Buying a 2013 C-MAX SEL (110k miles) in 2021

[Nervous but Excited]

I have spent a lot of time trying to understand whether purchasing a 2013 C-MAX is a bad idea.
It seems as tough people either love their car or hate it.
So my question in basically: how can I improve the probability that I buy a car which I end up loving rather than hating?
My greatest fears are around the transmission and the hybrid battery. Are there ways to test the battery and transmission to try glimpse the future? Are there other major issues to be considering? 

I am currently looking at buying a car from a private owner (not a dealership). The owner seems to love his car and has taken great care of it.

For what it's worth, this is the car that I looked at: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/904277673827044/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

And I am also considering this one: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1130174711054497/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

 

Any insights would be much appreciated. I am hoping to make a decision within the next week.

 

Happy Days!

[Lacienega]

We have a 2014 SEL with 120k miles, and so far very trouble free. Only replaced tires once and 12v battery.

[Nervous but Excited]

?! 120k miles on one set of tires ?!

 

From what I have heard the 2013 is known to be a bit of a problem child. Do you think that is accurate?

 

[cr08]

First thing at that mileage would be to check with the owner to see if they've had transmission work done. The average mileage where problems start to crop up seems to be between 80 and 100k miles.

 

Looks like both of the vehicles you've linked are hybrid models and not the Energi's. These usually don't have battery longevity issues compared to the Energi as they aren't stressed as much. There's also no way to really check battery capacity with them either.

 

So ultimately the transmission's going to be the big thing. 12v battery issues are another potential one, though this is going to be much less of a pain to deal with than the transmission and isn't an absolute. It's just a toss of the dice and also kinda depends on if the owner's done any work to correct it already. There were many software updates made to various modules over the years to correct 12v battery drain issues. You can ask the owner if they've had any issues needing jump started regularly and if any diagnoses or dealership work has been done to fix that.

 

That all said, just checking KBB and private party puts $9k at the very top end of the 'Excellent' condition scale for those two so take that as you will.

 

As an FYI: A transmission replacement is going to run you between $3000 and $5000 on average. If it was me buying: A 2013 with that high of mileage and no transmission work, I'd seriously haggle down the price given the potential repair work down the road.

 

Talking $13-$14k all in worst case scenario with a transmission replacement, you should be able to find a (late) 2015 or newer easy and those don't have the same transmission issues. Late 2015 builds and newer are trouble free. As an example, for a 2016 hybrid SEL with a conservative 80k miles in Very Good condition they're showing $12k-$14k at the high end. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by cr08

[Billyk24]

There's also no way to really check battery capacity with them either.--not an accurate statement.  The Professor (Raj) of the Energi version always stated the capacity can be checked by filling the HVB up, driving in EV now mode only and when it "runs out", you stop and check for the kWh capacity used.    Energi models owned in the warm states, those driven by owners bragging about high mpg are likely to have a significantly degraded capacity due to the Energi's inept thermal regulatory system.  Of course, this does not apply to just the Hybrid version. 

[Lacienega]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:14 AM, Nervous but Excited said:

?! 120k miles on one set of tires ?!

 

From what I have heard the 2013 is known to be a bit of a problem child. Do you think that is accurate?

 

I had to change the tires around 90k. The 12v battery was 7 years old.

[fbov]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:58 PM, Billyk24 said:

There's also no way to really check battery capacity with them either.--not an accurate statement. ... driving in EV now mode

It is an accurate statement when you don't have an EV Now mode. It's an Energi feature. You can't check the hybrid battery, but you don't need to. It's not subject to an abusive charging mode; Li-ion HVB's don't like it when you keep the "tank" full. 

- Hybrid battery is a buffer, so it spends most of it's time in the 50% +/-20% charge range. 

- It's only fully charged at the bottom of looong hills, which tend to be mid-trip, so short dwell time. 

- we have had many forum members drive into the 250K mile range with no loss of mileage, or issues with their rebuilt transmissions. 

 

The concern is the transmission, not the Hybrid HVB. It's why I drive an Escape Hybrid these days. Ironically, Energi didn't show the transmission issue, due to an additional oil pump IIRC. 

 

BTW, there's a trove of reliability data on C-Max at: ... Well it's gone. Idaho National Labs web site had data on 4 Energi and 4 Hybrid 2013 C-Max. The goal was 160K miles in hard service. 3 of 4 Hybrid's lost trannies, but they were bulletproof otherwise. No Energi lost trannies. It's a great car!

