Energi battery loss- when does it become a problem for you?

[NRGTi]

Today I did one of my infrequent test of total plug-in battery capacity. My 2017 Energi has 57,000 miles on it. Today I got 4.1 KWH out of the battery before the car went to hybrid mode. When new, the car got 5.5 KWH out of the battery, so it's lost 75%. From what I read here and on the old  forum, that's not unusual. I can see several possible ways to feel about this. What's your preference?

 

1) Holy Spit! My car's one-quarter worn out. Better sell it before it's too late!

2) Hold On- the car's still doing what it always did for me: 60 mpg in mixed driving.  (That dropped abruptly from  70 mpg when I replaced the first set of tires with some stickier ones.) There would be no economic or environmental return on replacing it, would there?

 

Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter. Especially since every potential new replacement is more expensive than this car was. New cars have worse visibility and force me to do everything through a touchscreen, and I'm not into that.

 

 

[cr08]

For me it's when the car refuses to drive, not any particular level of degradation. I plan to keep it until it dies 

 

That said, my opinion used to be that I could drive it all the way to high battery degradation without issue (Not that I would, I take care of mine) but I've come to the conclusion recently that higher degradation could cause other driveability issues as the car has a harder time dealing with unbalanced cells. So I'd take that into account.

[raucous]

My 2013 Energi has 85,000 miles on it. Around 80% of those are EV miles. The plug-in battery capacity is now strongly dependent on the temperature. That's always been true to some extent but it seems to be worse now.

 

This summer capacity was 3.7 kWh at 60F. Last week, with temperatures in the 40s, it had dropped to 3.1 kWh. This week, with temperatures in the mid-30s, it's 2.9 kWh and I'm seeing power train issues (surging, lack of regen) after shifting out of EV mode. Maybe that's the battery degradation/drivability limit?

 

I'm not looking forward to this dealer visit.

[Nervous but Excited]

@NRGTi have you had any further thoughts on this?

I am considering buying a 2017 Energi with 70k miles on it. The battery seems to put out 4.8kWh in 13F temperature. It's really difficult trying to figure out whether that is acceptable.

 

See this link for screenshots about the car that I am considering: 

 

 

[cr08]

4.8kwh is definitely in acceptable range (and you may see higher numbers when it warms up!) and at that mileage. Around 5.5-5.6kwh is brand new. If the price is right and the rest of the car checks out, it sounds like a solid vehicle.

[Nervous but Excited]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:40 AM, cr08 said:

4.8kwh is definitely in acceptable range (and you may see higher numbers when it warms up!) and at that mileage. Around 5.5-5.6kwh is brand new. If the price is right and the rest of the car checks out, it sounds like a solid vehicle.

Thanks! I really appreciate the affirmation!

 

[raucous]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:38 AM, raucous said:

My 2013 Energi has 85,000 miles on it. Around 80% of those are EV miles. The plug-in battery capacity is now strongly dependent on the temperature. That's always been true to some extent but it seems to be worse now.

 

This summer capacity was 3.7 kWh at 60F. Last week, with temperatures in the 40s, it had dropped to 3.1 kWh. This week, with temperatures in the mid-30s, it's 2.9 kWh and I'm seeing power train issues (surging, lack of regen) after shifting out of EV mode. Maybe that's the battery degradation/drivability limit?

 

I finally got my Energi into a dealer service department (long backlogs). The code they found (POB42) indicates a larger than normal voltage variance between HV battery sections. The Ford service manual says that cold and hot conditions exacerbate these differences (which I'm seeing) and that they will get worse as the battery continues to deteriorate. It's also possible that the behavior I'm seeing is being caused by a separate module that controls regen, but the dealer thinks that's less likely given the code.

