MY CMAX is a lemon

[Wendelina Stout]

My 2005 mazda5 Wagon was dying and I needed a good economical car to drive that would be good for our family. I drive over 28,000 miles a year so we thought a hybrids extra cost could work out for us in the long run. We did not like the noise of the Prius or the lack of power or its seats on our backs. The New Cmax had been released and it was said to get 47/47/47. We bought what we thought was a nice car. Well as you all know it did not get the miles as advertised and ford gave us a pittance check for the change in mileage. The mileage was not the only problem and had it been I would have been Happy as 43 mpg is nothing to scoff at.  I have had to take to have warranty repair more times than I would like to mention along with all the recalls and computer fixes. Well I had to have the door fixed by a body shop because it was not on right. I had to have the front and rear seat covers replaced since the stitching was coming apart. I had to have an air conditioner actuator fixed. The check engine light had come on 2 separate times. I got some warning about the fuel system too. We spent extra money to get the automatic opening tailgate. That has been a nightmare. It started by not opening or closing right. We went in to get that fixed and well they did fix the not opening problem but a week or two later it would not close and latch. We take it in and it is “fixed” take it home and it doesn’t work. After the fifth or sixth time I decide to Use Lemon Law. Well this is fun. As we are waiting to hear from Ford they or their lawyers are dragging their feet. My wife is starting to have problems with the HVAC system again and is just so fed up she doesn’t use any features on the car afraid they might break. The dealer has still never called me back with a way to fix my tailgate and my warranty is coming up to 36,000 miles. Thanks Ford. All I can say is the experience kept me from buying a 2014 F150 and I bought new 2014 Tundra. Stay away From the CMAX People. I have owned a Ranger and 2 F150s, Two Mustangs, one a SVT Cobra, And a Lincoln. I was a loyal die hard Ford Fan. I understand that this could be just a One off, but the hassle and experience and waiting to do the right thing by buying back this lemon has led me to vow never to buy a FORD vehicle again.

[mtb9153]

I understand your claims but as a CMax owner who has not experienced them with my SEL, I don't agree with your claims.  But I'd just like to say that the 47/47/47 mpg claim is not false.  It can be done, I do it all the time.  You just have to be willing to work at it using the right techniques of braking and acceleration.  These cars are not like normal cars they require special driving to deliver the mileage claims by Ford and the EPA.  If Ford is guilty of anything it would be of not letting owners know at the time of purchase that special driving techniques would be required to achieve the 47/47 mpg.  Bottom line is it is a fact that they will deliver 47mpg each and everyday and even more.  I've seen 50 to 60 mpg on my car and no battery issues.  Sorry for your problems with your CMax.  It is easy for me to say I think you should hang in there and give this remarkable car another chance.  Sure I've had some issues with mine but nothing which would make me want to give it up.  I've been tracking my gas mileage since April 2013 on www.fuelly.com.  These are the facts...

• 50 Fuel-Ups
• 81.7 Best MPG
• 24,536 Miles Tracked
• ^$0.088 Cost/Mile

In that time it has cost me ^$187.73 to run Maxus in less than a year.  I used to spent that much in a little more than two tanks of gas with my regular gas burning SUV.  I love my CMax and would buy another for my wife if I could afford another car payment.  My last tank of gas yesterday (3/8/14) before that was on 2/14/14, almost a month.  I can live with that.

Edited March 9, 2014 by mtb9153

[plus 3 golfer]

I understand your claims but as a CMax owner who has not experienced them with my SEL, I don't agree with your claims.  But I'd just like to say that the 47/47/47 mpg claim is not false.  It can be done, I do it all the time.  You just have to be willing to work at it using the right techniques of braking and acceleration.  These cars are not like normal cars they require special driving to deliver the mileage claims by Ford and the EPA.  If Ford is guilty of anything it would be of not letting owners know at the time of purchase that special driving techniques would be required to achieve the 47/47 mpg.  Bottom line is it is a fact that they will deliver 47mpg each and everyday and even more.  I've seen 50 to 60 mpg on my car and no battery issues.  Sorry for your problems with your CMax.  It is easy for me to say I think you should hang in there and give this remarkable car another chance.  Sure I've had some issues with mine but nothing which would make me want to give it up.  I've been tracking my gas mileage since April 2013 on www.fuelly.com.  These are the facts...

