Oil Quality and Change Interval

[ptjones]

Well Blackstone sent me another bottle to put my next oil change sample in.  It might take me another year to get another 11K ICE miles(24k odometer miles)! :)

I would think if bad things are happening I would start to use some oil. :headscratch:  :)

 

Paul

Edited January 10, 2016 by ptjones

[hybridbear]

Is there any easy way to get a sample between oil changes? How much oil does Blackstone need?

[ptjones]

Is there any easy way to get a sample between oil changes? How much oil does Blackstone need?

They would like to have 3oz, but could do it with more than 1oz.  You could get oil from the dipstick tube with small hose, but I think it would be easier to loosen drain plug to get what you need. definitely messier. LOL :) 

 

Paul 

[fbov]

I think it's worth a call to Blackstone about the 3M's, that's all. They may be able to tell you something. I agree that a real problem would make itself known... the tranny sure did.

 

I'm less than 4K miles from my next change, so I should have my next data point in April or so, that will answer a number of questions. We'll both have used a Mobil 1 variant. I may send in a T=0 sample from the bottle, just for grins. For sampling, it's hard to beat a hose in the fill tube... a clean hose, of course.

 

HAve fun

Frank

[hybridbear]

They would like to have 3oz, but could do it with more than 1oz.  You could get oil from the dipstick tube with small hose, but I think it would be easier to loosen drain plug to get what you need. definitely messier. LOL :)

 

Paul 

I was hoping it would be possible to get enough oil just off the dipstick. But I guess not. We go years between oil changes in our Energi. I should've asked the dealer to save some oil when they did the first oil change last summer. I don't expect to do another oil change in it until 2017.

[fbov]

I looked at a simple sampling approach; use a hose just long enough to capture 1oz. Feed the hose into the dipstick port, apply vacuum until full and you're done!

 

The problem is that you need 20+ feet of hose for the thinnest wall tubing that fits the dipstick port. C'est la vie!

 

Frank

[fbov]

I came across something on Ecomodder that's germane to this thread - an oil life analyzer.

 

$50 bucks

http://www.amazon.com/Lubricheck-Motor-Oil-Tester-Instantly/dp/B00HBAG9AC

 

Cummins forum discussion. Temperature sensitivity is due to viscosity; see SAE paper.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/563139-lubricheck-2.html

 

And an SAE paper on what it's doing. The free preview gets you the gist of GM's approach. Mostly conductivity...

http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-1366/

 

For those seeking an oil change interval that's based on actual oil data, this seems ideal!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

At 11K ICE mi. BlackStone said my oil was fine so maybe I could have gone to 15K ICE miles. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

I went close to 30k Odometer miles, 14K ICE miles on this oil change. :) Of three Lab Reports this was the best one. :) They said my Mobil 1 0W20 was still good. :yahoo:

 

Paul

[MaxHeadroom]

 

 

I went close to 30k Odometer miles, 14K ICE miles on this oil change. :) Of three Lab Reports this was the best one. :) They said my Mobil 1 0W20 was still good. :yahoo:

 

Paul

 

Paul, you did get great results.  Thanks for your enthusiasm and sharing.     ....   Your Fe (iron) levels were low for that many miles and the Universal Average Blackstone collects.  Iron accumulates in there, so its on a per-mile basis.

 

Mobil 1 0w20 AFE has proven itself to be a good choice for oil, and its available in Walmart for cheap in 5-quart jugs.

 

First, I look at the Fe iron results.  Yours was great.  (Blackstone's Universal Average was a value from far lesser miles, so you beat it per mile.)

 

Second, make sure the viscosity didn't get too low, and yours is perfect (an 8 is right for a 0w20 weight).  I might add, too high of a viscosity is an indication the oil has been oxidizing (burning) too much, and yours was fine there.

 

Third, the next most important number is TBN, a measure of the chemical acid-fighting ability in the oil.  You didn't pay extra for that so its missing.  Would have really liked to see that TBN number after so many miles you put on it.  TBN should be above 2 to be really safe.

 

Fourth, fuel dilution was low, indicating your rings are doing their job properly & also your fuel injectors aren't leaking, all good in your case.