 

Ford won't cover replacement of either of these here on a car this age and with this mileage. My cost for a battery would be $6,300 or so plus installation. They wouldn't recommend doing that, though, until I can get the car in while this is happening so that they can take a closer look at it.  I can't argue with them there. Right now the behavior is intermittent enough that this might be hard to arrange. I'm not sure it's a worthwhile repair once we are sure - even allowing for the crazy used car market these days. Sigh...

 

And, yes, one option we discussed was just driving it until it dies. They don't see it as a dangerous/breakdown situation. It's certainly annoying when it happens though.

[Ford4LIfe]

Just bought a 2014 CMax Energi Titanium.  50k miles.  Battery fully charged shows 8 miles.

 

Since I'm new to this vehicle, I am also wondering how to handle this.  I love the car, drives brand new, not a thing wrong with it.  Love all the bells and whistles and getting good mpg. Maybe looking at replacing battery in 4 years or so, but can I just use it as a Hybrid alone?  How long would battery last using as hybrid only?

 

I plan on keeping the car till it falls apart regardless...:)

[cr08]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ford4LIfe said:

Just bought a 2014 CMax Energi Titanium.  50k miles.  Battery fully charged shows 8 miles.

 

Since I'm new to this vehicle, I am also wondering how to handle this.  I love the car, drives brand new, not a thing wrong with it.  Love all the bells and whistles and getting good mpg. Maybe looking at replacing battery in 4 years or so, but can I just use it as a Hybrid alone?  How long would battery last using as hybrid only?

 

I plan on keeping the car till it falls apart regardless...:)

 

I've responded to you in another thread with steps to do a proper battery capacity check. The 'guess-o-meter' showing the miles of range is just that and is not an accurate determination of capacity. 8 miles in cold sub-freezing temps with high climate usage can bring you down near there. Mine is just shy of 4kwh capacity and I tend to see 10-12 miles with climate set to about 67 most of the time. Which brings me to another key point as a new owner: Unlike other vehicles with more 'dumb' climate control systems, ours is a bit more intelligent. If you're used to just 'cranking the heat' and have it set to higher temps like 75 or 'HI', it will demand a lot more from the vehicle and can lower your mileage and estimated range. Lowering the temp will ease up on that. Front defrost will also significantly add to the load and loss of mileage.

 

Driving it as a hybrid is perfectly fine. In fact early on in the life of the C-Max, a lot of them were lease vehicles and never plugged in. Second owners confirmed near new battery capacity with little degradation. In theory it should last quite a while barring no other issues. In hybrid mode there's a lot less stress on the battery and it also cycles in a much smaller range of charge that is less detrimental to its life overall.

Edited March 1, 2022 by cr08

[Ford4LIfe]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:19 PM, cr08 said:

 

I've responded to you in another thread with steps to do a proper battery capacity check. The 'guess-o-meter' showing the miles of range is just that and is not an accurate determination of capacity. 8 miles in cold sub-freezing temps with high climate usage can bring you down near there. Mine is just shy of 4kwh capacity and I tend to see 10-12 miles with climate set to about 67 most of the time. Which brings me to another key point as a new owner: Unlike other vehicles with more 'dumb' climate control systems, ours is a bit more intelligent. If you're used to just 'cranking the heat' and have it set to higher temps like 75 or 'HI', it will demand a lot more from the vehicle and can lower your mileage and estimated range. Lowering the temp will ease up on that. Front defrost will also significantly add to the load and loss of mileage.

 

Driving it as a hybrid is perfectly fine. In fact early on in the life of the C-Max, a lot of them were lease vehicles and never plugged in. Second owners confirmed near new battery capacity with little degradation. In theory it should last quite a while barring no other issues. In hybrid mode there's a lot less stress on the battery and it also cycles in a much smaller range of charge that is less detrimental to its life overall.

 

Thanks.  I don't live in a cold temperature area..moderate...been 35 in mornings...61 in afternoons. I'm figuring the total charge of 8 miles is low because the previous owner (a 1 owner car) did not manage battery life or know anything about charging it.  