• 50 Fuel-Ups
• 81.7 Best MPG
• 24,536 Miles Tracked
• ^$0.088 Cost/Mile

In that time it has cost me ^$187.73 to run Maxus in less than a year.  I used to spent that much in a little more than two tanks of gas with my regular gas burning SUV.  I love my CMax and would buy another for my wife if I could afford another car payment.  My last tank of gas yesterday (3/8/14) before that was on 2/14/14, almost a month.  I can live with that.

Wendelina Stout, good luck with your buyback.  I've only owned 3 Ford vehicles (1965 Mustang, 1986 Sable Wagon, and the C-Max).  As you see I'm not a Ford fanatic and likely will not buy another Ford product even though I've not had the issues that many have had with their C-Max.   

 

mtb9153, I think your math is wrong.  $187 buys me less than 60 gallons of fuel in AZ and in CA that's probably less than 50 gallons.  50 gallons times 41mpg is only 2050 miles not 24536 miles.  Also, 24536 times $0.088 is $2159 not $187.73.

 

In addition, the C-Max is a problematic car compared to other vehicles. It started with the 47 mpg fiasco.   How many recalls / trips to  the dealer does it take?  The sum total of recalls for my last 2 new cars in 225k miles was one and for warranty repairs was 2 (seat belt buckle and trunk hinges).  My C-Max has been to the dealer 3 times (twice for recalls and once for musty AC smell).   I have said this in other threads, buybacks are rare on several other non-Ford forums I follow.  But not so on this one.  When Ford can't fix problems in 3 attempts something is not right. ;)

 

   

  

Edited March 10, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[mtb9153]

Plus3golfer, below is copy and pasted right from my fuelly.com page.  I also have the smelly A/C function which has yet to be resolved and I'm growing very tire of dealing with it.  I've never had anything like that before in any car I've owned.  Did you get rid of it?

 

Basic Stats

• 41.4 (+0.1)

  avg MPG

• 47.1 (+4.5)

  last MPG

• 81.7 (10/5/12)

  best MPG

• ^$3.79 Avg. Price/Gallon
• ^$46.93 Avg. Price/Fuel-up
• ^$0.088 Avg. Price/Mile
• ^$187.73 Total Spent

Cost Analysis 2014

Edited March 9, 2014 by mtb9153

[plus 3 golfer]

The cost analysis of $187 apparently is for only 2014 (about 2 months) not since you've started tracking in fuelly.  Here's the numbers since you started tracking in fuelly.

• $3.83 Avg. Price/Gallon
• $47.14Avg. Price/Fuel-up
• $0.091Avg. Price/Mile
• $1,367.16

 

The dealer did something similar to this video to get rid of the musty smell.

[62Lincoln]

  I have said this in other threads, buybacks are rare on several other non-Ford forums I follow.   

 

Go spend some quality time on a BMW forum, you'll be disabused of that notion.

Edited March 9, 2014 by 62Lincoln

[fbov]

Gents,

While the OP is venting frustation rather than requesting assistance, I'd like to think we can respond in a freindly and courteous manner to a first-time poster, regardless the content of their post.

 

When greeted by "I don't agree" and "... your math is wrong," I'm unlikely to come back. Yet that's the message I got perusing the thread.

 

As long-term posters, remember you're also ambassadors. Thankfully, the first respondant to the other "lemon" thread started the reply with "Welcome..." and commisserated rather than rebuffing them.

 

Remember, there's no better way to kill a troll than with kindness!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ScubaDadMiami]

As long-term posters, remember you're also ambassadors.

:thumbsup:

[plus 3 golfer]

Gents,

While the OP is venting frustation rather than requesting assistance, I'd like to think we can respond in a freindly and courteous manner to a first-time poster, regardless the content of their post.

 

When greeted by "I don't agree" and "... your math is wrong," I'm unlikely to come back. Yet that's the message I got perusing the thread.

