is more rural freeway vs urban surface streets. Because freeways in cities have congestion but a freeway in the middle if nowhere will have those high speed fuel sucking long stretches...

I agree - the article also noted:

 

"But for drivers in Middle America who regularly drive faster than 62 mph, the benefits of a hybrid vehicle are diminished."

 

I tend to take surface streets when I can, but the freeway is just too good to pass up sometimes - hybrids sort of flip the conventional wisdom about fuel economy on it's head when it comes to city/hwy mpg.

[CNCGeek]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130114/AUTO04/301140402

 

I welcome the test and the doubters will have to pick another topic.

Regarding "the doubters", it seems perfectly normal when things don't add up, which they don't for many people (I am not saying there are not perfectly sound reasons for it not adding up).  When somebody buys a hybrid (with prior experience driving a normal car), they don't stop driving the way they always have, so they are probably disappointed.  Manufacturers don't seem to emphasize the difference to consumers - aside from the fuel economy benefits, so that adds to the disappointment of poorer than expected fuel economy - and doubt.  Ford's brake coach and other "coaches" help, but they can't help with the weight of the vehicle, horsepower, temperatures, geography, roads, and speed limits.  Going up against the Prius V (which is lighter with a slightly better CD) also does not help when people doubt the EPA number on the C-max.  Objectively the doubters are likely correct, it is where the "blame" lies which is probably the more relevant question.

 

Myself, I don't doubt the EPA number from Ford as much as the EPA testing itself.  Unfortunately Ford could not get the EPA to take another look at their testing protocol for Hybrids.  IMO, having the EPA test the C-max is a good thing however since it will erase any suspicions about Ford's test.  I'd suspect that Ford may even want the EPA to test it, due to the gap between the rated 47mpg and the numbers being posted in reviews and at Fuelly.  And if there is any difference in the results, it would be better to get it out of the way sooner than later.

[darrelld]

Regarding "the doubters", it seems perfectly normal when things don't add up, which they don't for many people (I am not saying there are not perfectly sound reasons for it not adding up).  When somebody buys a hybrid (with prior experience driving a normal car), they don't stop driving the way they always have, so they are probably disappointed.  Manufacturers don't seem to emphasize the difference to consumers - aside from the fuel economy benefits, so that adds to the disappointment of poorer than expected fuel economy - and doubt.  Ford's brake coach and other "coaches" help, but they can't help with the weight of the vehicle, horsepower, temperatures, geography, roads, and speed limits.  Going up against the Prius V (which is lighter with a slightly better CD) also does not help when people doubt the EPA number on the C-max.  Objectively the doubters are likely correct, it is where the "blame" lies which is probably the more relevant question.

 

Myself, I don't doubt the EPA number from Ford as much as the EPA testing itself.  Unfortunately Ford could not get the EPA to take another look at their testing protocol for Hybrids.  IMO, having the EPA test the C-max is a good thing however since it will erase any suspicions about Ford's test.  I'd suspect that Ford may even want the EPA to test it, due to the gap between the rated 47mpg and the numbers being posted in reviews and at Fuelly.  And if there is any difference in the results, it would be better to get it out of the way sooner than later.

 

 

When you see results like this without the media frenzy Ford has endured, I have come to a different conclusion.

Ford has mounted a credible challenge to the old guard and they are worried, fanboys will follow in defense.

 

Edited January 17, 2013 by darrelld

[ptjones]

I'm disappointed that FORD didn't take the mileage negative press and turn it into a positive by selling a Winter MPG kit for those concerned about MPG's.

 

1. It would include a DVD on how to drive your CMAX to get good gas mileage.

 

2. Grill Cover set with instructions on how to use. Also have Smart Gauge Alert driver to change or remove covers as necessary.

 

3. Make WT gauge in MyView included digital read out too, so you accurately monitor WT.

 

4. Oil pan heater to speedup ICE warming up.

 

5. Make charger unit in engine compartment to plug in to household electricity, so EV Battery is fully charged when you start out.