 

[Nervous but Excited]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:31 PM, cr08 said:

First thing at that mileage would be to check with the owner to see if they've had transmission work done. The average mileage where problems start to crop up seems to be between 80 and 100k miles.

 

....

 

So ultimately the transmission's going to be the big thing.

 

That all said, just checking KBB and private party puts $9k at the very top end of the 'Excellent' condition scale for those two so take that as you will.

 

As an FYI: A transmission replacement is going to run you between $3000 and $5000 on average. If it was me buying: A 2013 with that high of mileage and no transmission work, I'd seriously haggle down the price given the potential repair work down the road.

 

Talking $13-$14k all in worst case scenario with a transmission replacement, you should be able to find a (late) 2015 or newer easy and those don't have the same transmission issues. Late 2015 builds and newer are trouble free. As an example, for a 2016 hybrid SEL with a conservative 80k miles in Very Good condition they're showing $12k-$14k at the high end. 

 

@cr08 Thanks for this reply - a few questions come out of this:

 

1 - Are you saying that transmission work is inevitable (or at least highly probable) and if it hasn't happened by 100k miles then it's about to happen? OR are you saying that if it hasn't happened by 100k miles then it probably wont happen at all? It seems like the former, but I want to be sure.

 

2- Clearly you are saying that $9k for the 2013 with 100k miles is a high price to pay. BUT WHERE DO I FIND ANYTHING BETTER?! These things are so rare!

3- Same thing goes for your statement about the 2016 with 80k miles for $13k. Theoretically that's great, but I'm really struggling to find one to actually consider. Should I just be more patient and keep my eye out?

[Nervous but Excited]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:01 PM, fbov said:

The concern is the transmission, not the Hybrid HVB. It's why I drive an Escape Hybrid these days. Ironically, Energi didn't show the transmission issue, due to an additional oil pump IIRC. 

 

BTW, there's a trove of reliability data on C-Max at: ... Well it's gone. Idaho National Labs web site had data on 4 Energi and 4 Hybrid 2013 C-Max. The goal was 160K miles in hard service. 3 of 4 Hybrid's lost trannies, but they were bulletproof otherwise. No Energi lost trannies. It's a great car!

 

Thanks @fbov another great reply.

 

So you seem to be making a clear point that the Hybrid transmission is a problem with a very high probability. This is not good news and certainly pushes me away from the 2013. Thanks for the insights.

 

My big question to you is about your Escape Hybrid. This is probably my next-in-line favorite car. Do you have any advice for buying one in this market? Specific years to favor or reject?

I have found only two to consider:

 

1 (very far away from Boulder, but maybe worth it) - https://www.theautohaven.com/inventory/view/14831597/2012-Ford-Escape-4WD-4dr-Hybrid

 

2 (hoping to view tomorrow) - https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1000677940483306/?referralSurface=messenger_lightspeed_banner&referralCode=messenger_banner

 

Any insights would be much apprecaited!

[NRGTi]

To the OP- why are you set on a 2013 model? They're plentiful, since the car sold well initially, but all the stats I can find show that the car became much more reliable in 2015 and later years (as fewer people were buying them). It's not just the transmission problem. Consumer Reports blacklisted the 2013s, but by the later years they were recommending the car. My wife's C-max Hybrid is a 2014. It's been trouble-free for 50K miles so far. My 2017 Energi actually has a problem- a laggy SYNC 3 system that I've  not yet had fixed, because it's an intermittent problem.

 

Compared to the older car, my 2017 Titanium has some advantages over her 2014 SEL:

- Fully adjustable power passenger seat 

- The left hand dash vents are more adjustable, and don't blow cold air on your left hand (this is  no small matter)

- Better looking wheels and headlights

- Newer SYNC 3 system, with better displays and better backup camera

- Key has tailgate open/close button

 

In general, I prefer buying cars from later in the model run, with more of the initial problems ironed out. Good luck with your search! 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by NRGTi

[fbov]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:30 AM, Nervous but Excited said:

My big question to you is about your Escape Hybrid.

I have a 2020 Escape Hybrid, which I see as the successor to the C-Max. I can't speak to the first two generations of Escape Hybrid.

 

Your linking a 2012 tells me price might be very important. I tried to trade in my 2013 for one of the last production C-Max. 18 months later, I got the Escape. In that time, the car lost 30% of its trade in value at 66K miles. It's likely that any 2013-2015 C-Max that looks like a great deal has probably not had the transmission replaced. 

 

I have had nothing but good experience with my two Ford hybrids. I hope you can find one does the same for you. 