 

As long-term posters, remember you're also ambassadors. Thankfully, the first respondant to the other "lemon" thread started the reply with "Welcome..." and commisserated rather than rebuffing them.

 

Remember, there's no better way to kill a troll than with kindness!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Which is exactly what I did in my response to the OP. . :) "Wendelina Stout, good luck with your buyback.  I've only owned 3 Ford vehicles (1965 Mustang, 1986 Sable Wagon, and the C-Max).  As you see I'm not a Ford fanatic and likely will not buy another Ford product even though I've not had the issues that many have had with their C-Max."   I edited my original post to put the quoted sentences first rather than last as in my original post as evidently their was confusion as to which post "I think your math is wrong" refers to.  

 

I fail to see how my response to mtb9153's post negatively affects whether the OP comes back.

 

 

 

   

[Laurel]

I am pretty sensitive by nature and nothing anyone has written has been offensive from what I can see.  It comes across as matter-of-fact and not rude.  You all are pretty courteous on the whole and this is one of the better forums for civil behaviour.

[C-MaxSea]

In addition, the C-Max is a problematic car compared to other vehicles. It started with the 47 mpg fiasco.   How many recalls / trips to  the dealer does it take?  The sum total of recalls for my last 2 new cars in 225k miles was one and for warranty repairs was 2 (seat belt buckle and trunk hinges).  My C-Max has been to the dealer 3 times (twice for recalls and once for musty AC smell).

Plus 3, no offence, I just had to respond with a slightly different perspective.

 

Yes the C-Max is a “problematic car” to be sure for some people (1 in 50, 1 in 100, 1 in 1000 ???), whatever “problematic” might mean to each of us; so too are BMWs, Mercedes Benzs, Toyotas, Chevs, ………………… ; but, it is not that for all of us. For many of us the C-Max is a dream car (engineering marvel / back loving orthopedic solution / tall person ……………………..) Recognizing its’ unique features & value places it in a much different place than just another “problematic car”. We love our essentially problem free C-Max, and like all first & second year buyers, ‘knock on wood’ for continued reliability.

 

As far as recalls, I would describe your 2 recall first year high tech, hybrid system car an incredible ‘home run’. Combining ‘recalls’ with service schedules makes them a non-issue in most respects for most of us. The latest GM recall involves deaths and congressional investigations I believe – let’s keep some perspective on our recalls.

 

Thanks as always for all of your great contributions here – I very much appreciate them,

 

Greatest sympathies to the Stouts and hoping their issues are resolved soon, or they are freed from their ‘lemon’.  (unless she is a troll)

 

Nick  (with fewer miles driven, I recognize I have very limited credentials for contributing here)

(Have generally always disliked Fords, I have only owned one Ford, no particular grudges against any car makers. No relatives in Ford, no Ford stock unless in a mutual stock fund)

Edited May 23, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[plus 3 golfer]

Ford ranks below average in the JD Powers surveys likely because of all the trips to the dealer to fix issues.  I only had 3 trips to the dealer (and am not counting the MFT/Sync update I did at home.)  That's really 2 too many in one year (the musty air is a known issue for a/c systems and is easily remedied).  Now I don't have Navigation or the foot operated lift gate which for those that do likely resulted in more trips to the dealer.  Now for the unlucky few that have 12 V battery problems, the trips might double.  Point being trips to the dealer for whatever reason indicates the cars are problematic for the owners and will likely affect the surveys no matter what the severity is of the issue. 

 

Now if we look at reliability, CR surveys shows a 1/2 black circle (below average for the Electrical System) which is likely driven by the 12 V battery issue and a full black circle (much worse than average) for the Audio which we know the reasons why (just read the threads here).  Now if we look at the owners of EV, PHEV and HEV vehicles would buy again, 67% said yes for the Hybrid but this is 4th from the bottom.  The Optima, Sonata and Insight are lower.  But the Energi is third from the top at 84% with only Telsa and the Volt higher.  Could the reason be the 12 V issue which appears to be more prevalent on the Hybrid (and the SE models as that's where most of Ford's fixes seem to be targeted towards).

