MY CMAX is a lemon

[FordService]

I own 2 C-Max (2013) and both have been in and out of the dealer for various problems and recalls.

 

One (Red) of them is currently at the dealer because the 12volt battery kept going dead.   The dealer told my wife she needed to drive it more.   She typically only drives 10 miles a day.

 

I'm afraid that would not explain the 12 volt battery issue though.  I charged it up on a Friday evening, then she didn't try to drive it until Sunday and the battery was dead on her.   No lights are on, doors are fully shut.

 

My silver one did that once as well, and I drive 50 miles a day.  I'm thinking about putting a battery tender on hers, specially for the winter time.

 

ps. the dealer has replaced the the battery in the red one twice, and once in the silver car.

Driving (and braking) recharges the battery; your dealer is correct that driving more will help keep the charge. They'll be able to explain this further. Please keep me in the loop with this.

 

What is a CSP?

Customer Satisfaction Program (but who the heck really knows what *that* means?)

Customer Satisfaction Program

There are several designations that have to do with urgency, likelihood of change, technical nature, and safety.

FSA, TSB, ISM,and SSM are a few others.

Field Service Action

Technical Service Bulletin

 

Hi guys,

 

Here are some definitions:

 

TSB: A Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) is a supplement to a vehicle's repair manual and does not suggest nor provide

additional coverage. Coverage of any repair is determined by eligibility under the provisions of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, a Customer Satisfaction Program or a Recall.

 

CSP: A Customer Satisfaction Program (CSP) is an available upgrade to a specific component or an extension of an

existing warranty. Customer Satisfaction Programs are VIN specific and time and mileage limitations do apply. A dealership must review a customer's original receipts to determine if a refund for repairs completed prior to a program announcement can be applied for.  All refund requests must be submitted through the dealership. Depending upon the type of Customer Satisfaction Program launched, concerns may or may not need to be present in order for the repair to be completed. A CSP is NOT a recall.

 

FSA: Field Service Action - another name for recalls and CSP's.

 

Recall: Ford Motor Company and the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA) work together to

proactively identify areas of concern through investigation of consumer and dealer feedback. During an investigation Ford co-operates fully with NHTSA. Due to our rigorous safety standards and constant testing, not all issues result in recall or customer satisfaction programs.

 

Ford Motor Company will repair those vehicles specifically mentioned in a recall announcement and programs are VIN specific. If a program is announced on a specific component, Ford will notify you by mail. Should you receive a letter, we suggest you contact your dealer as soon as possible to schedule an appointment. All recall repairs must be completed by an authorized Ford or Lincoln Dealer and will be performed at no charge.

Federal law requires dealers to complete safety recall service before delivering a new vehicle to a buyer or lessee (this federal law does not apply to used or certified pre-owned vehicles).  

 

In order to receive a refund, the vehicle's owner will need to submit the original repair receipts to any Ford or Lincoln dealer in the U.S. for review. Repairs completed at a non-Ford dealer are not eligible for reimbursement unless the owner paid for the repair prior to the recall announcement. It can take up to 60 days to process refunds.

 

Provisions for rental vehicles vary by recall program and the owner letter received will provide loaner details of a loaner provision if included.  Your local Ford dealer will also have details on rentals associated with recall programs.

 

If the vehicle is overseas, these repairs can be completed at the nearest Ford or Lincoln dealer in the host country.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Meagan

Edited June 2, 2015 by FordService

[ptjones]

I still think some of these dead 12v battery problems are caused by inadvertently leaving the car in accessory position on SEL's, I have caught myself a few times, you would have to have left the keys in the ignition for the SE for this to happen.  ;)

 

Paul

[Kelleytoons]

Megan,

 

If you know your VIN is part of a CSP but you have not gotten a letter from your dealer is it okay to just contact them and request they do the fix?  I do not have issues, and I know this particular CSP is active until next May, but if I never get a letter I want to be sure I get this thing reprogrammed correctly (so I could just wait for my first oil change, for example, if it's okay to request that change be done then).

[FordService]

I still think some of these dead 12v battery problems are caused by inadvertently leaving the car in accessory position on SEL's, I have caught myself a few times, you would have to have left the keys in the ignition for the SE for this to happen.  ;)

 

Paul

 That's a valid  point, ptjones. The Owner Manual mentions not leaving your key in the ignition for too long for this very reason.

