bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I agree that the EPA tests suck but it's the "game" to be played when comparing hybrids against hybrids and hybrids against non-hybrid vehicles. Big $$$$ ride on the outcome. And, I have to agree with bigalpha, one doesn't spend millions (likely 100s of millions) to develop a product to have it fall short of market expectations and the competition. $$$$ will likely trump ethics especially when ones future is highly dependent on winning the game by any "legal" means. How the product actually performs in use vs the game is secondary to winning the game especially when there is a scapegoat - the designer of the game.It's a real shame too. If Ford would have "estimated" the FE closer to what people have been getting in everyday life, there would be no lawsuit and no egg to clean off. In fact, I think people prefer to find out the thing they just bought is more capable than advertised, rather than the opposite. The CMax has a lot if good features that I think would allow it to compete competitively against the Prius. "Estimate" low, but have a campaign showing what's possible with it. Starting your hybrid campaign witha brand new car here with a lawsuit about how your hybrid sucks (along with independent testers saying the same) isn't very good PR strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsaguy Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) good info here:"Testing advanced technology and alternative fuel vehiclesFuel economy information is required for all vehicles to determine appropriate values for fuel economy labels and for the CAFE program. The regulations clearly specify, for example, that both City and Highway test values are required for labeling and CAFE. The regulations also require that label test results must be adjusted using specified methods in order to reflect real-world fuel economy. While EPA strives to periodically update the regulatory test procedures such that all technologies are appropriately addressed, there may be instances when some emerging technologies or fuels are not able to be tested using existing regulations. Because of this, EPA has special regulatory provisions that allow EPA to direct manufacturers to test such vehicles using methods specified by EPA. Similarly, EPA is able to determine the content and appearance of the fuel economy labels when existing regulations do not appropriately address the technology or the fuel being used. For example, the regulations do not currently address how to determine City and Highway fuel efficiency values for electric vehicles. During the period when regulations are being developed for electric vehicles, EPA has specified, for example, that manufacturers use an accepted procedure developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers: the procedure known as SAE J1634. Further, to better approximate expected real-world performance, EPA has directed that the manufacturers adjust the test results (including City and Highway fuel efficiency and driving range) for the fuel economy label using equations and methods specified in the regulations."from here:http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/data.htm Edited July 19, 2013 by salsaguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelld Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I do not think the rating should be changed. The EPA test is not the real world, its a comparative baseline used to measure vehicle efficiency under laboratory conditions. Test drives at your local dealer are where you simulate your daily driving conditions and give real world expected MPG. My MPG has deviated little from what I saw from my original test drive. I have been surprised at the number of posters unaware of EPA metrics and what they mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Test drives at your local dealer are where you simulate your daily driving conditions and give real world expected MPG. The normal test drive around the block is good enough to simulate daily driving conditions? You must not drive very far every day :runaway: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Thanks for the link above salsaguy. I found some info I had been looking for but not everything yet. What I'm trying to find are how the adjustments to the EPA cycle FE numbers were determined that ultimately determine the EPA sticker numbers (not the equations). Second, I'm trying to find out how the adjustments are validated - simulation, real world testing or what. I don't believe it's good enough to calculate two numbers and then say "your mileage will vary". I also don't believe one size can fit all for FE. IIRC, the tests were originally designed to measure emissions for emissions compliance of new vehicles and FE was a by product. This works fine for emissions but IMO not for FE. The consumer is generally not interested in their exact emissions - it's either PASS or FAIL. We know that vehicles can be modified like removing certain emission systems and still pass the state emissions testing. But, IMO the consumer wants a better estimate of their real world FE. I believe given the existing tests and simulations that fuel consumption data can be gathered and then used to determine estimated FE under varying driving conditions (including ambient temperature, speeds for various miles driven, acceleration rates, starts stops and so forth). It would be easy then to allow the consumer to input their driving parameters into a simulation model and get a range of expected FE numbers. As I've said before, I can't believe that manufacturers don't already have models for such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 As I've said before, I can't believe that manufacturers don't already have models for such. Well, they probably do but they are for internal (Ford) use only. Probably runs quickly on their fancy simulation computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmonty Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I do not think the rating should be changed. The EPA test is not the real world, its a comparative baseline used to measure vehicle efficiency under laboratory conditions. Test drives at your local dealer are where you simulate your daily driving conditions and give real world expected MPG. My MPG has deviated little from what I saw from my original test drive. I have been surprised at the number of posters unaware of EPA metrics and what they mean.Not even the EPA agrees with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelld Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) The normal test drive around the block is good enough to simulate daily driving conditions? You must not drive very far every day :runaway:Reread what I stated, my test drives consist of at least a 15 mile loop driving under similar conditions the vehicle will face during a normal work day. Edited July 19, 