 

I am by no means unhappy.  As I've said many times I like my C-Max. I knew when I purchased in Dec 2012 that I would not get 47 mpg on average and expected around 40+ish which is what I'm getting.  But to some 47 mpg is an issue and  I have a feeling that the 12 V issue is a lot more prevalent than we see on this forum.  So, I had to respond to mtb9153 as the C-Max is a below average car for many consumers compared to the field and it started with Ford's 47 mpg debacle.  There are a lot of consumers that love their Prii for their mileage and reliability and the surveys show this.  But you couldn't get me to buy a Prius over a C-Max.        

[plus 3 golfer]

Also, with respect to what is "problematic", lest we forget (as was posted on June 20, 2013) this JD Powers survey shows Ford well below average.  Here's the survey results on the C-Max and repeated below.  

 

Also Ford is just below average in JD Powers 2014 Dependability Survey of 2011 vehicles (includes 3 years of ownership).  We'll likely have to wait 2 more years to have the C-Max included in the Dependability Survey. 

 

The C-Max had 222 manufacturing flubs or design flaws per 100 vehicles in the survey, nearly twice the industry average of 113.

 

 

[BIG ROCCO]

What is a lemon, anyway?  I think it's a very trouble prone car which has problems that, to date, have not been fixable, or are fixed and then reoccur/reappear.

 

Based on the original post, is that example of a C-Max a lemon, or representative of what we should expect of a C-Max or what we should expect of Ford?

 

We've only gone 8,000 miles in 10 months, but have only needed to return to the dealer for the updates - never for a problem or repair.  Our lifetime MPG is around 45 MPG, with a lot of it highway driving...sure, less than the EPA #s, but who believes that nonsense anyway? 

[mtb9153]

I don't feel this should be expected of a CMax or from Ford.  My early SEL Sept, 2013 has not given me any battery problems.  To date my only unresolved issue is the MFT not wanting to sync and take hands free phone calls through my iPhone 5.  The software updates are not an issue with me either.  As for the one kick tailgate problem, it has been resolved by the update.  I'm very happy with Maxus despite these hiccups

Edited March 12, 2014 by mtb9153

[fbov]

I am pretty sensitive by nature and nothing anyone has written has been offensive from what I can see. ...

I agree, this is a very civil group.  I'm talking about the next level of a good forum - attractiveness.

 

"While the OP is venting frustation rather than requesting assistance, I'd like to think we can respond in a freindly and courteous manner to a first-time poster, regardless the content of their post."

 

When you're the first responder to a thread, you know it. The screen's blank. Look a little and you know it's a first post. Respond nicely, find out their areas of interest and degree of technical understanding, provide some useful resources if it seems appropriate so they get some value for their investment in a first post.

 

"You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." I was tasting vinegar... but I also think this was a 1-time poster. Cie la vie!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

I don't feel this should be expected of a CMax or from Ford.  My early SEL Sept, 2013 has not given me any battery problems.  To date my only unresolved issue is the MFT not wanting to sync and take hands free phone calls through my iPhone 5.  The software updates are not an issue with me either.  As for the one kick tailgate problem, it has been resolved by the update.  I'm very happy with Maxus despite these hiccups

I'm not sure what you really mean but I (and likely many) expect Ford to fix issues when paying $25k+ for a vehicle and to build cars with fewer issues not more than the average. Customers want products like MFT but it's got to work.

 

All vehicles have issues but the C-Max has significantly more than others.  Brand loyalty is highly dependent on issues and past dependability results affect prospective buyers' purchase decisions (see quote below from JD Powers.)  Everyone is not married to the same brand purchase after purchase.  So, it's not about whether one can overlook an issue(s) and be happy with a purchase.  It's about the manufacturer (Ford in this case) fixing issues and selling products that "beat" the competition in initial quality and dependability.  What would Ford's C-Max sales be like if the car really got on average 47 mpg and was a class leader in initial quality surveys and ultimately in dependability and what would resale value be like?

 

We as individuals will make our own judgements on the C-Max and whether we purchase another Ford product in the near future.  But the results of surveys have to weigh on Ford.  