 

Megan,

 

If you know your VIN is part of a CSP but you have not gotten a letter from your dealer is it okay to just contact them and request they do the fix?  I do not have issues, and I know this particular CSP is active until next May, but if I never get a letter I want to be sure I get this thing reprogrammed correctly (so I could just wait for my first oil change, for example, if it's okay to request that change be done then).

You sure can! It's usually a good idea to wait on the letter because it gives the dealer a chance to get their own letters and parts, but by all means, you can contact them if you know you're included. Just be aware that they may not be ready to tackle it just yet. :)

 

Meagan

[Kelleytoons]

Thanks, Meagan.  I'll most likely wait then at least until my first oil change (probably in two more months or so) and if they haven't sent me a letter by then I'll contact them first and see what's up.

[raadsel]

I still think some of these dead 12v battery problems are caused by inadvertently leaving the car in accessory position on SEL's, I have caught myself a few times, you would have to have left the keys in the ignition for the SE for this to happen.  ;)

 

Paul

 

As I understand it, the SEL has no accessory position. Instead, it is either "On" or off -- on in quotes because On is both ready to drive or all systems on but where the engine and motor will not turn on (depending on if you hit the brake pedal). It doesn't have an accessory position, like the SE, where only entertainment turns on.

 

If I understand correctly, On but not ready to drive can kill the 12V battery, but only after it has drained the HV battery; the HV battery will keep the 12V charged until it runs out of charge. Of course, if the car is On and ready to drive (if you actually forget to turn the car off), then the 12V will stay charged until the car runs out of gas; since the car will keep turning the ICE on to keep the HVB charged.

Edited June 3, 2015 by raadsel

[stevedebi]

As I understand it, the SEL has no accessory position. Instead, it is either "On" or off -- on in quotes because On is both ready to drive or all systems on but where the engine and motor will not turn on (depending on if you hit the brake pedal). It doesn't have an accessory position, like the SE, where only entertainment turns on.

 

If I understand correctly, On but not ready to drive can kill the 12V battery, but only after it has drained the HV battery; the HV battery will keep the 12V charged until it runs out of charge. Of course, if the car is On and ready to drive (if you actually forget to turn the car off), then the 12V will stay charged until the car runs out of gas; since the car will keep turning the ICE on to keep the HVB charged.

Hitting the ON button without having your foot on the brake is equivilent to the accessory position. It powers up the electronics but does not allow the propulsion to start up.

[raadsel]

Hitting the ON button without having your foot on the brake is equivilent to the accessory position. It powers up the electronics but does not allow the propulsion to start up.

 

It is not equivalent to the accessory position. C-Maxes with a key actually have a third setting, Accessory, which basically only powers the radio/MFT. It does not power the other displays on the dash, the climate control, etc. It then has an On position, which is similar to pressing the start/stop button without pushing the brake pedal -- this powers all the electrical systems but, as you note, does not provide propulsion. The key then has a third position, Start, which is like pushing the Start/Stop button with the brake depressed.

 

As I understand the difference, Accessory does not connect the HVB, it runs solely off the 12V battery -- though it does have a lower draw since it is only powering the radio. By contrast, when "On" (without going to start, with the key, or holding the brake) the HVB is connected, just that it cannot be recharged by the ICE, but it will continue to recharge the 12V battery until the HVB battery's power state gets too low. How long the battery will last depends on the draw of the car and the charge level of the HVB, but since all systems are on -- radio, climate, all computers, etc. -- there is a much greater draw on the batteries.

 

While I understand you might feel this is semantics, it can cause issues for some activities with an SEL. For example, if you want to add an address into your Nav unit, with keyless entry the car must be "On" to do this; with an SE you can put it in accessory and not have everything on. Another example is going to a drive in movie, where the sound is transmitted over FM radio; with an SE you can put it in accessory and easily play it through the car radio, with the SEL you will have difficulty using the car radio (since the car will be "on", including all the dash lights, even if it can't be driven). 

[FordService]

Thanks, Meagan.  I'll most likely wait then at least until my first oil change (probably in two more months or so) and if they haven't sent me a letter by then I'll contact them first and see what's up.

Sounds good. Keep me in the loop! :)

 

Meagan

[ptjones]

As I understand it, the SEL has no accessory position. Instead, it is either "On" or off -- on in quotes because On is both ready to drive or all systems on but where the engine and motor will not turn on (depending on if you hit the brake pedal). It doesn't have an accessory position, like the SE, where only entertainment turns on.