 

Any idea where to purchase a new battery pack.....lol?

[Billyk24]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:26 PM, Ford4LIfe said:

 

Thanks.  I don't live in a cold temperature area..moderate...been 35 in mornings...61 in afternoons. I'm figuring the total charge of 8 miles is low because the previous owner (a 1 owner car) did not manage battery life or know anything about charging it.  

 

Any idea where to purchase a new battery pack.....lol?

Heat is the issue.  Heat comes from just driving in any mode and especially when driving in EV mode, heat comes from charging.  heat comes from driving at higher speeds -going up hills or placing excess amps on the battery pack  heat comes from regenerating braking, heat comes from just sitting in the sunny parking lot.    The Energi has an inept thermal regulatory system and can't cool the battery pack in an adequate manner.   The air cooled battery pack works poorly in warmer weather even with the air conditioning at full blast at 60f it can not cool the battery pack.   I seen it first hand with my third party hardware that monitors such.   Living in a warm part of the country is worse for the battery pack than living where winter exists for four months a year.    It is best to use EV driving in slow traffic conditions and in piece meal fashion to preserve the battery pack.     The warranty does not cover degradation.   Don't expect the dealership's service manager to be up to date on electric vehicles or the Energi unless the personally own one.  

[jzchen]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:26 AM, Ford4LIfe said:

Any idea where to purchase a new battery pack.....lol?

I believe Greentec Auto sells them:

 

https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid-batteries/ford

[jzchen]

First time I saw an Energi specific battery for sale (EDIT to correct link address.  Thank you @raucous.  They must have changed the address, the page still says "2015"):

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-c-max-energi-2013-2018-plug-in-hybrid-battery

Edited March 27, 2022 by jzchen

[Billyk24]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:39 PM, jzchen said:

First time I saw an Energi specific battery for sale:

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-c-max-energi-2013-2015-plug-in-hybrid-battery

Interesting but...do they have the ability to read Ford Software to ensure all is working correctly?   How much experience do these installers have doing battery replacements. 

 

[jzchen]

When I emailed Green Tec a while ago they responded that they had a battery for the Energi.  Best Hybrid Batteries came up from a Google search.  I haven't read of them prior.  It does note they've "sold 24" so hopefully someone can remark/review...

[raucous]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:39 AM, jzchen said:

First time I saw an Energi specific battery for sale:

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-c-max-energi-2013-2015-plug-in-hybrid-battery

It looks like the URL is:

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-c-max-energi-2013-2018-plug-in-hybrid-battery

 

now with a surprising "205 sold." The dozens of reviews there seem to be spam. Neither of those gives me a warm feeling about the product.

Edited March 26, 2022 by raucous
Incorrectly parsed an earlier post.

[raucous]

When I posted back in December I was seeing errors from the battery management system on my 2013 C-MAX Energi only when temperatures were in the mid-30s (about as cold as it normally gets here). Now, at the end of March, I'm occasionally seeing them even when temperatures are around 50F. So, as predicted, the HVB battery does seem to be deteriorating. 

It's still an intermittent problem. Sometimes I won't see a problem for weeks. If it gets colder it might be every other day. I'm uncertain where to go from here. It might be clearer if the dealer could see it but it's not that consistent yet. 

 

The dealer was told by Ford's warranty system that the HVB battery in this 9 year old car is no longer covered. But I live in a CARB state (Washington). Shouldn't a HVB battery replacement be covered for a car that's less than 10 years old? I know that Ford won't cover degradation, but this is more than that now. One of these errors completely disables the hybrid system, resulting in uneven acceleration and braking until I restart the car. Will Ford see it that way, though - especially given that the dealer has yet to see it happening? They're just reading the codes after the fact.

 

Maybe I need to wait until it gets worse? I hate waiting... I could also just stop charging the HVB battery. I've never seen this happen except when the car is running off of the HVB. It works just fine as a straight hybrid. That seems like a waste.