 

Fifth, insolubles was OK, but you might be able to get that lower (and lower Fe iron wear) if you use a Fram Ultra dual-layer synthetic oil filter media oil filter.  Or a MicroGreen oil filter would do it too.  (Also Royal Purple oil filters and Amsoil oil filters good for this. )

 

Sixth, the copper, lead, and aluminum values were low for you.  That is bearing babbit wear, and your bearings appear to be just fine.

 

Seventh, potassium levels for you were low.  Too much potassium is an indication engine coolant is leaking into your oil, but you're fine.

 

Eighth, I look at silicon.  Yours was average.  Too much silicon means your air filter might not be keeping sand silica particles out.

 

All the other elements you see there can be ignored, as they come from Mobil1 0w20 additives, not your engine.  Technically interesting, but not about your engine.

 

I'll try to send in my results (Pennzoil Platinum 0w20).

 

Maybe it would be better to stick with Ford's IOLM (oil change light) algorithms.  Keep in mind you could be gumming up the rings gradually with aged oil.  You went a bunch of miles.  Cool that it has worked well so far.  Good test.

[fbov]

oil results.pdf

 

I tabulated my oil data, which includes TBN, is a result of consistently following the oil change indicator. I need to add Paul's recent addition. 

- all TBNs are below 2, as low as 0.5 for the first change after I took ownership.

- my flash point and fuel contamination seem worse with 0W20 synthetic, compared with 5W20 Ford blend.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

I think there might be some confusion on miles on unit, some are Odometer miles and mine is ICE miles.  I personal think ICE miles are what's important, ICE miles % can vary between 30% to 70% as compared with Odometer miles. So it's possible to have 10k on odometer and only 3k on ICE, it would be a waist of money and oil to do a oil change. IMO :) Does anyone know how long Mobil 1 is good for just sitting in oil pan? That could be what determines when to change the oil. Going to Mobil site they're talking about changing oil annually. And again my last oil change was about one year/14k ICE miles and BlackStone Labs said my oil was still good. :)  

 

Paul

Edited March 30, 2017 by ptjones

[MaxHeadroom]

Does anyone know how long Mobil 1 is good for just sitting in oil pan? That could be what determines when to change the oil. Going to Mobil site they're talking about changing oil annually. And again my last oil change was about one year/14k ICE miles and BlackStone Labs said my oil was still good. :)  

You can go up to 2 years with Mobil 1 in the sump IF you reach full oil temperature on at least 80% of your trips.  (Short trips, acid build-up in oil, shortens life since oil doesn't get hot enough on some short trips.)   Synthetic base oils are very oxidation stable so heat doesn't hurt it much, but acid build-up from too many short trips mean you shouldn't go over 1 year in those engines.

Personally, I would only do 2 years if I had Mobil 1 Extended Performance or Mobil 1 Annual Protection  (not Mobil 1 AFE) or Amsoil SS oil in the sump with a Fram Ultra glass fiber media oil filter which lasts longer.   Just to be on the safe side for very little extra $$$ spent, like $5 more expense if using Mobil 1 Ext Perf instead of AFE.

[ptjones]

In my case I drive to many miles per year( 30k mi.+) which works out to 15k ICE miles so i'm not going to be going much farther than a year. :)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

MaxHeadroom, you mention the Fram Ultra, and other, filters as good - do you think they are better than the Mobil 1 Synthetic filter?  It often comes with the oil in an "oil change special".

[MaxHeadroom]

MaxHeadroom, you mention the Fram Ultra, and other, filters as good - do you think they are better than the Mobil 1 Synthetic filter?  It often comes with the oil in an "oil change special".

Fram Ultra is better than even the latest version of the Mobil 1 synthetic oil filter.

The reasons why:  Mobil 1 Synthetic oil filter is really using only about half synthetic (glass fibers) media, and half cellulose (wood fiber) filter media.

 

By comparison, Fram Ultra has a full-synthetic (100% glass fiber) dual layer media with wire-backing, none of which the Mobil 1 oil filter has.

On top of all that, the 4548-12 standard performance tests show the Fram Ultra gets more tinier particles out than Mobil filters. (99% at 20 microns vs. 30 micron threshold).