 

 

Dependability Leads to Loyalty; Poor Dependability Creates Avoidance

J.D. Power also finds that the fewer problems owners experience with their vehicle, the greater their loyalty to the brand. Combined data from previous years' VDS results and vehicle trade-in data from the Power Information NetworkÆ (PIN) from J.D. Power show that 56 percent of owners who reported no problems stayed with the same brand when they purchased their next new vehicle. Brand loyalty slipped to just 42 percent among owners who reported three or more problems.

 

Also, a comparison of data from the 2013 Vehicle Dependability Study with data from the subsequent J.D. Power 2014 U.S. Avoider StudySM shows that consumers are much more likely to avoid vehicles from brands that rank lower in dependability. On average, 23 percent of consumers avoided brands that ranked in the lowest quartile of the 2013 VDS because of concerns about reliability. In contrast, only 9 percent of consumers cited that same reason for avoiding brands that ranked in the top quartile.

 

"By combining our customer research with trade-in data, we see a very strong correlation between dependability and real-world brand loyalty," said Sargent. "Also, we see that brands with lower dependability are likely to be shut out of a significant piece of the market, as many consumers will not even consider purchasing one of their vehicles because of concerns about its likely reliability."

 

 

[AS2014]

Hi all,

As I said before ,I been having my car for over a year it is a SE , with 18,000 miles and I have to say no problems at all. You will bring in this car to get service more often than others because of its technology , as for the above who looking for a lemon law, the car has 36, 000 miles on it, that's a lot of wear and tear on a car that's only a yr old. I do not see that happening , understand they did have problems, but from what I read it was not the same problem each time. Sounds like to me they got a bum dealership working on their car, if that was me I would have called Ford right at the beginning or went to a differrent Ford dealership.I do not get 47, to be honest but what I get I am very happy 44 in city and 42 on interstate. My truck was 18 on interstate and 12 in city. Again I wish the above poster all the best.. Brought my car in Feb 13 and del date was Jan 13. But for you to say to the forum not to buy a CMax is not right, yes you have your opinion, but as a CMax owner I do too. Thanks.....

[C-MaxSea]

So glad you have reiterated your points P3G for the ____ teenth time.  So glad there are a few brave souls willing to judge a car for themselves, and give relative weight to the so called facts of our self appointed 'fact' (often impression) keepers - CR & JDP.  They only measure very limited aspects of a vehicle & its' ownership criteria. 

 

Surveys are surveys, and subject to radical departures based on misinformation, misunderstanding, ....................... not to mention the psychology of expectation.  (expecting 10, get a 9 - not happy, lash out;  expecting a 5 and get 7 - exceedingly happy ..............  regardless, 9 exceeds 7)

 

I am reminded of how easy it is to mislead with statistics - chopped graphs, 'push' polls, ..........................  Yes CR & JDP mean well (at least I assume), and yes some of their information is very meaningful, but they are woefully misleading at times, and more importantly incomplete as to what constitutes a desirable vehicle to many.

 

I can't imagine why you still drive your C-Max P3G with all of those terrible 'facts' on the table - glad you do!  I know I would never have driven our Volvo to 300,000 miles if I had paid attention to the truth keepers - lots of upkeep, but the best car we have ever owned (probably still on the road with 500,000 miles by now).

 

Best regards,

 

Nick 

 

(If only we all drove a Skoda like the authorities 'recommended' - Nah, long live imperfect & sometimes innovative choices)

Edited May 23, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[plus 3 golfer]

Hi all,

...... But for you to say to the forum not to buy a CMax is not right, yes you have your opinion, but as a CMax owner I do too. Thanks.....

Yes, I agree that the OP saying: "Stay away From the CMAX People" is tantamount to being a troll.  I hope that was not the OP's intention.

 

IMO, criticism of a product (supported by facts) drives change.  But, give the facts and let each individual decide their course of action. 

 

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

 

Winston Churchill

 

[plus 3 golfer]

So glad you have reiterated your points P3G for the ____ teenth time.  So glad there are a few brave souls willing to judge a car for themselves, and give relative weight to the 'hard' facts of our self appointed 'fact' (often impression) keepers - CR & JDP.  They only measure very limited aspects of a vehicle & its' ownership criteria. 