2013 by darrelld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelld Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Not even the EPA agrees with that.I don't think the C-Max should be restated to something other than what data the current test produced. I absolutely agree the EPA test itself needs changing to reflect real world driving conditions, especially the new higher speed limits nationwide. SnowStorm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Reread what I stated, my test drives consist of at least a 15 mile loop driving under similar conditions the vehicle will face during a normal work day. Sorry, you didn't post what your normal day consisted of. How many people that buy cars have a similar driving pattern to that of a typical test drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhackwyatt Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 How many times are we going to beat a dead horse? Just wondering... :finger: obob, hybridbear and darrelld 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelld Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 How many times are we going to beat a dead horse? Just wondering... :finger:++++1 hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 How many times are we going to beat a dead horse? Just wondering... :finger: I thought we were having a pretty good discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hybridbear Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 The normal test drive around the block is good enough to simulate daily driving conditions? You must not drive very far every day :runaway:This is why you shouldn't do a test drive around the block. Find a dealer who'll let you do an extended test drive so that you can drive the car on the same streets where you'll use it every day. If your main reason for buying a car is fuel efficiency and you don't verify the fuel efficiency on your route before buying it then shame on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmonty Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 This is why you shouldn't do a test drive around the block. Find a dealer who'll let you do an extended test drive so that you can drive the car on the same streets where you'll use it every day. If your main reason for buying a car is fuel efficiency and you don't verify the fuel efficiency on your route before buying it then shame on you.Trolling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalpha Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) This is why you shouldn't do a test drive around the block. Find a dealer who'll let you do an extended test drive so that you can drive the car on the same streets where you'll use it every day. If your main reason for buying a car is fuel efficiency and you don't verify the fuel efficiency on your route before buying it then shame on you. I did an extended test drive when I got my CMax. Unfortunately, they only loaned it to me for an hour. They didn't want me to do my normal 3 hour round trip drive to work/home. I guess it's foolish to assume that you'd get something resembling what was advertised? Edited July 19, 2013 by bigalpha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhackwyatt Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I thought we were having a pretty good discussion? We are, but this isn't the only thread on this topic on the forum. The same thing has been discussed over and over since the car came out around Oct/Nov of 2012. Ford lied, Ford cheated, Ford is amoral. Or EPA test sucks, EPA lied, EPA is amoral. Or neither lied, neither is amoral, I beat EPA numbers all the time. There just doesn't seem to be any new ideas adding to the discussion. It's like Obamacare or something, people have chosen their side and it's darn near impossible to convince someone of the others viewpoints. Jus-A-CMax and darrelld 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) How many times are we going to beat a dead horse? Just wondering... :finger:Not until the threads showing screen shots of high mileage trips stop. We know one can get high mileage and how it's done - another dead horse. ;) Edited July 19, 2013 by Plus 3 Golfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemax71 Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) In my opinion, the EPA should provide a chart showing MPG at speeds of 35, 45, 55, and 70 MPH at various temperatures. Edited July 19, 2013 by ceemax71 obob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhackwyatt Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Not until the threads showing screen shots of high mileage trips stop. We know one can get high mileage and how it's done - another dead horse. ;)That's a fair point too. I offer no animosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsaguy Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 how about this software (free demo available. otherwise $80 to buy).:http://performancetrends.com/fuel_economy_calculator.htm Thanks for the link above salsaguy. I believe given the existing tests and simulations that fuel consumption data can be gathered and then used to determine estimated FE under varying driving conditions (including ambient temperature, speeds for various miles driven, acceleration rates, starts stops and so forth). It would be easy then to allow the consumer to input their driving parameters into a simulation model and get a range of expected FE numbers. As I've said before, I can't believe that manufacturers don't already have models for such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsaguy Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) another older simulation software here:http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/28441-hybrid-electric-vehicle-model-in-simulink#feedback Edited July 20, 2013 by salsaguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsaguy Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 interesting article here with some alternatives to the EPA method:http://theenergycollective.com/willem-post/184756/plug-hybrid-mileage-overstated-epa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salsaguy Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 great article showing the negative aspects of the poor EPA test model and how it hurts hybrids: http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Why-is-the-EPA-so-bad-at-estimating-hybrid-fuel-4483222.php darrelld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelld Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 great article showing the negative aspects of the poor EPA test model and how it hurts hybrids: http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Why-is-the-EPA-so-bad-at-estimating-hybrid-fuel-4483222.phpThis one of the best articles I have read on the EPA test process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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