 

I believe this could help the worst MPG owners by up to 10MPG!

 

I wonder if FORD people actually monitor this forum? :)

Edited January 18, 2013 by ptjones

[Jus-A-CMax]

Great ideas. However, imo, Ford will need a lot more time to test any grill covers if they were to distribute it and in all sorts of temperature including high 100s so see the impact. Right now, those temps don't exist here in the US and you know some bumblehead will keep the covers on at the peak of summer temps and then likely to overheat something and you have another lawsuit. Yes, the posters here are smarter and will take off those covers in the summer heat.

 

I think the big mistake here is the 62mph EV limit. Had they made this 65 or 68 with a slightly larger battery, it could have been a different story. We all hoon here in SoCal except lil ole me on the right hand lane.

[Generalbeluga]

I'm disappointed that FORD didn't take the mileage negative press and turn it into a positive by selling a Winter MPG kit for those concerned about MPG's.

 

1. It would include a DVD on how to drive your CMAX to get good gas mileage.

 

2. Grill Cover set with instructions on how to use.

 

3. Make  WT gauge in MyView included digital read out too, so you accurately monitor WT.

 

4. Oil pan heater to speedup ICE warming up.

 

5. Make charger unit in engine compartment to plug in to household electricity, so EV Battery is fully charged when you start out.

 

I believe this could help the worst MPG owners by up to 10MPG! 

 

I wonder if FORD people actually monitor this forum? :)    

 

 

The above are all great ideas but, yesterday I asked this forum why Ford used incandescent bulbs over today's LED technology in the C Max's exterior lighting, and the answer was COST!  I can't imagine Ford adopting any of your good fuel saving ideas if they can't see any cost advantage of using LEDs, can you?  

[valkraider]

After they see how these things sell and they start making some money, they will start adding things and options.

 

 

I am still leery of the grill covers. If it was truly that easy to add 2 to 6 mpg, every car company would build them in to every model made. I mean for the price of a piece of plastic getting 2 to 6 mpg gain is great considering they have sunk billions into things like low rolling resistance tires, direct fuel injection, waste heat recovery, start-stop, hybrid systems and transmissions, etc etc...

[MikeB]

I have to agree with Valkraider on this, they spend gazillions of dollars on research for efficiency, Ford almost certainly has a real wind tunnel in addition to supercomputers to measure cd. And if you look at our current front grill, most of it is already blocked off, with purely cosmetic chrome slats going across most of it. If the engineers could safely eliminate the grill entirely, they probably would have.

 

I appreciate that ptjones is carefully watching engine water temps, but I might be driving at 70mph for 10 miles purely in EV mode, and I don't want my high voltage electronics overheating while the engine remains off. Replacing a high voltage converter can't be a cheap repair, and blocking airflow with a grill cover is certainly going to invoke some questions about the warranty coverage.

[zhackwyatt]

After they see how these things sell and they start making some money, they will start adding things and options.

 

 

I am still leery of the grill covers. If it was truly that easy to add 2 to 6 mpg, every car company would build them in to every model made. I mean for the price of a piece of plastic getting 2 to 6 mpg gain is great considering they have sunk billions into things like low rolling resistance tires, direct fuel injection, waste heat recovery, start-stop, hybrid systems and transmissions, etc etc...

Looking at pictures of the volt (I haven't inspected one up close in person) it almost looks like that grill was designed w/ built-in grill covers.

Edited January 18, 2013 by zhackwyatt

[ptjones]

Great ideas. However, imo, Ford will need a lot more time to test any grill covers if they were to distribute it and in all sorts of temperature including high 100s so see the impact. Right now, those temps don't exist here in the US and you know some bumblehead will keep the covers on at the peak of summer temps and then likely to overheat something and you have another lawsuit. Yes, the posters here are smarter and will take off those covers in the summer heat.

 

I think the big mistake here is the 62mph EV limit. Had they made this 65 or 68 with a slightly larger battery, it could have been a different story. We all hoon here in SoCal except lil ole me on the right hand lane.