 

Surveys are surveys, and subject to radical departures based on misinformation, misunderstanding, ....................... not to mention the psychology of expectation.  (expecting 10, get a 9 - not happy, lash out;  expecting a 5 and get 7 - exceedingly happy ..............  regardless, 9 exceeds 7)

 

I am reminded of how easy it is to mislead with statistics - chopped graphs, 'push' polls, ..........................  Yes CR & JDP mean well (at least I assume), and yes some of their information is very meaningful, but they are woefully misleading at times, and more importantly incomplete as to what constitutes a desirable vehicle to many.

 

I can't imagine why you still drive your C-Max P3G with all of those terrible 'facts' on the table - glad you do!  I know I would never have driven our Volvo to 300,000 miles if I had paid attention to the truth keepers - lots of upkeep, but the best car we have ever owned (probably still on the road with 500,000 miles by now).

 

Best regards,

 

Nick 

 

(If only we all drove a Skoda like the authorities 'recommended' - Nah, long live imperfect & sometimes innovative choices)

Because people seem to think this forum is Facebook where one selects their friends and only "good" things are said. :)  I knew it was only a matter of time before JD and CR were thrown under the bus and the data would be questioned. :)  Shouldn't everyone have access to ALL data and make their own decision.

 

Well my Volvo 164E had a body leak that the dealer couldn't find / fix. Every time I drove it in a downpour (SW PA) the left side of the floor boards filled with water.  There was no buybacks then. So when there was a forecast of heavy rain, I didn't drive it.  I ended up getting rid of it at 28k miles for a loss of $500.  And guess what I haven't owned a Volvo since even though it was one of the best cars I've owned.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[C-MaxSea]

Sounds like we are a perfect compliment in perspectives P3G.  That works.  :). 

 

I would never (well at least not every day) throw CR or JDP under the bus, as I said they have meaningful data - taken in perspective. I would disagree about the forum.  This is hardly a C-Max love fest here, rather a very self critical, helpful forum discussing some of the good things, learning tools, work-a-rounds, customizing  ..... ;  but with a heavy dose of glitches along the way. (ideally based on specific questions, concerns, issues, ...........................)  Thankfully Ford finally heard our pleas and came on board.

 

Too bad on the 164, maybe it was the dealer (I sure would not know), ours was a 244 and stellar - not for upkeep (reliability), just a great car in every other way! 

 

Nick

Edited March 12, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[plus 3 golfer]

Yep, forums need to hear all sides.

 

We really liked the 164.  I spent many weekend with a hose throwing water everywhere and no water would enter the cabin.  I had everything pulled out of the cabin that was easy to remove.  IIRC, it did not have a belly pan or inner fenders.  So, my theory was during heavy downpours, the tires sprayed water underneath / against the firewall and there was a way for the water to get in on the driver's side (maybe around the steering wheel penetration, a/c penetration and so forth).  Could have simply been a missing gasket but I couldn't see it and the dealer never could find the problem in about 4-5 attempts.

 

We almost bought an 1800es in this color instead of the 164e in a deep burgundy.  IMO, the 1800es is a classic. I'm not sure the 240 series was out in 1973 when we made the purchase.

[salprint]

Really sad to hear that you don't like your C-Max and that you are having so much trouble.  I've owned a lot of new cars in my life....from economy cars to luxury Jaguars, and from sports cars to big muscle car Mustangs.  I really loved the muscle cars and hope to have another one some day.  But it wouldn't be at the loss of my C-Max.  I absolutely love this car and can't see myself parting with it for anything.  I love the technology and just the overall "feel" of the car.  If I do get another muscle car, it will be "in addition" to my C-Max.  I just won't part with this car.  So I get very disappointed if thats the right word, when I hear someone who dislikes the car.  I have high hopes for American cars, and I really want the buying public to change their opinion of the quality of them.  I've been buying Fords for years and I'll put their quality up against any foreign car any day of the week.  So...sorry to hear you got a bad one, I hope it was a rare thing.

[BIG ROCCO]

So, I guess we do agree that the OP's experience is not representative of whole C-Max population?  Would we say it has a few more issues than normal or would we go so far as to say it's a lemon?