 

If I understand correctly, On but not ready to drive can kill the 12V battery, but only after it has drained the HV battery; the HV battery will keep the 12V charged until it runs out of charge. Of course, if the car is On and ready to drive (if you actually forget to turn the car off), then the 12V will stay charged until the car runs out of gas; since the car will keep turning the ICE on to keep the HVB charged.

SEL in the on position will only deplete the HVB so much and then stop, because you can jump start the car with a 12v battery to get the computers going and then the HVB starts the car. I had that happen once to my car. :)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

It is not equivalent to the accessory position. C-Maxes with a key actually have a third setting, Accessory, which basically only powers the radio/MFT. It does not power the other displays on the dash, the climate control, etc. It then has an On position, which is similar to pressing the start/stop button without pushing the brake pedal -- this powers all the electrical systems but, as you note, does not provide propulsion. The key then has a third position, Start, which is like pushing the Start/Stop button with the brake depressed.

 

As I understand the difference, Accessory does not connect the HVB, it runs solely off the 12V battery -- though it does have a lower draw since it is only powering the radio. By contrast, when "On" (without going to start, with the key, or holding the brake) the HVB is connected, just that it cannot be recharged by the ICE, but it will continue to recharge the 12V battery until the HVB battery's power state gets too low. How long the battery will last depends on the draw of the car and the charge level of the HVB, but since all systems are on -- radio, climate, all computers, etc. -- there is a much greater draw on the batteries.

 

While I understand you might feel this is semantics, it can cause issues for some activities with an SEL. For example, if you want to add an address into your Nav unit, with keyless entry the car must be "On" to do this; with an SE you can put it in accessory and not have everything on. Another example is going to a drive in movie, where the sound is transmitted over FM radio; with an SE you can put it in accessory and easily play it through the car radio, with the SEL you will have difficulty using the car radio (since the car will be "on", including all the dash lights, even if it can't be driven). 

No problem here. I see your point on the difference. What you can do is turn it on, then turn it off. With the doors closed that gives you 10 minutes of power for the radio.

 

Some people (including dealers) seem to forget that the C-Max has to keep some power running at all times. To keep the door sensors for the keyless entry enabled, for example. It isn't much power, but the car does need to be driven periodically. I recall the owners' manual indicating once every three days or so, but I haven't read the manual lately (and I drive mine every day).

[TheBearAK]

Driving (and braking) recharges the battery; your dealer is correct that driving more will help keep the charge. They'll be able to explain this further. Please keep me in the loop with this.

 

 

Wrong battery.   The main, what I call the Drive battery, is fine.    The "start" battery is the one that goes dead on us.  Car is completely dead, cannot open the back, no lights and it will not start.  I carry a booster battery with me everywhere.

 

ps.  Wife went to pick up the Red C-Max and it wouldn't start.  It is still there.

Edited June 4, 2015 by TheBearAK

[Robert Fugate]

You're not helping your case, if you use a booster battery everywhere you go. Unless you're going to live with it until you sell the car. Either keep contacting Ford about needing a jump/tow so they can possibly fix it, or check your state about your rights as far as it being a lemon.

[cheezy]

What is a lemon, anyway?  I think it's a very trouble prone car which has problems that, to date, have not been fixable, or are fixed and then reoccur/reappear.

 

Based on the original post, is that example of a C-Max a lemon, or representative of what we should expect of a C-Max or what we should expect of Ford?

 

 

 

 

Necro.

 

You are correct, there are certain parameters involved in the actual lemon law, and as described they are not met. 

 

It IS rather unbelievable that a Historical owner, self-reporting owning 6 previous Ford vehicles, does not know of a decent dealer and/or is NEVER buying another Ford vehicle again. Notice the band wagon filled up though........ :drool:  

[Jenie Benson]

Wondering if the original poster of this thread ever did get a buy back...

[Adrian_L]

This thread is as old as the Pinto.  The credibility of the OP was brought into question as she only made one post and never responded to any comments.

 

I suggest we put this one to bed.

[plus 3 golfer]

xx 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Jus-A-CMax]

Locking, there is no benefit of this thread. There are numerous other threads for the other CMax issues and postings should be made there, where it is relevant. Thanks :)