MikeB Do you have a ScanGauge?   We need to come up with good questions to ask Service mgr concerning Inverter coolant max temps.Is there an output from OBDII interace for Inverter?

BTW FORD doesn't need to test Grill Covers , all they need to do is have an Alert message on Smart Gauge telling driver to change or remove Grill covers. Simple

 

All cars mass produced are compromises, We couldn't afford the best. FORD made the best CMAX they could  for $26k. The CMAX platform is 5years old and not as aerodynamic as Fusion.

We are just trying to see where FORD made compromises that we can improve on. I noticed people are having problems with fouled spark plugs, Grill Covers might have kept that from happening because of shorter heat up time.

Another benefit according to one cover owner is it keeps snow from getting in grill opening. We will keep looking for info on Hybrid system.

[F8L]

Ford already has the technology for automated grille shutters. They use them on the Ford Focus. Chevy has them for the Cruze and Dodge has them for the Ram pickup. There are a few other brands using them as well.

[MikeB]

Nope, don't have a ScanGauge. But the info is probably in there somewhere, if we just knew the code to look for.

[valkraider]

CMax has automated grill shutters.

[ptjones]

Nope, don't have a ScanGauge. But the info is probably in there somewhere, if we just knew the code to look for.

I'm going to Allan Vigil FORD to talk to them hosting a CMAX meeting and talk to Hybrid mechanics to see if they have answers to our questions.  

[Tree63]

CMax has automated grill shutters.

 

I have tried to find info on how the automated grill shutters but no luck. 

 

It would be good to understand what triggers the open/close (partial close?).  Is it only engine temp or a combination of speed/headwind/etc?  I wonder if CMax has ones identical to Fusion.

[Maximus]

MikeB Do you have a ScanGauge?   The CMAX platform is 5years old and not as aerodynamic as Fusion..

 

 

The 2013 C-Max is on a new platform, the C344 platform. This is the Global C platform which also underpins the current, 3rd generation Focus and new Escape. The hybrid system is also new for 2013.

[ptjones]

I videoed the shutters and they work off WT starting at 190deg.F in 1/4 steps to fully open at 213deg.F. The shutters appear to be  the same as Fusion hybrid.

 

I'm going to Allan Vigil FORD to talk to them hosting a CMAX meeting and talk to Hybrid mechanics to see if they have answers to our questions.  

 

Allen Vigil FORD said that their conference room is busy on Saturdays so no luck there.  But I may have hit pay dirt at Gene Evans Ford  service mgr. he would try to get answer on coolant temp for inverter and if there is a readout from ICE computer plug.  He was going to see if an actual Ford tech could call me. Hope for the best.

BTW I put my hand on Inverter coolant lines today after my trip and they were cold with covers on. 

[ptjones]

The 2013 C-Max is on a new platform, the C344 platform. This is the Global C platform which also underpins the current, 3rd generation Focus and new Escape. The hybrid system is also new for 2013.

The body doesn't appeared to have changed aerodynamically.

[CNCGeek]

When you see results like this without the media frenzy Ford has endured, I have come to a different conclusion.

Ford has mounted a credible challenge to the old guard and they are worried, fanboys will follow in defense.

 

The argument that graphic is making has confused me - is it saying that the CR data is reliable, but "hey we did better than the Prius" or the data is ridiculous since "look how badly the Prius did in comparison"?  Either way it smells like something put together by marketing folks so my BS radar was already engaged - and it does nothing to support the EPA ratings for the C-max, which is what I feel this discussion is about.  What seems more important to me (more than the CR data) is the Fuelly data and other real world mpg numbers, along with the information posted here regarding how sensitive the C-max is to temps, vehicle setup, and driving conditions.  I agree that "fanboys" can ruin any discussion, but they seem to precipitate out on both sides of any issue where people feel they have hitched up to something bigger than themselves - they end up being background noise and I don't think they are moving this issue.