 

Bottom line:  Fram Ultra holds more potential garbage (grams) before it clogs than Mobil 1 oil filter, and the Ultra filters smaller junk out.

 

Not as good as Fram Ultra, but better than Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil filters:

--- Royal Purple oil filters

--- Amsoil EaO oil filters

--- MicroGreen oil filters 

Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil filters are slightly better than Fram ToughGuard (TG) oil filters, BTW....  Fram's Ultra is the king though.

[fbov]

Fram Ultra is better than ...

Can you show us the evidence for these claims? Your link to the 4548-12 performance testing is missing.

Frank

[MaxHeadroom]

Can you show us the evidence for these claims? Your link to the 4548-12 performance testing is missing.

Frank

The Fram website has it, and the Mobil 1 website has it. ...  It just doesn't get any easier to google that, or just go those websites.

http://www.fram.com/oil-filters/fram-ultra-synthetic-oil-filter/

https://mobiloil.com/en/oil-filters/performance-oil-filters

Amsoil and Royal Purple oil filter results are out there too.  I'm way to lazy to repeat a past search on those.  Feel free.

 

Let's say you don't care about 4548-12 results, as some don't:

Then, just get the Fram Ultra based on wire-backing and full-synthetic glass fiber media, which can't be debated.   Actually 4548-12 is important here, but not the only thing.

[fbov]

I asked for data, not installation instructions or marketing pieces. 

 

You got nothing behind this stuff, right? No data, just unproven claims and excuses... why do you waste our time?

 

Frank

[ptjones]

IMO Experience trumps everything else :), like I said before I have 151K mi and I don't use a noticeable amount in 14K ICE miles and Blackstone Labs Report is the best I have had. So using FORD oil filters and Mobil 1 is plenty good enough for the ICE to out last the car. Spending anymore is a waist of money unless the oil filter improves MPG's like maybe K&N. :) 

 

Paul 

[MaxHeadroom]

I asked for data, not installation instructions or marketing pieces. 

 

You got nothing behind this stuff, right? No data, just unproven claims and excuses... why do you waste our time?

 

Frank

You are missing the info.  Don't be confused.   I can't hold your hand anymore.

The 4548-12 test results are on the websites, for those who are able to find it there.

Hint:  Look for the asterisk statements to support their efficiency claims.

Those 4548-12 statements are from actual tests performed.  And Fram Ultra construction is a fact.

So take your weird attitude somewhere else and leave it to us engineers to evaluate facts.

Edited April 5, 2017 by MaxHeadroom

[MaxHeadroom]

IMO Experience trumps everything else :), like I said before I have 151K mi and I don't use a noticeable amount in 14K ICE miles and Blackstone Labs Report is the best I have had. So using FORD oil filters and Mobil 1 is plenty good enough for the ICE to out last the car. Spending anymore is a waist of money unless the oil filter improves MPG's like maybe K&N. :)

Thats basically true, you can't go too wrong using those two filters, as they at least both have silicon ADBV, my minimum requirement.

 

For your extra long oil change time/miles, I'd try to use the best though, so why mess around with inferior equipment since its cheaper or about as cheap?

 

As for expense, Fram Ultra is actually cheaper than the M1 filter.  Mobil charges more because the consumer doesn't know, and they often buy it to "match" their Mobil1 oil purchase (emotion), all marketing tricks.

[fbov]

... So take your weird attitude somewhere else and leave it to us engineers to evaluate facts.

You are no engineer. 

 

Engineers can answer simple questions. That may seem weird to you, but then, you're more of a lawyer than a technical person. 

[MaxHeadroom]

Engineers can answer simple questions.

You can't even find the simple 4548-12 results when I give you the web page link!

What a pure idiot.

[ptjones]

Thats basically true, you can't go too wrong using those two filters, as they at least both have silicon ADBV, my minimum requirement.

 

For your extra long oil change time/miles, I'd try to use the best though, so why mess around with inferior equipment since its cheaper or about as cheap?

 

As for expense, Fram Ultra is actually cheaper than the M1 filter.  Mobil charges more because the consumer doesn't know, and they often buy it to "match" their Mobil1 oil purchase (emotion), all marketing tricks.

I have never used a M1 filter, just FORD and K&N.  :)

 

Paul