[Nervous but Excited]

@NRGTi I am trying to understand whether it's worth paying the premium for later models, or whether I should take my chances with the 2013. Also - If a transmission costs $6k to replace, and a 2013 is more than $6k cheaper than any other year.... Then maybe it makes sense to buy the 2013 and just replace the transmission at some point if necessary.

 

I do, technically, have enough funds available for a later model C-MAX, but I am frugal as can be and need to be convinced of the benefits.

 

@fbov as per the above - I technically could afford a later model C-MAX, but I am frugal and want to make sure that the premium is worth it. Also, at some point a comparison gets made to the Prius. you make it sounds as though I should expect that ALL 2013-2015 models WILL need a transmission replacement at some point. Is that accurate, or is this more of a gamble? If it's a gamble, what would you call the odds? 80% probable? more? less?

 

I really appreciate all of your time and effort educating me ?

 

 

[fbov]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:35 PM, Nervous but Excited said:

... I should expect that ALL 2013-2015 models WILL need a transmission replacement at some point. ...

Yeah... there's a 2015 build date for the fix. You've got the right expectations, I think. 

[Nervous but Excited]

On 12/6/2021 at 5:31 AM, fbov said:

Yeah... there's a 2015 build date for the fix. You've got the right expectations, I think. 

 

Sorry for harping on about this. This is my first rodeo, and I don't want to mess it up.

Are you saying that both the 2013 and the 2014 year models WILL need transmission replacements - and that 2015 and after is a safe bet?

 

Again - I really appreciate your effort in guiding me through this.

[cr08]

I'm certainly not an expert on the hybrid only models, so take this with a grain of salt and I'll defer to the others here: But I don't think the failures are 100% guaranteed, but there's a very high probability. And there's schools of thought as @Billyk24 implied above where those who go to extremes to max their EV usage and hypermile the heck out of them exacerbates the damage that requires the transmission work. This is because in the hybrid models, the transmission fluid pump only runs while the ICE is operating. So in EV operation, the transmission fluid is not circulating regardless of vehicle speed. The Energi's have an auxiliary pump that runs all the time while the vehicle is 'on'.

[SnowStorm]

Well, I guess I'll have to jump in here.  I expect disagreement with some of the following statements but, as someone who completely tore down a failed transmission (maybe the only one), I hope you will give them some credit.  First, I suggest you read this topic and this post and the links it contains about "my story" and the TSB.

• I don't believe all of these early transmissions will fail in say (pick a number), 200k miles. 
• The failure has nothing to do with the bearings themselves.
• The failure most likely has nothing to do with the oil pump running all the time or not.  Read my July 15, 2021 post here and cr08's post following.
• The failure mode is not a slow "wear out" (like bearing wear due to lack of oil) but an abrupt one where a friction-fit band on the transfer shaft slips, thereby allowing the shaft to slop back and forth which causes wear against the housing and gear teeth to be damaged.  In my case, all corners of the teeth on one gear were sheared off and the shaft wore a hole completely through the housing.
• The grinding sound mentioned in the TSB is likely due to gear teeth hitting each other (or the housing).  I suspect that my shaft shifted further than most and the teeth corners were sheared off in one catastrophic event - therefor, I never had a grinding sound afterward. I only had a faint whir under very specific conditions (see below).

Before buying any of these early cars do the following:

• If possible, determine if it might already have had a replacement
• Pull the pan under the engine and check for any leaks as some cars had a sealant failure between sections of the housing.
• Of course, make sure there are no grinding/thumping sounds as described in the TSB
• Make sure there is no faint whirring sound like I experienced. Check for this sound as follows:
   - Drive at about 35 MPH and let off the accelerator to be in EV mode.
   - Repeatedly press the accelerator as far as possible (while staying in EV mode) and let off to go into regen.  Don't press hard enough to kick on the ICE.
   - Listen carefully for a faint smooth whir that starts and stops.  If present, it likely indicates that the transfer shaft is sloping back and forth, rubbing in one direction but not in the other.  I had this sound for possibly 50k miles!  You might hear a "hum" from the electric motor when accelerating so this test might be a bit tricky,  Anyway, the whir disappeared with the replacement transmission.  The whir was not loud at all - could easily be disregarded.
• Drain a tiny bit of transmission fluid and check the color; black or reddish clear (like the new stuff).  I'm not sure about this test as I have never heard if the fluid in a good transmission really stays clear (the change interval is 150k miles).  However, if it is clear, then it should be good as there is no aluminum being worn off the housing.  My fluid was quite black. 
•  Determine replacement cost and assess your willingness to accept the risks.