[darrelld]

The argument that graphic is making has confused me - is it saying that the CR data is reliable, but "hey we did better than the Prius" or the data is ridiculous since "look how badly the Prius did in comparison"?  Either way it smells like something put together by marketing folks so my BS radar was already engaged - and it does nothing to support the EPA ratings for the C-max, which is what I feel this discussion is about.  What seems more important to me (more than the CR data) is the Fuelly data and other real world mpg numbers, along with the information posted here regarding how sensitive the C-max is to temps, vehicle setup, and driving conditions.  I agree that "fanboys" can ruin any discussion, but they seem to precipitate out on both sides of any issue where people feel they have hitched up to something bigger than themselves - they end up being background noise and I don't think they are moving this issue.

 

You can read the whole story here;

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/12/cmax-20121215.html

 

Fuelly data is important but I can manipulate the numbers anyway I want with a computer and keyboad. There are company's in China that for a fee will write a large number of reviews (good or bad) for any product you decide. A coworker did this to leverage an online company to replace a defective item he purchased.

The EPA test is done in a lab and though flawed is the best source of comparison available.

 

My issue with Consumer Reports is they clearly tested the Prius and achieved the worst city delta vs EPA of any hybrid made and said nothing to the media. You have to dig through their reviews to find this information. Hybrids do best and are usually purchased for their city mpg and the poor performance of the Prius should have been a bigger story. Fan boys also manipulate data, look at the person here with the Venza claiming to have averaged 32 mpg, this is clearly impossible to achieve.

Edited January 20, 2013 by darrelld

[valkraider]

Yeah, the problem isn't the delta itself.

 

It's all the people claiming that the Prius beat EPA numbers all the time while the C-Max does not.

 

Personally, I don't care about the pissing match. If people like a Prius, buy a Prius. Don't go on a C-Max forum and talk trash.

 

What bothers me is misinformation or lies.

 

There have been plenty of people with plenty of sources and lots of data which shows:

 

1. Almost all cars fall short of EPA numbers in real world - mainly because real world driving is not the same as the EPA tests.

 

2. EPA numbers are possible in any vehicle - but by no means guaranteed.

 

3. All vehicles perform worse in winter months - for a long list of reasons - too long to mention here. But evidence is showing the CMax has a large drop in cold temps. Meanwhile moderate temps enable fantastic numbers.

 

4. The C-Max has a higher range of variability than some other cars - both good and bad. It can go faster and is nicer to drive at the cost of lower fuel economy. But people are figuring out how to drive it and get amazing numbers.

Edited January 20, 2013 by valkraider

[J**2]

So what kind of millage can you expect from the Energi if you put it in auto mode and drive at 55 like an old fart with econo cruise ??

[valkraider]

Well, you can run in full electric mode up to 20 miles, and cruising on level ground at 55 with no climate control you should easily be able to hit 20. Hills or using the heater reduce that down.

 

Outside of the electric mode, the Energi is rated at 41 highway. My experience has been just over that in conditions you describe, however my engine is not broken in (I only have 400 miles of gasoline powered travel). My seat of the pants estimate combined with a back of the napkin calculation, I would bet that without too much difficulty maintaining 40mpg at 55mph will not be a problem at all, and I think probably a couple mpg low.

 

The key is that the C-Max and the Energi model especially are really at their best in stop&go city environments.

 

If your primary driving situation is long highway cruises at 55mph I would highly suggest looking into a Volkswagen or Audi TDI. I could routinely break 50mpg in my 2003 when cruising at 55 or less. In my 2009 I could cruise at 55 with an economy of 45mpg (the 2009 is a different engine which loses some efficiency due to much cleaner emissions). Those VW and Audi TDI are simply the best highway vehicles on the market.

 

However, in the city I would only get about 25mpg. Diesels take a long time to warm up, and don't do well idling in traffic. Since almost 100% of our daily use is in stop&go urban areas the C-Max makes much more sense for us.