After getting the car, do the following:

• NEVER use 'L' on the gear shifter or use the Downhill button on the side of the shifter.  That is to say, never use engine breaking - its of little value anyway.  Otherwise, drive how and where you like.  I can't prove it of course but doubt that highway/city and all that makes any difference.
• Change the fluid as recommended.  I suppose if you were having that whirring sound, it might be good to change it more frequently - might delay its eventual demise.
• Of course, be prepared to accept a failure should it ever happen.
• Otherwise, forget about it all and enjoy the car!  I replaced my 2013 transmission at 172k miles and am now at 231k.  I still love driving the car and, in spite of several problems, still consider it the "best" car I've had overall.  Of course part of that "best" is the fuel savings!

Naturally, only you can decide between the older and newer models.  Personally, I would lean towards newer but would hardly rule out the older if everything checked out, it had the features/options I wanted and a really good price.

 

(P.S. More comments here and here.)

[NRGTi]

I have the Consumer Reports reliability rating page for the C-Max up in front of me now. The 2013 models scored 3/5 on Reliability Verdict, and 2/5 in Owner Satisfaction. That improved greatly in 2014, with 5/5 reliability and 4/5 satisfaction. The next two years dipped a bit, as 2015 was down to 4/5 and 3/5, 2016 at 5/5 and 3/5. My 2017 year scored 5/5 and 4.5. 

 

Looking at back issues when I chose  my car, in 2014 the C-Max was on CR's no-buy list. Two years later, with data in on the later model years, they were recommending it as a reliable, economical choice.

 

It's common that first-year cars are trouble-prone. It's also obvious that every part and system in a 2013 is older and more worn than a newer car's. And  consider that a 2013 will be a ten-year-old car in two years. That may not be eligible for a bank  loan, which would reduce its resale value. 

 

All in all, I think the only good reason to buy a 2013 C-Max is if you really like that pale green color, available only that year.

[Nervous but Excited]

Everything you've all said makes sense to me...

 

BUT LOOK AT THIS DEAL: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/953614538609021/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A24367456-64fd-434e-91b5-f9be2099ef05

 

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO SAY NO TO?!

[fbov]

Because they're asking more than I was offered in trade in 2019, when my 2013 had 60K miles. Granted, trade-in value is not the same as private sale price, but that was also 2.5 years ago. I think you can do better. 

[Nervous but Excited]

Thanks @fbov I need the pep talk.

I hope that you are right given the current market. I am probably going to let this one slide.

 

I want to open a whole new can of worms... Why should I go with a C-MAX over a Prius-V? I could start a new thread if y'all prefer, but I'd really appreciate your insights.

 

[djc]

Transmissions:  Consumer Reports gathers repair data from owners.  One of the trouble areas they gather data on is  "major transmission".   Results reported by Ford C-max owners, by model year:

2013     Average

2014    Much worse than average

2015 -17    Much better than average

 

So the owner data here does not suggest that a 2013 will have major transmission failure.

 

Prius V:  When I was looking for a hybrid in 2015  I drove both the Cmax and a Prius V.  The Cmax was faster and handled better.  It felt roomier because of the headroom (I also drove a Fusion hybrid, which was harder to get into and felt claustrophobic after the C-max).  So the C-max was my choice. 

[Nervous but Excited]

On 1/2/2022 at 5:15 PM, djc said:

So the owner data here does not suggest that a 2013 will have major transmission failure.

 

This is strange. Seems to be contrary to much of what I have read on this site and elsewhere. 

[djc]

For trying to assess the probability of a failure, you need data from both those who experienced the failure and those who didn't.  It seems very likely that in forums failures get reported; non-failures not so much.  So failures are over-represented.  Also it appears Ford sold more 2013 model year C-max than any other year, so even if the failure rate were the same every year, you would see more 2013 transmission failures being reported.

Of course, Ford (and maybe some extended warranty underwriters) have the best data.  Ford knows how many they sold, where they were sold (temps may matter), and how many had a warranty claim and at what mileage.  But they won't share that.   

So, as far as I can tell, Consumer Reports has the best data on reliability that we can get.  And it could be much better; they don't give us the actual numbers or the cost data they collect.  However based on what their survey of owners shows, 2013 model year has had a transmission failure rate that is neither especially good nor bad, whereas the 2014 models were bad, and the 2015 and later model years were great.